VOGONS


VGA Capture Thread

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Reply 880 of 949, by Tree Wyrm

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Yeah, well, that's analog VGA capturing, it was never going to be easy. We are lucky though there are good solutions, like aforementioned Datapath cards. I think I have G450 PCI with DVI as well, though being a recent item I got I haven't been able to give it a good test run yet. In my experience those old DVI cards each have some quirk, most common seem to be slow reaction to mode/resolution switch, some are unable to handle 70Hz and so forth. There's also Savage4 Pro OEM with DVI, might be better option regarding compatibility, it also uses early DVI spec and does only integer scaling AFAIK.

Reply 881 of 949, by darry

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appiah4 wrote on 2020-09-25, 12:40:

This is still so damn overcomplicated for what it is..

Question: My Matrox G450's DVI port outputs at 640x480@70Hz in DOS and the DOS image is letterboxed as 640x400 with empty pixels at top and bottom, so it is basically upscaled by 2x with no filters. Is this not a perfect way to capture DOS output from a digital source? (Matrox G450's compatibility issues with some really old games aside..)

Well, it should be quite nice for capturing, but will require cropping (minor concern) . Probably not ideal for playing, though (squished image), unless the VGA output mirrors it without letterboxing, then you could use that to actually play .

Can you post some captures ?

I have a G550, which probably works similarly, but I never bothered to test much because 640x4800 was less than ideal for playing . I do now wonder a bit how it handles 720x400 text mode, though .

Reply 882 of 949, by darry

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Got my E1S . It works great, but I need to set refresh and resolution manually for the capture pin in Virtualdub2, even though the capture filter detects and displays the proper values .

Upon capturing 1600x1200 from Voodoo 3 in passthrough through OSSC, I see VGA ghosting in the capture . This ghosting is practically invisible on my display monitor, but easy to see in the capture I am using an HDMI spliiter) . Capturing 1280x960 in the same setup give a perfect ghosting free image . Capturing 1600x1200 from my FX 5900's DVI out (running through same HDMI spliiter), is also perfect .

I have ordered another VGA cable, hopefully that will fix it. Then again, capturing over 1024x768 from a Voodoo 3 will probably no happen very often .

EDIT : My 1280x960 is actually line-doubled 640x480 .
640x480 line doubled to 1280x960 :

1280x960.png
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1280x960.png
File size
189.11 KiB
Views
334 views
File license
Public domain
1280x960_detail_e1s.png
Filename
1280x960_detail_e1s.png
File size
23.88 KiB
Views
334 views
File license
Public domain

1600x1200:

1600x1200.png
Filename
1600x1200.png
File size
1.11 MiB
Views
334 views
File license
Public domain
1600x1200_detail_e1s.png
Filename
1600x1200_detail_e1s.png
File size
15.58 KiB
Views
334 views
File license
Public domain

Reply 884 of 949, by darry

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maxtherabbit wrote on 2020-09-28, 00:52:

I'd recommend going vga directly into the data path, there is no benefit to using the ossc to digitize

The (potential) benefit is indirect. By using the OSSC, I don't need to split VGA and can split HDMI instead . I was hoping to cut down on analogue signal loss this way. In addition to splitting VGA, to reach the E1S, I would need to use a VGA cable longer than 6 feet . Finally, controlling digitization settings on the OSSC is convenient .

If it turns out that I can't get reasonable results by running VGA to the OSSC and then HDMI/DVI to the E1S, I will try connecting VGA to the E1S through a powered splitter .

Reply 885 of 949, by maxtherabbit

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there is no measurable loss using quality analog distribution hardware and ~~COAX~~ cables (extron again here)

(1600x1200 at anything beyond 60Hz exceeds the bandwidth of the OSSC btw)

even with a 6' cable you still should only use coax for VGA, especially with >480p signals

Reply 886 of 949, by TorqueDaisy

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Currently using an Avermedia C127 I picked up for dirt cheap off eBay along with a Gefen upscaler, the setup works pretty well, kind of a shame the Avermedia can only capture 60fps if the input resolution is 720p though. The screen tears a bit in captured video occasionally but I'm not sure if it's a fault of the capture card or the Voodoo3, not a huge issue though.

Video capture:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlCeVqRgHc8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkVKXJZWElo

Screenshots:
I0IIoQL.jpg

WuGEP53.png

fbfUIjb.png

FOzqk7B.png

Reply 887 of 949, by darry

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I need help .

I have a Datapath E1S in in a Core i9 9900K base machine (Gigabyte Z390 AORUS MASTER motherboard) with 64GB RAM and a Geforce RTX 2070 running under Windows 10 Pro
The card is inserted in the second PCI Express x16 physical slot, which maxes out at x8.
E1S is currently running at PCI Express 1.1 x4 (as confirmed by HWINFO)

I keep getting bursts of inserted frames. Whether I am capturing from a Geforce FX 5900 DVI at 1600x1200@70HZ, a Voodoo 3 running at 1280x800@70Hz through OSSC (line doubled 640x400@70Hz) or a Voodoo 3 running at 1280x960@60Hz through OSSC (line doubled 640x480@60Hz) . This happens regardless of whether I set the E1S to YUY2 or RGB32 (setting to RGB24 gives a garbled mess).

i am capturing using Virtualdub2 (latest build, but tried an older one too) using FFMPEG HUFFYUV codec in RGB mode .

I have tried setting framerate to the fractional values that the VCS detects (i.e. 70.08Hz), but that changes nothing (I still get bursts of inserted frames) .

The kicker is that, if I capture using a Cam Link 4K USB device, I get perfect results (no frames lost or inserted), but am limited to YUY2 .

I have tried both the most recent driver and the previous release of the E1S driver .

Does anybody have any ideas ?

In desperation, I am about to try capturing under Linux .

EDIT : I doubt that this will change anything, but I have a an Ezcoo brand 3x2 HDMI switch and splitter on the way . i will try with that once I receive it .

Last edited by darry on 2020-09-28, 03:39. Edited 2 times in total.

Reply 888 of 949, by darry

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darry wrote on 2020-09-28, 03:34:
I need help . […]
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I need help .

I have a Datapath E1S in in a Core i9 9900K base machine (Gigabyte Z390 AORUS MASTER motherboard) with 64GB RAM and a Geforce RTX 2070 running under Windows 10 Pro
The card is inserted in the second PCI Express x16 physical slot, which maxes out at x8.
E1S is currently running at PCI Express 1.1 x4 (as confirmed by HWINFO)

I keep getting bursts of inserted frames. Whether I am capturing from a Geforce FX 5900 DVI at 1600x1200@70HZ, a Voodoo 3 running at 1280x800@70Hz through OSSC (line doubled 640x400@70Hz) or a Voodoo 3 running at 1280x960@60Hz through OSSC (line doubled 640x480@60Hz) . This happens regardless of whether I set the E1S to YUY2 or RGB32 (setting to RGB24 gives a garbled mess).

i am capturing using Virtualdub2 (latest build, but tried an older one too) using FFMPEG HUFFYUV codec in RGB mode .

I have tried setting framerate to the fractional values that the VCS detects (i.e. 70.08Hz), but that changes nothing (I still get bursts of inserted frames) .

The kicker is that, if I capture using a Cam Link 4K USB device, I get perfect results (no frames lost or inserted), but am limited to YUY2 .

I have tried both the most recent driver and the previous release of the E1S driver .

Does anybody have any ideas ?

In desperation, I am about to try capturing under Linux .

EDIT : I doubt that this will change anything, but I have a an Ezcoo brand 3x2 HDMI switch and splitter on the way . i will try with that once I receive it .

A combination of increasing disk buffers and using x264 compression in Zero latency, lossless, RGB mode seems to have resolved all of my issues . I am capturing to my usual scratch pad, a RAID 0 array composed of two Samsung HD204UI drives. I should probably consider upgrading those at some point .

Reply 889 of 949, by darry

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maxtherabbit wrote on 2020-09-28, 02:31:

there is no measurable loss using quality analog distribution hardware and ~~COAX~~ cables (extron again here)

(1600x1200 at anything beyond 60Hz exceeds the bandwidth of the OSSC btw)

even with a 6' cable you still should only use coax for VGA, especially with >480p signals

I am keeping my Voodoo 3 at or below 1600x1200@60Hz . The VGA cables that I have on order should have coaxial conductors . The VGA splitter that I have I have is a Startech unit rated at 350MHz, so I should be OK if I end up needing to use it .

The VGA cable that I am currently using looks good (thick, two ferrite chokes), but it is a thrift store purchase, so it may not actually be that great . Considering the fact that VGA, and most analogue connections as well, are on their way out of the market, I prefer to switch to the digital domain as soon as possible .

Reply 891 of 949, by darry

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maxtherabbit wrote on 2020-09-28, 12:53:

The more the market turns it's back on things, the more desirable they become to me. I am also a floppy disk enthusiast

I do that too, to a point . When connecting retro gear to the modern world, I try to not be reliant on parts that will eventually be hard to replace when/if they fail . I would rather digitize VGA ASAP as possible in my usage workflow, because HDMI cables are cheap and plentiful, as are HDMI switches and splitters . If I used CRTs, I would likelt see things differently .

I do like retro audio gear though and am using a 23-year old digital multi-track recorder as a mixer and will likely upgrade to another only slightly newer one .

Reply 892 of 949, by darry

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An affordable (79 US$) HDMI USB video capture "card" from a rather high-key player .

Sparsely documented, but it apparently supports YUV and JPEG capture, but nothing about sub-sampling, supported resolutions or refresh rates (other than 1080p@60Hz).

https://www.dpreview.com/news/1049485293/atom … o-usb-streaming

https://downloads.atomos.com/connect-4k/CONNE … ecsheet-web.pdf

EDIT: Not VGA capable, but might be an option with the right digitizer/scaler . I will not be buying one unless it turns out it handles RGB24 at 70Hz in/out .

Reply 893 of 949, by debnie

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I'm searching for advice for buying a USB VGA capture card. The main goal is not quality but compatibility.
It's going to be used on many different machines (computers) so a wide support for resolutions and refresh rates is necessary.
I've bought a Startech USB3HDCAP which works but has problems with multiple resolutions/refresh rates (captured image is black and a CRT just works).

The main problem is when going into the BIOS settings or low resolution DOS programs.

Quality and distortion is not important, as long as it is readable.

Should I look into an OSSC?

Reply 894 of 949, by leileilol

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VGA capture request for Voodoo B/3 owners:

Half-Life at 320x240/400x300 on OpenGL (default) and Direct3D, preferably subtransit's spawn points

Quake2 at q2dm1's dark red lights spawn point at 640x480

Official drivers if possible (for the least underthehood cult cruft changes)

(I just want a reference regarding certain filter behaviors at low resolutions 3dfx fans don't use)

apsosig.png

Reply 895 of 949, by darry

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leileilol wrote on 2020-10-02, 01:57:
VGA capture request for Voodoo B/3 owners: […]
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VGA capture request for Voodoo B/3 owners:

Half-Life at 320x240/400x300 on OpenGL (default) and Direct3D, preferably subtransit's spawn points

Quake2 at q2dm1's dark red lights spawn point at 640x480

Official drivers if possible (for the least underthehood cult cruft changes)

(I just want a reference regarding certain filter behaviors at low resolutions 3dfx fans don't use)

Time allowing, I will try to do the Quake 2 one this weekend, unless someone beats me to it . I am running latest stock drivers on my Voodoo 3 .

EDIT : Capture will be in RGB24 through an OSSC feeding a Datapah E1S . Also, you just want an image at the spawn point, not video, correct ?

Last edited by darry on 2020-10-02, 16:02. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 896 of 949, by darry

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debnie wrote on 2020-10-01, 08:32:
I'm searching for advice for buying a USB VGA capture card. The main goal is not quality but compatibility. It's going to be use […]
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I'm searching for advice for buying a USB VGA capture card. The main goal is not quality but compatibility.
It's going to be used on many different machines (computers) so a wide support for resolutions and refresh rates is necessary.
I've bought a Startech USB3HDCAP which works but has problems with multiple resolutions/refresh rates (captured image is black and a CRT just works).

The main problem is when going into the BIOS settings or low resolution DOS programs.

Quality and distortion is not important, as long as it is readable.

Should I look into an OSSC?

The problem I see with most USB VGA capture solutions is that they do not support 70Hz modes . One that should work is the Epiphan AV.io HD, but it is not cheap .

An OSSC with an HDMI USB capture card could be an option . I have tried such a combo (OSSC + Cam Link 4K), and it does work fine, except for the chroma sub-sampling (practically a non issue if you intend to render to a sub-sampled compressed video format anyway, IMHO), if you use line2x mode (which is lossless) on the OSSC . The combined cost is rather high, but lower than an Epiphan AV.io HD .

Be careful about using cheap USB HDMI/DVI capture cards as at least some (maybe most?) of them will not handle DOS VGA resolutions and/or a 70Hz refresh rate .

Reply 897 of 949, by leileilol

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darry wrote on 2020-10-02, 15:43:

EDIT : Capture will be in RGB24 through an OSSC feeding a Datapah E1S . Also, you just want an image at the spawn point, not video, correct ?

Yeah, just PNG images. Video would be too artifacty

(I would've wanted q2 at 320 too, but it doesn't react too well with the 3dfx MiniGL being old glide and 512x384 minimum, maybe newer MiniGLs fix that. Half-Life handles lower res on 3dfx better)

apsosig.png

Reply 898 of 949, by darry

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leileilol wrote on 2020-10-02, 16:09:
darry wrote on 2020-10-02, 15:43:

EDIT : Capture will be in RGB24 through an OSSC feeding a Datapah E1S . Also, you just want an image at the spawn point, not video, correct ?

Yeah, just PNG images. Video would be too artifacty

(I would've wanted q2 at 320 too, but it doesn't react too well with the 3dfx MiniGL being old glide and 512x384 minimum, maybe newer MiniGLs fix that. Half-Life handles lower res on 3dfx better)

Some background info :

Voodoo 3 3000
3dfx Voodoo3 V1.07.00 from https://3dfxarchive.com/downloads/voodoo3-10700.zip (latest official stable release, AFAIK)
3Ddx MiniGL driver ver 1.49 from http://vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?fileid=3 … 5&menustate=2,1 (latest release, AFAIK)
Quake 2 release is version 3.20 (purchased from gog.com)
Brightness values are at defaults .

Captures are forthcoming .

Reply 899 of 949, by darry

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darry wrote on 2020-10-03, 16:42:
Some background info : […]
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leileilol wrote on 2020-10-02, 16:09:
darry wrote on 2020-10-02, 15:43:

EDIT : Capture will be in RGB24 through an OSSC feeding a Datapah E1S . Also, you just want an image at the spawn point, not video, correct ?

Yeah, just PNG images. Video would be too artifacty

(I would've wanted q2 at 320 too, but it doesn't react too well with the 3dfx MiniGL being old glide and 512x384 minimum, maybe newer MiniGLs fix that. Half-Life handles lower res on 3dfx better)

Some background info :

Voodoo 3 3000
3dfx Voodoo3 V1.07.00 from https://3dfxarchive.com/downloads/voodoo3-10700.zip (latest official stable release, AFAIK)
3Ddx MiniGL driver ver 1.49 from http://vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?fileid=3 … 5&menustate=2,1 (latest release, AFAIK)
Quake 2 release is version 3.20 (purchased from gog.com)
Brightness values are at defaults .

Captures are forthcoming .

I know you mentioned PNG files to avoid video compression effects in a compressed video file, but I believe I have found an acceptable alternative for the video file. This was motivated by the fact the there is automatic on screen movement after spawning, so matching exactly identical frames would have been difficult .

Here is a 500MB video link https://easyupload.io/y7r11g (valid for one month)

- The capture and compression was done in Virtualdub2, whose internal processing is in RGB, so no YUB to RGB or RGB to YUV conversion were done .
- It was captured in RGB mode on the Datapath E1S
- The OSSC was in line2x mode (lossless pixel doubling in both axes) and set to RGB output mode
- The capture codec was x264 in lossless RGB mode
- The content was re-compressed x264 in lossless RGB mode after capture to a higher compression ratio (to minimize download times)
- captures were done for both 320x240 and 640x480 through both the MiniGL and the Default 3Dfx OpenGL ICD . (I captured the settings change screens so it is easy to see which is which).

I hope this acceptable to you . If it is not, please let me know and I will stick to PNG files .

EDIT: I would have been happy to also do Half-Life, but I do not have a copy of that game and was not planning on acquiring one) .