Best video cards with DOS / Win 3.x / Win 9x support

Discussion about old graphics cards, monitors and video related things.

Re: Best video card with Dos / Win 3.11 / Win 98 support

Postby shspvr » 2017-10-02 @ 13:05

dr.zeissler wrote:- Is there any low-profile agp-card known, that has native win3x-drivers? afaik none.

The ATI Rage 128 low profile may be your best beat but you need agp 2.0 slot I don't there where any in a agp 1.0 cards
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Re: Best video card with Dos / Win 3.11 / Win 98 support

Postby dr.zeissler » 2017-10-02 @ 13:37

I did some research too and found a lot of AGP-LP Cards.

Matrox:
- G45 / G550

Ati:
- Rage 128
- Radeon 7000
- Radeon 7500
- Radeon 9200se

Nvidia:
- GF2MX MX400/420/440/460?
- GF2MX MX4000
- TNT2
- FX5200
- 6200

Would be very insteresting which card has Win3x support and the differences in DirectX/OGL support.

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CPU: PII 133-333 MOBO: SNI-D981 RAM: 512- FDD: Dualfloppy 3,5"HD/5,25"HD - 3,5"HD - 5,25"DD ISA-Catweasel HDD: 2x40GB - DVD
ISA(3): Audician32-S2Dreamblaster - GusACE PCI(3): Monster3D- Intel NW AGP(1): 3dfx V3-3000
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Re: Best video card with Dos / Win 3.11 / Win 98 support

Postby shspvr » 2017-10-02 @ 13:49

dr.zeissler wrote:I did some research too and found a lot of AGP-LP Cards.

Matrox:
- G45 / G550

Ati:
- Rage 128
- Radeon 7000
- Radeon 7500
- Radeon 9200se

Nvidia:
- GF2MX MX400/420/440/460?
- GF2MX MX4000
- TNT2
- FX5200
- 6200

Would be very insteresting which card has Win3x support and the differences in DirectX/OGL support.

Doc

I'm 99% sure none of Nvidia video had support for win3.x
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Re: Best video card with Dos / Win 3.11 / Win 98 support

Postby keropi » 2017-10-02 @ 14:09

^ yep, I've had nothing but troubles with the riva128 beta driver for 3.1x ...it was one of the reasons I migrated to a S3 Trio3D/2x : it has working drivers for 3.1x/9x/2000
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Re: Best video card with Dos / Win 3.11 / Win 98 support

Postby Rawit » 2017-10-02 @ 14:19

What counts as Low Profile for AGP? 64.41mm? The Matrox G200 LE and the Savage4 LT/IBM #9 Savage4 look like they are smaller than their brethren.
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Re: Best video card with Dos / Win 3.11 / Win 98 support

Postby MERCURY127 » 2017-10-02 @ 18:49

Tnt2 have drivers for 3x. And it's work.
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Re: Best video card with Dos / Win 3.11 / Win 98 support

Postby Cga.8086 » 2017-10-09 @ 23:07

its kind of hard for me to remember that era

but im sure i used a TRIdENT card on my 486 and i played everything on DoS and used win3.11 in high color resolution


it was on pentium2 i used a S3 ...diamond 3D 2000 hooked up with a voodoo2

so why not trident on games? was it shitty on compatibility? thats the normal card everybody had
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Re: Best video card with Dos / Win 3.11 / Win 98 support

Postby schlang » 2017-10-09 @ 23:17

slow af
PC#1: K6-III+ 400 | 512MB | Geforce4 | Voodoo1 | SB Live | AWE64 | GUS PNP Pro
PC#2: 486DX2-66 | 64MB | Riva128 | AWE64 | GUS PNP | PAS16
PC#3: 386DX-40 | 32MB | CL-GD5434 | SB Pro | GUS MAX | PAS16

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Re: Best video card with Dos / Win 3.11 / Win 98 support

Postby tonychen » 2018-1-19 @ 14:02

I have tested many modern cards under dos7.1 / windows 3.11 on my 845 platform machine, not from vmware, not from dosbox. These video cards are:

1. ATI 7500,AGP
2. MX440,AGP
3. FX5500,AGP
4. Gefore200 G210, PCI-E

The driver for Windows 3.11 is generic svga with patch(search google if needed), and for WIN9X is download from the official website with the exclusion of G210, whose driver is not supported under WIN9X.

For DOS:
G210 comes with the best compability for DOS, because the screen will not turn black in a short time and comes back to normal.
FX5500 comes with the second, only for one game, the screen will turn black in a short time and comes back to normal.
Sorry for MX440 / 7500, they do not work only for one game, but works well for all the other games.

For Windows 3.11:
With the generic patched SVGA driver, I can set screen resolution to 1024 x 768. However, I have ISA sound card ALS007, and it is not compatible with ATI 7500 under SVGA, for reasons that the sound playback will stuck. When change back to VGA driver, the sound playback work well. I have also tried SB AWE64 under SVGA driver, it works well. So strange with ATI7500. Maybe also the sound playback will stuck with other video card; I do not launch the mix and match test.

For WIN98:
MX440 cannot set the color depth to 24bit, and for FX5500 the official driver cannot be installed successfully. I end up with ATI7500 at last.
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Re: Best video card with Dos / Win 3.11 / Win 98 support

Postby elianda » 2018-1-19 @ 14:32

The generic SVGA driver for Win3.x most likely follows the VESA capabilities of the cards BIOS. It doesn't provide any GDI acceleration.

As for the ATI 7500, the conflict likely arises due to the IRQ mapping. So it might work to set in BIOS PnP OS to No and reserve the ALS007 IRQ in the PnP table for legacy ISA. Then set it with the init tool to the reserved IRQ.
Also if you use a driver with no acceleration (like the SVGA driver) anyway, then no IRQ functionality is required and it can be disabled. (Assign IRQ to VGA in BIOS or by jumper on older cards)
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Re: Best video card with Dos / Win 3.11 / Win 98 support

Postby tonychen » 2018-1-19 @ 16:05

elianda wrote:The generic SVGA driver for Win3.x most likely follows the VESA capabilities of the cards BIOS. It doesn't provide any GDI acceleration.

As for the ATI 7500, the conflict likely arises due to the IRQ mapping. So it might work to set in BIOS PnP OS to No and reserve the ALS007 IRQ in the PnP table for legacy ISA. Then set it with the init tool to the reserved IRQ.
Also if you use a driver with no acceleration (like the SVGA driver) anyway, then no IRQ functionality is required and it can be disabled. (Assign IRQ to VGA in BIOS or by jumper on older cards)



Many thanks. I actually have already set the ALS007's IRQ to legacy ISA, but the playback is still hang. Never mind, just let it be.
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Re: Best video card with Dos / Win 3.11 / Win 98 support

Postby dr.zeissler » 2018-1-19 @ 16:34

Code: Select all
JAHR HERST. CHIP:     VRAM TYP     DX T&L  SPEZ API           VESA 3.1x 3.5x 4.x WIN95 WIN98 WIN2K
1999 S3     Savage4   32MB AGP/PCI 7? nein S3TC D3D/OGL       3.0  ja   ja   ja  ja    ja    ja
     MATROX G200       8MB AGP/PCI 5? nein -   D3D/(OGL*)     
     MATROX G400      32MB AGP     7  nein EMBM D3D/OGL
     3DFX   V3-3000   16MB AGP/PCI 6  nein -   D3D/OGL/GLIDE 3.0 
     3DFX   V5-5000   64MB
     NVIDIA RIVA128   16MB
     NVIDIA TNT       16MB
     NVIDIA TNT2      16MB
     NVIDIA GF256
     NVIDIA GF2mx
     NVIDIA GF3
     NVIDIA GF4mx
     NVIDIA GF5-
     NVIDIA GF6-6200 256MB AGP
     ATI    R128
     ATI    R7000

Legende:
VRAM - maximal mˆgliche Ausstattung
DX   - DirectX Version mit Hardwaresupport
OGL* - G200 hatte D3D OGL Wrapper?


I am currently checking out what the best compatibility/performance/featureset for different retro-machine-builds is.
CPU: PII 133-333 MOBO: SNI-D981 RAM: 512- FDD: Dualfloppy 3,5"HD/5,25"HD - 3,5"HD - 5,25"DD ISA-Catweasel HDD: 2x40GB - DVD
ISA(3): Audician32-S2Dreamblaster - GusACE PCI(3): Monster3D- Intel NW AGP(1): 3dfx V3-3000
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Re: Best video card with Dos / Win 3.11 / Win 98 support

Postby schlang » 2018-1-19 @ 19:04

I'm in favor of the Riva128 (which also has max. 8MB memory)
PC#1: K6-III+ 400 | 512MB | Geforce4 | Voodoo1 | SB Live | AWE64 | GUS PNP Pro
PC#2: 486DX2-66 | 64MB | Riva128 | AWE64 | GUS PNP | PAS16
PC#3: 386DX-40 | 32MB | CL-GD5434 | SB Pro | GUS MAX | PAS16

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Re: Best video card with Dos / Win 3.11 / Win 98 support

Postby alvaro84 » 2018-1-19 @ 19:36

schlang wrote:I'm in favor of the Riva128 (which also has max. 8MB memory)


For DOS I prefer the vanilla 4MB version (PCI and AGP are both great). The ZX (8MB) has many of its low-res modes removed from its BIOS.

The same kind of low res mode support (with crazy modes like 400x300) can be found in earlier Radeons (up to, maybe, the 9xxx series), later S3 Virge and Trio3D cards (I have no Savage though so I don't know) and Intel 740.

Radeons don't have BIOS support for 1600x1200, though, and S3 cards can often display anything from 1280x1024 up in interlaced mode which is an instant turn off for my monitor.

Good old Tseng ET6000 and much later Voodoo Banshee and 3 have extensive mode support too but their true color modes are 24-bit (32-bit variants seem more favored by software).

And I think this is not a complete list by far, it's just what I remember from testing my hoarded retro hardware.
And I can't really tell anything about win3.1 support :neutral:
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May God have mercy on our dirty little hearts
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Re: Best video card with DOS / Win 3.x / Win 9x support

Postby Baoran » 2018-12-23 @ 19:48

I think radeon cards have win 3.1 support because I have the driver cd that came with R9700 pro and it has win 3.x drivers for early radeon cards in it.
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Re: Best video card with DOS / Win 3.x / Win 9x support

Postby dr.zeissler » 2018-12-23 @ 21:31

Are you sure about the win3x-drivers for radeons? I think they are the wfw-svga drivers?
would you please upload this driver?
I actually prefer my voodoo3-3000 for my PII-System.
CPU: PII 133-333 MOBO: SNI-D981 RAM: 512- FDD: Dualfloppy 3,5"HD/5,25"HD - 3,5"HD - 5,25"DD ISA-Catweasel HDD: 2x40GB - DVD
ISA(3): Audician32-S2Dreamblaster - GusACE PCI(3): Monster3D- Intel NW AGP(1): 3dfx V3-3000
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Re: Best video card with DOS / Win 3.x / Win 9x support

Postby Baoran » 2018-12-23 @ 22:22

dr.zeissler wrote:Are you sure about the win3x-drivers for radeons? I think they are the wfw-svga drivers?
would you please upload this driver?
I actually prefer my voodoo3-3000 for my PII-System.


They could be svga drivers too. I have not tested them, I just read the readme.txt on the cd that came with R9700 pro and I assumed there was drivers. I have not touched win 3.x for 25 years or so I don't remember how the drivers work there.
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Re: Best video card with Dos / Win 3.11 / Win 98 support

Postby schlang » 2018-12-23 @ 23:16

alvaro84 wrote:
schlang wrote:I'm in favor of the Riva128 (which also has max. 8MB memory)


For DOS I prefer the vanilla 4MB version (PCI and AGP are both great). The ZX (8MB) has many of its low-res modes removed from its BIOS.

The same kind of low res mode support (with crazy modes like 400x300) can be found in earlier Radeons (up to, maybe, the 9xxx series), later S3 Virge and Trio3D cards (I have no Savage though so I don't know) and Intel 740.

Radeons don't have BIOS support for 1600x1200, though, and S3 cards can often display anything from 1280x1024 up in interlaced mode which is an instant turn off for my monitor.

Good old Tseng ET6000 and much later Voodoo Banshee and 3 have extensive mode support too but their true color modes are 24-bit (32-bit variants seem more favored by software).

And I think this is not a complete list by far, it's just what I remember from testing my hoarded retro hardware.
And I can't really tell anything about win3.1 support :neutral:


good to know, thanks
PC#1: K6-III+ 400 | 512MB | Geforce4 | Voodoo1 | SB Live | AWE64 | GUS PNP Pro
PC#2: 486DX2-66 | 64MB | Riva128 | AWE64 | GUS PNP | PAS16
PC#3: 386DX-40 | 32MB | CL-GD5434 | SB Pro | GUS MAX | PAS16

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Re: Best video card with DOS / Win 3.x / Win 9x support

Postby dr.zeissler » 2018-12-24 @ 07:37

Baoran wrote:
dr.zeissler wrote:Are you sure about the win3x-drivers for radeons? I think they are the wfw-svga drivers?
would you please upload this driver?
I actually prefer my voodoo3-3000 for my PII-System.


They could be svga drivers too. I have not tested them, I just read the readme.txt on the cd that came with R9700 pro and I assumed there was drivers. I have not touched win 3.x for 25 years or so I don't remember how the drivers work there.



So please make a screenshot of the dir and the files.
CPU: PII 133-333 MOBO: SNI-D981 RAM: 512- FDD: Dualfloppy 3,5"HD/5,25"HD - 3,5"HD - 5,25"DD ISA-Catweasel HDD: 2x40GB - DVD
ISA(3): Audician32-S2Dreamblaster - GusACE PCI(3): Monster3D- Intel NW AGP(1): 3dfx V3-3000
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Re: Best video card with DOS / Win 3.x / Win 9x support

Postby Baoran » 2018-12-24 @ 10:08

dr.zeissler wrote:
Baoran wrote:
dr.zeissler wrote:Are you sure about the win3x-drivers for radeons? I think they are the wfw-svga drivers?
would you please upload this driver?
I actually prefer my voodoo3-3000 for my PII-System.


They could be svga drivers too. I have not tested them, I just read the readme.txt on the cd that came with R9700 pro and I assumed there was drivers. I have not touched win 3.x for 25 years or so I don't remember how the drivers work there.



So please make a screenshot of the dir and the files.


Not sure how to make all files fit into a screenshot, but here is the file list.
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list.txt
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