VOGONS


Reply 20 of 56, by matze79

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A Radeon 7000 is a Bad Choice.
The Driver is badly optimized for old Systems.
i have tested one with a PPro 2000 and speed is slower then a Voodoo 2 Card with 8Megs.

A Decent Workstation Card for a Pentium Pro would be a 3DLabs Permedia 2 Card.
They have well optimized drivers which work nicely togehter with a PPro.
Maybe a Diamond FireGL ? 😀

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Reply 21 of 56, by vetz

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F2bnp wrote:

Using a Voodoo 3 3000 PCI with my Pentium Pro 200. Total overkill, but I seriously couldn't go wrong with the great IQ it offers, plus the fact that it's just one card instead of 2 or 3. Now to find a 440FX motherboard to replace my 450NX and we're cookin' 😉.

+1

3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)
3D Acceleration Comparison Episodes

Reply 22 of 56, by Putas

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matze79 wrote:

A Decent Workstation Card for a Pentium Pro would be a 3DLabs Permedia 2 Card.

Workstation yes, but incomplete blending functions will haunt you in numerous 3d accelerated games.

Reply 25 of 56, by AllUrBaseRBelong2Us

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Well, I ordered both the Matrox G450 and the ATI 7000. One of them ought to work right in the box, and I'm sure I'll find a use for the other later on...at the very least, I'll have an extra card for testing purposes. $12 and $15 respectively seemed pretty good.

Reply 26 of 56, by kanecvr

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You didn't specify what you will be using the machine for. Dos games? Early windows games with 3D acceleration? If you only plan to play DOS games on it in software mode (no 3d acceleration) get an S3 Trio64 / S3 Virge or a Cirrus Logic 54xx. If you want 3D acceleration, most games of the era use GLIDE. That means you need a 3DFX card. The simplest options for your machine would be a PCI Voodoo Banshee or Voodoo 3. These support glide so you can run early 3d accelerated games like GL_Quake, Tomb Raider, Carmageddon, Descent, Quake 2 and alike. There's also stuff like Pandemonium that will only run on a 3dfx card, so if you're building a machine that can run ALL games up to say 1998 you need a 3dfx card.

I'd match a Banshee with a pentium pro. Sure, the Voodoo 2 might be faster (slightly) in some games, but the Banshee is a single card solution (unlike the V2) and it will do higher resolutions and it has more video memory. The Voodoo 3 is even faster (a little faster then two Voodoo 2 cards in SLi) but finding a PCI version won't be easy / cheap.

The trick to Voodoo cards is that they are less dependant on your CPU then modern video cards like the Radeon 7000 you wanted to purchase initially. The R7000 needs CPU overhead the Pentium Pro can't provide, while say a voodoo 2 would actually offload some tasks from the CPU, improving performance. Using a Voodoo card it's possible to get playable framerates from GL_Quake @ 640x480 ON A FAST 486 machine with hardware acceleration - 22 to 27 fps, versus 16-18 fps in software mode in dos, 320x240 - so keep that in mind. Sure, the voodoo kind of expensive, but you get what you pay for. In the long run, it might cost more to go the cheaper route (the radeon 7000 / matrox G450) when you find games that won't run - or won't run well and wind up going for period-correct stuff or abandoning the build altogether. If you're going to go cheap, get an S3 Trio64 or a Virge and be done with it - those can be had for 5-10$.

In such a machine, the best combination that will allow you to play games up to 1997-1998, including really old stuff, an S3 / Cirrus Logic PCI 2D card + 3DFX Voodoo 2 3D accelerator would serve you best. Matrox card aren't known for their compatibility with DOS games - some will display graphical glitches (especially on newer cards like the G450!). Games like Jazz Jackrabbit, Commander Keen, Golden Axe, God of Thunder, Supaplex and others get choppy scrolling, stuttering or just flat-out refuse to work on some matrox cards. They are best suited for high-resolution windows GUI acceleration. Also consider the G450 is pretty new and un-suited for the pentium pro - it's a card that would have been found in pentium III systems, two generations away.

You can use this chart for DOS games video card compatibility: http://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/ - S3, Cirrus Logic, Trident (PCI) and nVidia cards are best suited for DOS games. Early ATi Mach64 PCI cards (witch is missing from the chart) are also great for DOS games.

Reply 27 of 56, by subhuman@xgtx

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F2bnp wrote:

Using a Voodoo 3 3000 PCI with my Pentium Pro 200. Total overkill, but I seriously couldn't go wrong with the great IQ it offers, plus the fact that it's just one card instead of 2 or 3. Now to find a 440FX motherboard to replace my 450NX and we're cookin' 😉.

450NX?? What board are you using? 😊

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Reply 29 of 56, by vetz

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kanecvr wrote:

In such a machine, the best combination that will allow you to play games up to 1997-1998, including really old stuff, an S3 / Cirrus Logic PCI 2D card + 3DFX Voodoo 2 3D accelerator would serve you best. Matrox card aren't known for their compatibility with DOS games - some will display graphical glitches (especially on newer cards like the G450!). Games like Jazz Jackrabbit, Commander Keen, Golden Axe, God of Thunder, Supaplex and others get choppy scrolling, stuttering or just flat-out refuse to work on some matrox cards. They are best suited for high-resolution windows GUI acceleration. Also consider the G450 is pretty new and un-suited for the pentium pro - it's a card that would have been found in pentium III systems, two generations away.

You can use this chart for DOS games video card compatibility: http://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/ - S3, Cirrus Logic, Trident (PCI) and nVidia cards are best suited for DOS games. Early ATi Mach64 PCI cards (witch is missing from the chart) are also great for DOS games.

The G450 2D core is the same as on the G200's and older, so it doesnt matter that it's a newer card. It will provide better GUI acceleration, Direct3D and VGA output quality than a S3 Virge / Cirrus Logic. Agree to pair it up with a Voodoo2. The Pentium Pro can't be slowed down like a Socket 7 system, and most of the games that you mentioned is not suited. Thus you'll more than likely play 1995 games and up, which is mostly Windows or the SVGA era of DOS games, which works well on this card. Also you have to consider S3 Virge cards normally sucks on VGA output quality, this is something you will notice in Windows (not so much DOS in lower res). There are ofc other cards like mentioned previously in this thread which have it all, but is not within OP's price range.

3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)
3D Acceleration Comparison Episodes

Reply 30 of 56, by F2bnp

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subhuman@xgtx wrote:
F2bnp wrote:

Using a Voodoo 3 3000 PCI with my Pentium Pro 200. Total overkill, but I seriously couldn't go wrong with the great IQ it offers, plus the fact that it's just one card instead of 2 or 3. Now to find a 440FX motherboard to replace my 450NX and we're cookin' 😉.

450NX?? What board are you using? 😊

It's an Intel Performance/AU, might be 450GX now that I think about it. I got it along with a Pentium Pro 200 for about 30 Euro, so it was a pretty insane deal. Are 450NX boards rare?

Reply 31 of 56, by matze79

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The Matrox also has bad rendering glitches.

i don't know about G400, but the G200/G100 are behaving badly..

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https://www.retroianer.de - german retro computer board

Reply 32 of 56, by shamino

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F2bnp wrote:
subhuman@xgtx wrote:
F2bnp wrote:

Using a Voodoo 3 3000 PCI with my Pentium Pro 200. Total overkill, but I seriously couldn't go wrong with the great IQ it offers, plus the fact that it's just one card instead of 2 or 3. Now to find a 440FX motherboard to replace my 450NX and we're cookin' 😉.

450NX?? What board are you using? 😊

It's an Intel Performance/AU, might be 450GX now that I think about it. I got it along with a Pentium Pro 200 for about 30 Euro, so it was a pretty insane deal. Are 450NX boards rare?

Is it this board?

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If it is, can you possibly ID the 3pin part circled in that picture? It's under a clip-on heatsink, but if you can pull it off I would love you.
I desoldered mine a long time ago. Years later I tried to get the board running again but don't know what to put there. (sorry for the OT)

Reply 33 of 56, by F2bnp

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Yeah that's the one. From a quick look though, the heatsink seems glued on rather than clipped on and I don't have a lot of room to work with. I'll see what I can do and send you a PM though 😀.

Reply 34 of 56, by Gona

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kanecvr wrote:

You can use this chart for DOS games video card compatibility: http://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/ - S3, Cirrus Logic, Trident (PCI) and nVidia cards are best suited for DOS games. Early ATi Mach64 PCI cards (witch is missing from the chart) are also great for DOS games.

Thanks. I have not expected better DOS compatibility with early Mach64 chips, but now I got two of them for cheap so I have test them. I cannot say that early Mach64 are better in DOS compatibility. But now they are not minning from the chart. 😀
Mach32 PCI from someone would be great too. 😁

Video card compatibility matrix for DOS games | ATI3DCIF compatibility matrix | CGL API compatibility matrix

Reply 35 of 56, by emosun

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AllUrBaseRBelong2Us wrote:

Would something like the ATI 7000 do both 2D & 3D?

Don't get the 7000

I also thought the 7000 was a good idea and i run it in a 233mhz pentium 1. The 7000 has a lot of issues with direct 3d support and doesn't support a lot of basics needed for games that are several years older than the card.

If you want something on the "NEW" side , radeon 8500 support most HD widescreen resolutions at any color depth.

If you want something that makes games fast and period correct , voodoo 2.

Reply 36 of 56, by Errius

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I have a 450NX machine but it's slot 2. I don't think the chipset ever supported the Pentium Pro.

I also have a 180 MHz Pentium Pro machine set up as a fast DOS box. It's running with an original 4 MB Matrox Millennium PCI. The main problem I have with it is that I can't get Dawn Patrol to run in SVGA mode. I don't know if it's possible with Matrox cards. I haven't tried any Windows games on this machine.

People are saying the Pentium Pro can't be slowed down but I get a significant speed reduction using SETMUL. What is a good way of benchmarking this?

Is this too much voodoo?

Reply 37 of 56, by Skyscraper

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Errius wrote:

I have a 450NX machine but it's slot 2. I don't think the chipset ever supported the Pentium Pro.

I also have a 180 MHz Pentium Pro machine set up as a fast DOS box. It's running with an original 4 MB Matrox Millennium PCI. The main problem I have with it is that I can't get Dawn Patrol to run in SVGA mode. I don't know if it's possible with Matrox cards. I haven't tried any Windows games on this machine.

People are saying the Pentium Pro can't be slowed down but I get a significant speed reduction using SETMUL. What is a good way of benchmarking this?

His board uses the Intel 450KX chipset. The 450KX chipset is a bit lacklustre compared to the 440FX chipset but it's still an interesting motherboard.

I would gladly buy the board from F2bnp when he has found a 440FX board if he dosn't have any use for it. Saving rareish but less useful technology is my thing! 😁

A 440FX motherboard, preferably with on board USB is much better for a gaming build. You get PCI 2.1 vs PCI 2.0, EDO support vs FPM only, often support for the PPro 200 with 1MB cache and so on. 😀

New PC: i9 12900K @5GHz all cores @1.2v. MSI PRO Z690-A. 32GB DDR4 3600 CL14. 3070Ti.
Old PC: Dual Xeon X5690@4.6GHz, EVGA SR-2, 48GB DDR3R@2000MHz, Intel X25-M. GTX 980ti.
Older PC: K6-3+ 400@600MHz, PC-Chips M577, 256MB SDRAM, AWE64, Voodoo Banshee.

Reply 38 of 56, by lazibayer

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S3 Trio is probably too old and hard to find a 4MB version. Virge is period correct and fine if you don't play 3D games.
Radeon 7000 might be too new for your system. I purchased a G550 PCI and it refused to boot on my P5A-B. G450 PCI works without problem.