Tell me this Vogons Wiki information about Voodoo 2 is false...

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Re: Tell me this Vogons Wiki information about Voodoo 2 is false...

Postby gdjacobs » 2017-1-03 @ 04:18

Assuming you can 1) find the beta driver, 2) get it to work, 3) tolerate the awful performance.

I mean, I guess you could build a dragster with the powertrain of a Model T, but what would be the point?
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Re: Tell me this Vogons Wiki information about Voodoo 2 is false...

Postby Jade Falcon » 2017-1-03 @ 04:44

DOSfan1994 wrote:Yeah on Windows 2000 it works like a 2D card but on Windows 95 it's not.

Define Works
Yes it can display 2d on 2k with the right driver but it hardy does even that. It so God offal at displaying the desktop that one could say it does not work.
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Re: Tell me this Vogons Wiki information about Voodoo 2 is false...

Postby Jade Falcon » 2017-1-03 @ 04:48

gdjacobs wrote:
I mean, I guess you could build a dragster with the powertrain of a Model T, but what would be the point?

Fun, like the time I got HL2 working a voodoo3. It may had been a complete waist of time and at the end of the day it would be worthless, but you had fun as well.

Also I think falconfly still has the driver.
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Re: Tell me this Vogons Wiki information about Voodoo 2 is false...

Postby DOSfan1994 » 2017-1-03 @ 05:16

Jade Falcon wrote:
DOSfan1994 wrote:Yeah on Windows 2000 it works like a 2D card but on Windows 95 it's not.

Define Works
Yes it can display 2d on 2k with the right driver but it hardy does even that. It so God offal at displaying the desktop that one could say it does not work.


Would I have seen worse on Windows 9x?
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Re: Tell me this Vogons Wiki information about Voodoo 2 is false...

Postby Jade Falcon » 2017-1-03 @ 05:20

DOSfan1994 wrote:
Jade Falcon wrote:
DOSfan1994 wrote:Yeah on Windows 2000 it works like a 2D card but on Windows 95 it's not.

Define Works
Yes it can display 2d on 2k with the right driver but it hardy does even that. It so God offal at displaying the desktop that one could say it does not work.


Would I have seen worse on Windows 9x?

No, you will not see anything. :lol:
9x would most likely need a overhaul to use a voodoo2 as a 2d card. Keep in mind a voodoo2 being used for 2d is one step up form a slide show.
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Re: Tell me this Vogons Wiki information about Voodoo 2 is false...

Postby gdjacobs » 2017-1-03 @ 08:46

Jade Falcon wrote:
gdjacobs wrote:
I mean, I guess you could build a dragster with the powertrain of a Model T, but what would be the point?

Fun, like the time I got HL2 working a voodoo3. It may had been a complete waist of time and at the end of the day it would be worthless, but you had fun as well.

Also I think falconfly still has the driver.


I was thinking about this after I wrote it. Sometimes things are beyond reason, and I'm actually very happy that they are so. Not everything needs to be done for a reason, or they can be done for perverse reasons. It's important to push the boundaries of what's "normal" with creative expression, of which even drivers are a part. Even network protocol RFCs are creative works, thus we have IP over carrier pigeon.

So, I apologize for not capturing that belief. A GDI rendering driver for the Voodoo 2 would certainly qualify as perverse and kind of hilarious. However, just as a Model T dragster probably wouldn't stand up on the racing circuit, I think trying to use a Voodoo 2 for 2D would be a painful endeavor from the perspective of performance and usability even if a driver were developed and matured.
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Re: Tell me this Vogons Wiki information about Voodoo 2 is false...

Postby DOSfan1994 » 2017-1-03 @ 09:02

gdjacobs wrote:
Jade Falcon wrote:
gdjacobs wrote:
I mean, I guess you could build a dragster with the powertrain of a Model T, but what would be the point?

Fun, like the time I got HL2 working a voodoo3. It may had been a complete waist of time and at the end of the day it would be worthless, but you had fun as well.

Also I think falconfly still has the driver.


I was thinking about this after I wrote it. Sometimes things are beyond reason, and I'm actually very happy that they are so. Not everything needs to be done for a reason, or they can be done for perverse reasons. It's important to push the boundaries of what's "normal" with creative expression, of which even drivers are a part. Even network protocol RFCs are creative works, thus we have IP over carrier pigeon.

So, I apologize for not capturing that belief. A GDI rendering driver for the Voodoo 2 would certainly qualify as perverse and kind of hilarious. However, just as a Model T dragster probably wouldn't stand up on the racing circuit, I think trying to use a Voodoo 2 for 2D would be a painful endeavor from the perspective of performance and usability even if a driver were developed and matured.


How would a Voodoo 2 render GDI?
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Re: Tell me this Vogons Wiki information about Voodoo 2 is false...

Postby spiroyster » 2017-1-03 @ 12:04

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Re: Tell me this Vogons Wiki information about Voodoo 2 is false...

Postby yawetaG » 2017-1-03 @ 12:25

spiroyster wrote:Image


It's like watching a train crash unfold in which the person riding at the center of the train crash is woefully unaware of the train crash even happening. Let me further it a little bit:

DOSfan1994 wrote:How would a Voodoo 2 render GDI?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_Device_Interface. Read it.
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Re: Tell me this Vogons Wiki information about Voodoo 2 is false...

Postby Malik » 2017-1-03 @ 13:18

leileilol saw this coming long back

EDIT : Don't feed the troll.

viewtopic.php?p=551703#p551703

viewtopic.php?p=550900#p550900
Last edited by Malik on 2017-1-03 @ 13:25, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tell me this Vogons Wiki information about Voodoo 2 is false...

Postby rkrenicki » 2017-1-03 @ 13:18

mwdmeyer wrote:At some point in time I was able to make Windows 2000 use the Voodoo 2 to display the desktop, some specific driver allowed this. Worked fine if I remember correctly. Not sure how :)


I was just going to say this. I had a triple monitor setup at work back in 2001/2002, I used two Voodoo2s as the video cards for the 2nd and 3rd monitors using this hacked up Windows 2000 driver. It wasnt the fastest thing in the world, but it worked.
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Re: Tell me this Vogons Wiki information about Voodoo 2 is false...

Postby Tetrium » 2017-1-03 @ 14:06

gdjacobs wrote:
Jade Falcon wrote:Fun, like the time I got HL2 working a voodoo3. It may had been a complete waist of time and at the end of the day it would be worthless, but you had fun as well.

Also I think falconfly still has the driver.


I was thinking about this after I wrote it. Sometimes things are beyond reason, and I'm actually very happy that they are so. Not everything needs to be done for a reason, or they can be done for perverse reasons. It's important to push the boundaries of what's "normal" with creative expression, of which even drivers are a part. Even network protocol RFCs are creative works, thus we have IP over carrier pigeon.

So, I apologize for not capturing that belief. A GDI rendering driver for the Voodoo 2 would certainly qualify as perverse and kind of hilarious. However, just as a Model T dragster probably wouldn't stand up on the racing circuit, I think trying to use a Voodoo 2 for 2D would be a painful endeavor from the perspective of performance and usability even if a driver were developed and matured.

^Agreed.

If we don't push the boundries of what's "normal", none of us would've been getting anywhere. Heck, in a sense retro computing could possibly have not existed at all!

And in my experience trying out something "stupid" may actually end up being very profitable (though often it won't lol)
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Re: Tell me this Vogons Wiki information about Voodoo 2 is false...

Postby Jade Falcon » 2017-1-03 @ 15:16

Malik wrote:leileilol saw this coming long back

EDIT : Don't feed the troll.

http://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?p=551703#p551703

http://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?p=550900#p550900

Ill feed the troll if not to set things right.

The real trolls here is both you and leileilol, Dasfan is just trying to find a way to get the voodoo2 to with 2d under 9x. He happens to be misunderstanding a few things and some of use misunderstand him. Wile his constant broken record questing may bug some of us, it does not make him a troll. If he is a troll he's very bad at it. My bet is he is not a native English speaker, witch would explain a lot.

Such people are very common on 3dfx sites. If it weren't for people like dosfan newer games like HL2 would not be playable on 3dfx hardware.


@DosFan
I would recommend doing some research on other sites, Read up on the voodoo2's inter workings and whatnot. Vogons is not the best place to ask such questions about 3dfx hardware, very few of us know the inner working of 3dfx hardware well enough to help you. I would ask your questions on 3dfxzone.it or falconfly.de. A few of us on falconfly theorized a way to get 2 voodoo5500 to work in sli. People on 3dfxzone rigged up the banshee to work in sli too, then there are the folks the got dx9 games to work on the vsa-100 and others like my self that made a 64bit driver for the voodoo1 and 2. None of witch happened here. People here are smart, but a 3dfx site would be a better place to ask such questions.

But at this point your kind of on your own. getting a voodoo2 to display 2d on 9x it not as simple as 2k. Right now I don't own a voodoo2 so I can't be of much help, I'm shore I could rig something up if I had one and a system for it. But in all honestly you'd be better of making a 3d overlay for 9x then trying to get a voodoo2 to display 2d on 9x.


EDIT:
As far as I know the only way to get the voodoo2 to work with GDI is some sort of overlay, wrapper or translator. I'm not all that up on the voodoo2's 2d capabilities so I can't realty say but I'm fairly certain is lacks the hardware to display via GDI. I'm going to bet that the 2k driver uses DirectDraw a overlay, wrapper or translator to display 2d, that or its just loading video in its framebuffer one frame at a time. I'll take a look at the driver it tonight and see how it works.
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Re: Tell me this Vogons Wiki information about Voodoo 2 is false...

Postby DOSfan1994 » 2017-1-03 @ 19:00

Jade Falcon wrote:
Malik wrote:leileilol saw this coming long back

EDIT : Don't feed the troll.

viewtopic.php?p=551703#p551703

viewtopic.php?p=550900#p550900

Ill feed the troll if not to set things right.

The real trolls here is both you and leileilol, Dasfan is just trying to find a way to get the voodoo2 to with 2d under 9x. He happens to be misunderstanding a few things and some of use misunderstand him. Wile his constant broken record questing may bug some of us, it does not make him a troll. If he is a troll he's very bad at it. My bet is he is not a native English speaker, witch would explain a lot.

Such people are very common on 3dfx sites. If it weren't for people like dosfan newer games like HL2 would not be playable on 3dfx hardware.


@DosFan
I would recommend doing some research on other sites, Read up on the voodoo2's inter workings and whatnot. Vogons is not the best place to ask such questions about 3dfx hardware, very few of us know the inner working of 3dfx hardware well enough to help you. I would ask your questions on 3dfxzone.it or falconfly.de. A few of us on falconfly theorized a way to get 2 voodoo5500 to work in sli. People on 3dfxzone rigged up the banshee to work in sli too, then there are the folks the got dx9 games to work on the vsa-100 and others like my self that made a 64bit driver for the voodoo1 and 2. None of witch happened here. People here are smart, but a 3dfx site would be a better place to ask such questions.

But at this point your kind of on your own. getting a voodoo2 to display 2d on 9x it not as simple as 2k. Right now I don't own a voodoo2 so I can't be of much help, I'm shore I could rig something up if I had one and a system for it. But in all honestly you'd be better of making a 3d overlay for 9x then trying to get a voodoo2 to display 2d on 9x.


EDIT:
As far as I know the only way to get the voodoo2 to work with GDI is some sort of overlay, wrapper or translator. I'm not all that up on the voodoo2's 2d capabilities so I can't realty say but I'm fairly certain is lacks the hardware to display via GDI. I'm going to bet that the 2k driver uses DirectDraw a overlay, wrapper or translator to display 2d, that or its just loading video in its framebuffer one frame at a time. I'll take a look at the driver it tonight and see how it works.


I found some information that you can use Voodoo 2 as a primary 3D device.
http://www.3dgw.com/Articles/voodoo2_control.htm
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Re: Tell me this Vogons Wiki information about Voodoo 2 is false...

Postby Malik » 2017-1-04 @ 04:41

Jade Falcon wrote:
Malik wrote:leileilol saw this coming long back

EDIT : Don't feed the troll.

viewtopic.php?p=551703#p551703

viewtopic.php?p=550900#p550900

Ill feed the troll if not to set things right.

The real trolls here is both you and leileilol, Dasfan is just trying to find a way to get the voodoo2 to with 2d under 9x. He happens to be misunderstanding a few things and some of use misunderstand him. Wile his constant broken record questing may bug some of us, it does not make him a troll. If he is a troll he's very bad at it. My bet is he is not a native English speaker, witch would explain a lot.

Such people are very common on 3dfx sites. If it weren't for people like dosfan newer games like HL2 would not be playable on 3dfx hardware.



:lol:

Well, newcomers do tend to be hyperactive in the beginning. :wink:
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Re: Tell me this Vogons Wiki information about Voodoo 2 is false...

Postby Jorpho » 2017-1-04 @ 05:38

Jade Falcon wrote:A few of us on falconfly theorized a way to get 2 voodoo5500 to work in sli. People on 3dfxzone rigged up the banshee to work in sli too
I tried Googling for these wonders and didn't get very far.

DOSfan1994 wrote:I found some information that you can use Voodoo 2 as a primary 3D device.
http://www.3dgw.com/Articles/voodoo2_control.htm
And what exactly do you think that means?
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Re: Tell me this Vogons Wiki information about Voodoo 2 is false...

Postby Tetrium » 2017-1-04 @ 13:53

Jade Falcon wrote:Dasfan is just trying to find a way to get the voodoo2 to with 2d under 9x.

DOSfan1994 wrote:I was on Vogons Wiki yesterday and I found this information about Voodoo 2.
http://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/3dfx

What says here on this wiki page is that "However, the chipset does have some 2D features" which would be baloney because it's only a 3D accelerator at 90mhz that only does Direct 3D acceleration not 2D acceleration nor Windows GDI acceleration according to Leileilol, although there is a Voodoo 2 driver for Linux that is used as a display device, but the one for Windows is only a Multimedia device.

Troll or Proof, voodoo 2 does not do GDI acceleration.

He was? :confused:
Looks to me he states that the fact that the chipset does have some 2D features is baloney and is accusing leileilol of...whatever it is he has on his mind. And he actually creates a thread and starts demanding proof.

I'm not a native English speaker either and plenty more non-native English speakers frequent this forum and other retro computing forums also. And bad at English or not, there are even worse English speakers who clearly are not as hostile.

It kinda looks like some personal issue to me, camouflaged as a honest complaint about something on a website which (by sheer luck and pure coincidence) happens to may have been written by leileilol?

Clearly leileilol is a friggin genius.
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Re: Tell me this Vogons Wiki information about Voodoo 2 is false...

Postby Tetrium » 2017-1-04 @ 14:39

And about the visiting other websites for information, this usually is a great way to find new bits of information and most retro hardware communities tend to have some speciality one way or the other.

The 3DFX community has done some absolutely amazing work for the retro hardware community, no doubts about that.

Vogons seems to be a good all-rounder when it comes to PCs while many other forums tend to specialize on(for instance) anything pre-Windows or a more particular era or class of hardware. Or overclocking.

When going on a vacation, every person decides for themselves which hotel will suit best and the next person may have vastly different preferences to another.
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Re: Tell me this Vogons Wiki information about Voodoo 2 is false...

Postby spiroyster » 2017-1-04 @ 16:42

GDI window rendered to offscreen buffer.
Offscreen buffer loaded into Voodoo texture.
Orthographic projection.
Voodooo uses Glide or OpenGL or DirectX to display said texture on a quad (2xtris).
Quad positioned at GDI window position.
Mouse clicks tracked and piped back into windows message loop/trigger correct event whatever.

et viola... a GDI generated window displayed in the correct location on a voodoo2 in Win9x (even works on Win2K).
With mouse interaction!

caveats...
Given the limited texture memory on voodoo, you may get a few windows or, a few less windows and a backdrop or something equally impractical.
It would be slooooowwwwwwwww.
Limited screen res...
[EDIT:] Savage overdraw :dead:

SLI will allow you to see the slide show at a blistering 30FPS, so won't help either (data duplicated, so still only 8/12MB).

Visually, all 3D can look 2D by using a square viewing frustum (orthographic projection) and so can present any image in a 2D form (as if it were displayed by a card without '3D capabilities'). Its what Apple have done with OSX and OpenGL. This coupled with the fact that you can render GDI to an image buffer, and that image buffer can be used as a texture by a native Glide/OpenGL/DirectX api used with Voodoo means you can indeed display a GDI (non accelerated) window on a Voodoo2 in which ever OS. I doubt this is what is being asked, but may go some way to explaining the screen shot which has caused all this controversy. o.0

Point is, it might be possible, but its certainly not default behavior (no GDI acceleration). There may be a driver which can in some way utilise instructions/operations/function of the Voodoo hardware in order to alleviate workload from the CPU, in which case it could be argued that it provides 'hardware acceleration for GDI', meh... None it will amount to anything practical though, and always limited by screen resolution (although 800x600 was pretty standard back then 14" CRT's and all that!). Peer trolling welcomed.

Just my 2 cents. I have never done any Voodoo specific/Glide programming, but unless it uses some Voodoo mathematics for image generation which I have never heard of, the principles are the same as they are today o.0. The hardware got bigger and faster, shite loads mem added, accelerations for all kinds of specific 'in fashion' effects included, it became 'General Purpose', Pipelines ruptured...but still the same old Vector/Matrix/Projection principles.

Can't speak for DX12, but if it breaks the barriers like Vulkan as done with GL, we are certainly in game changing times now :)
So my question is (I'm team purple at heart, so can't compete in the desktop market, but clear winner...har har har o.0), who does Vulkan acceleration best these days?

[EDIT:] Did I mean to say Direct3D as opposed to DirectX? :dead:
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Re: Tell me this Vogons Wiki information about Voodoo 2 is false...

Postby SquallStrife » 2017-1-06 @ 03:57

leileilol wrote:Don't feed the troll.


Yep

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