Confused with AGP Speeds and Voltage

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Confused with AGP Speeds and Voltage

Postby PKFreeZZy » 2017-12-22 @ 19:35

I've put a lot of thought into buying a new graphics card, but since Christmas is around the corner, I'm delaying my purchase.

Not too long ago I began wondering if an AGP8x or 4x card could work with my motherboard (ASUS P2B with i440BX Chipset). I never really cared about AGP speeds before, I'm just getting into hardware inch by inch.

It was a thread in which users were talking about how if you had the incorrect AGP slot or card either the MOBO or the card, maybe both, would end up on fire,. They included images of different "keys" indicating what voltage and speed they operate at. The P2B has a 3.3V AGP slot, therefore if I remember correctly its speed is 2x.

The graphics card I currently have inside is a TNT2 M64 which has both a 3.3V and a 1.5V key. Like I mentioned, it's supposed to be for 3.3V cards only, but it works perfectly fine unless I run 3D software or certain drivers.

I'm really confused now. Is this the reason it's unstable with 3D? Will the cards I'm considering, the GF4 MX440 and the Ti4200 not cook the PC? Both the TNT2 and the GF4 series have the same connector, so with my current assumption I think they'll work. Nevertheless, I don't want to act carelessly and make any dumb mistakes, so help is appreciated! Thanks in advance!
Last edited by PKFreeZZy on 2017-12-26 @ 16:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Confused with AGP Speeds and Voltage

Postby agent_x007 » 2017-12-22 @ 19:39

4600 Ti @ i440BX (MSI)
3DMark 01 SE GF 4600 Ti (PIII 784,5MHz) mini.png
Yes, no artefacts or anything like that.

Can TNT2 M64 simply show signs of imminent death ?
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Re: Confused with AGP Speeds and Voltage

Postby PKFreeZZy » 2017-12-22 @ 19:50

Oh, that was quite a quick response.

I'm glad to know it'll work (so long as I don't get the 8x version ???), thanks so much for your reply! Impressive 3D Mark results, too!
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Re: Confused with AGP Speeds and Voltage

Postby agent_x007 » 2017-12-22 @ 20:15

PKFreeZZy wrote:I'm glad to know it'll work (so long as I don't get the 8x version ???), thanks so much for your reply! Impressive 3D Mark results, too!
Thanks, here's PIII-S with a "9800 XT" (a 9800 Pro moded), this time on Gigabyte i440BX board :
9800 XT 440BX + Tualatin mini.png
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Re: Confused with AGP Speeds and Voltage

Postby vlask » 2017-12-23 @ 09:39

Basicaly.... AGP4x cards work everywhere
AGP8x only in AGP4x/8x MB.
AGP 1/2x cards only in max AGP4x MB except intel P4/C2D chipsets (intel P4 support only AGP4x,8x cards).
Not only mine graphics cards collection at http://www.vgamuseum.info
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Re: Confused with AGP Speeds and Voltage

Postby Dani-01 » 2017-12-23 @ 10:38

Well, in theory, if the card fits in the board, it should work. But then there are those weird cases (SS7 boards) when a 1X/2X slot simply can't use all AGP features and some cards have problems for example. A BX board should be happy with any card with a universal conenctor (has both keys) though. :happy:
The only problem I've run into so far is that when you use a Geforce FX card, the PS/2 keyboard connector refuses to work. Never had an issue with any Geforce 2 - 4.
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Re: Confused with AGP Speeds and Voltage

Postby FFXIhealer » 2017-12-24 @ 03:24

To the best of my own knowledge and reading on the topic over the years...

AGP 2x - 3.3 Volts
AGP 4x - 1.5 Volts
AGP 8x - 0.8 Volts

And the slots should be backwards compatible with each other, but can be keyed so as to prevent certain cards from being inserted. Most cards come in a dual-voltage flavor, such as 2x/4x or 4x/8x. The TNT2 card is a 4x card which works fine in a 2x slot as well. I have the TNT2 in a Diamond Viper V770 card and it's AGP 4x and works perfectly fine in my ASUS P2B.
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Re: Confused with AGP Speeds and Voltage

Postby weldum » 2017-12-24 @ 09:49

FFXIhealer wrote:To the best of my own knowledge and reading on the topic over the years...

AGP 2x - 3.3 Volts
AGP 4x - 1.5 Volts
AGP 8x - 0.8 Volts

And the slots should be backwards compatible with each other, but can be keyed so as to prevent certain cards from being inserted. Most cards come in a dual-voltage flavor, such as 2x/4x or 4x/8x. The TNT2 card is a 4x card which works fine in a 2x slot as well. I have the TNT2 in a Diamond Viper V770 card and it's AGP 4x and works perfectly fine in my ASUS P2B.


there are some exceptions though, i had a geforce 6200 AGP 8x that worked without problems in 440BX boards with any drivers, and any other 2x board, and now have a GF2 MX 400 AGP4x, GF4 MX4000 AGP8x and GF FX5200 AGP8x that works in almost any agp slot, despite the speed.
the only chipsets that have problems are older ALi or VIA that had an incomplete or inconsistent agp implementation-
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Re: Confused with AGP Speeds and Voltage

Postby Matth79 » 2017-12-24 @ 22:10

http://www.playtool.com/pages/agpcompat/agp.html - a very good rundown on AGP compatibility.

You can find keyed to fit cards that don't work - I found a Savage 2000 that wouldn't play with my 3.3V motherboard, but then the AMD 750 Irongate chipset was troublesome
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Re: Confused with AGP Speeds and Voltage

Postby FFXIhealer » 2017-12-28 @ 03:21

I have an Abit KX7-333 motherboard (Socket 462 - Athlon XP) that has AGP 2x/4x slot and an ATI Radeon x700 AGP card that refuses to POST. I assume that's because the card is a PCI-Express native chip with a PCI-E -> AGP interface adapter chip that only really works with AGP 8x, or 0.8V signal voltage. Since my MB has a minimum AGP signal voltage of 1.5V, that's why I assume the system hangs at power-on with no beep codes, nothing on the screen, just fans blowing. My Radeon 9550 (AGP 4x/8x card) works perfectly fine, if not severely under-powered for a Windows XP gaming system (hence why I wanted either a 9800 Pro/XT or the X700 series card).

So yeah, just because an AGP card is keyed to fit into a certain slot, that doesn't necessarily mean the card and the MB will work together.
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Re: Confused with AGP Speeds and Voltage

Postby Imperious » 2017-12-28 @ 13:10

Are You sure You have a powerful enough power supply?

I have a much older Abit KT7-Raid that only has a KT133 chipset, and so far these video cards have worked ok
It does have a universal AGP slot, but having been made in 2000 only supports up to Agp 4x

1. Nvidia Riva 128 AGP
2. Nvidia TNT2 Pro AGP
3. Ati Radeon 9800xt
4. Nvidia TI4200
5. ATI HD3650
6. ATI X850XT
7. Nvidia 7800gs
8. Nvidia 6800GT
9. Nvidia Quadro 3000 AGP
10 Intel i740 AGP

I used to have a 250w PSU in it and it wouldn't post with a 9800XT, a more powerful PSU sorted that out.
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Re: Confused with AGP Speeds and Voltage

Postby FFXIhealer » 2017-12-28 @ 16:34

Ok. I'll let you know if I find a bigger PSU than my Kingwin Lazer 1000-watt modular PSU and test it out again. :lol:

Ok, all joking aside, it's got a Cooler Master RS-500-PCAR-D3 500-watt ATX PSU in there that's a hell of a lot more modern than anything else inside the box.

IMG_0013[1].JPG
Cooler Master RS-500-PCAR-D3


I'm pretty sure it has enough power. Here's the card:

IMG_0014[1].JPG
ATI Radeon x700 Pro front

IMG_0015[1].JPG
ATI Radeon x700 Pro back

IMG_0016[1].JPG
PCI-E to AGP chip


Here, you see the PCI-Express to AGP adapter chip. The PCI-Express versions of the X700 card do not have this chip there, or anywhere else on the board. The pink thing I pulled off felt like thermal tape like the kind you'd find between RAM chips and the heatspreader on a modern video card. I also think it's weird that the actual chip is uncovered. Maybe it was to isolate the heat of the chip from the rest of the assembly.

Anyway, THIS CHIP is why I think it ONLY works on AGP 8x busses at 0.8V.

And if anyone cares, my eyes are more accurate than a zoomed in 12MP camera, so the numbers on the chip read:

218BAPAGA12F
GG8748.1
0514AA
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Re: Confused with AGP Speeds and Voltage

Postby Imperious » 2017-12-29 @ 09:01

Chances that even though Your PSU is 500 watts, your motherboard does not have a 12v ATX socket on it, which means that your
cpu is being driven by the +5v rail, and for that 25 amps isn't good enough when using more power hungry video cards.
This is a common issue with Socket A motherboards and quite often a seemingly weaker power supply with 30-40 amps on the 5 volt rail
is what you need.
My HD3650 has that same AGP bridge chip and works fine on a much older motherboard, so I doubt its that causing the issue.
Of course there can be compatibility problems.

Stupid question perhaps but I assume You plugged the power supply's floppy connector into the video card?
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Re: Confused with AGP Speeds and Voltage

Postby FFXIhealer » 2017-12-29 @ 16:39

Imperious wrote:Stupid question perhaps but I assume You plugged the power supply's floppy connector into the video card?


Of course I did. Here's the system with the Kingwin Lazer 1000-watt PSU hooked up and the screen showing nothing.
IMG_0017.JPG
1000-watt attempt - no screen


A close-up of the system with the 1000-watt PSU plugged in, bypassing the "weak" 500-watt PSU. Yay, this PSU has 30-amps on the 5V rail! A whopping 150 Watts!
IMG_0018.JPG
1000-watt hookup


The specs sticker on the 1000-watt PSU:
IMG_0027[1].JPG
Kingwin Laser 1000-watt PSU spec sheet


A super-close-up of the screen with those extra 5 amps. Isn't it wonderful?
IMG_0020.JPG
Screen using x700


Here, I put the 9550xl back in and restarted - same 1000-watt PSU. Different results.
IMG_0021.JPG
Screen using 9550xl
Last edited by FFXIhealer on 2017-12-29 @ 17:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Confused with AGP Speeds and Voltage

Postby FFXIhealer » 2017-12-29 @ 17:28

IMG_0022.JPG
Motherboard Layout

IMG_0023.JPG
System Chassis

IMG_0024.JPG
Close up of CPU, NB, and RAM

IMG_0025.JPG
Expansion Cards

IMG_0026.JPG
Expansion cards 2

Expansion cards
AGP: ATI Radeon 9550xl 256MB
PCI1: blank
PCI2: SMC 10/100 Ethernet (with WOL wire connected)
PCI3: blank
PCI4: Creative Labs Sound Blaster Live! 5.1
PCI5: USB 2.0 card (2 external, 1 internal plug for 2 front ports)
PCI6: blank

System originally had an AMD Athlon XP 1800+ Palomino with the FSB set to 133MHz and only 256MB of DDR-233. Now it's got an AMD Athlon XP 3200+ Barton at 166MHz FSB and 2GB of DDR-400.

I have a 2nd HDD slot, but I don't have another big PATA IDE drive to put in there. But that hard drive is 120GB, which is a decent upgrade from the failing 80GB I pulled out of this system earlier this year. I just reinstalled Windows XP with my existing product key and ran with it as a new install. The system does run The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, although at turned-down effects and a limited viewing distance. It will also run F.E.A.R., but at extremely low effects and set to 640x480 in order to get the framerates up. It also plays DOOM 3, again with Low settings and a lower resolution. It makes the games look almost cartoony played like that.
But it runs Neverwinter Nights perfectly fine. I'm sure it'll scream with Return to Castle Wolfenstein (which runs "acceptably" on my 600MHz Pentium 3 system and a TNT2 card). It runs Final Fantasy XI at acceptable framerates.

I still think the problem with the x700 is that the AGP slot only supports AGP 2x and 4x and that the card requires 8x (0.8V) specs. All of those PCI-Express cards with the adapter chip to go on the AGP bus came out a year or two AFTER AGP 8x came out. I really wish this board supported 8x and I could be done with all this nonsense, but this is the board I chose back in 2002 so I'm kind-of stuck with it. I also spent over $100 getting the whole thing professionally re-capped and it's rock-solid stable. I can't say the same about the hard drive power connectors, though. I need to pull the molex plastic ends off and tighten all of the little metal contacts.

Note to OP: I apologize for hijacking your thread.
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Re: Confused with AGP Speeds and Voltage

Postby Imperious » 2017-12-30 @ 12:21

There are a few other things You could try, like updating bios to latest if not already done
http://soggi.eu/motherboards/abit/KX7-333.htm

Even Your 1000 watt PSU still only has a 30 amp 5 volt rail which is barely enough. I have attached a photo of my crappy 450W PSU
with 50A 5v rail.
Of course that may have nothing to do with it.
Can You check Your bios has AGP 4x otherwise known as 2.0 enabled in the bios? If it was set to disabled then that could
explain it.
I assume the video card has tested ok in another motherboard?
You could try downclocking the cpu and see if that helps.

I can't think of anything else really, but I find it strange that my Year 2000 KT7-Raid works with a HD3650 and Nvidia 7800gs that both have AGP bridge chips.
My X850XT is native AGP, so no bridge chip there.
Maybe someone else has some other ideas?
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Re: Confused with AGP Speeds and Voltage

Postby Srandista » 2017-12-30 @ 12:38

FFXIhealer wrote:My Radeon 9550 (AGP 4x/8x card) works perfectly fine, if not severely under-powered for a Windows XP gaming system (hence why I wanted either a 9800 Pro/XT or the X700 series card).

If I was on your place, I would be looking for 9800 Pro with R350 chip. Cards with R360 chips have same key on AGP connector as your X700 (and different to 9550). With your compatibility issues, I wouldn't risk it, and will go for a card which will certainly work.
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Re: Confused with AGP Speeds and Voltage

Postby FFXIhealer » 2017-12-30 @ 15:31

The BIOS is running the absolute latest version that was ever released.

AGP is running at 4x, as confirmed by GPU-z.

I don't have ANY AGP 8x machines laying around. The only other AGP-having machine is my ASUS P2B which only has AGP 2x, so what's the point in trying to test it in there? It only supports the 3.3V signal voltage. All other systems are either before AGP (too old) or have PCI-Express (too new).

And I cannot find your power supply in the United States. All internet sources I've seen have been foreign sites from Europe and the like. I've noticed a lot of retro PC gamers here with retro hardware are from Europe, not America. I must be one of the rare Americans who actually LIKES older hardware. That must also be why all your responses happen while I'm asleep and I have to wait 24 hours between my posts to get a response.
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Re: Confused with AGP Speeds and Voltage

Postby Imperious » 2018-1-01 @ 06:14

Something like this might do the trick, that's if this is the problem of course.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Allied-Al-B500 ... SwnTdaBL8o

With old PSU's You may have to replace some capacitors if bulged.

I have seen my power supply rebranded with different manufacturer names here and there on ebay.

It's unfortunate You cannot test the video card in another motherboard, as if it is dead then nothing you do will give a picture.
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Re: Confused with AGP Speeds and Voltage

Postby Srandista » 2018-1-01 @ 07:28

FFXIhealer: I was thinking about one thing. How do you connect card to the monitor? With VGA, DVI or something else like adapter?
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