3d accelerators on other platforms not PC

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Re: 3d accelerators on other platforms not PC

Postby subhuman@xgtx » 2018-2-25 @ 07:32

leileilol wrote:PC9821 has PCX1/2 (NEC PC3DEngine branded PowerVR accelerators)


Definitely. The PCX1 I had in my hands was one of these.
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Re: 3d accelerators on other platforms not PC

Postby subhuman@xgtx » 2018-2-25 @ 08:08

shiva2004 wrote:
IAmJefferson wrote:ARCADE

- 3Dfx Voodoo (used in Atari's San Francisco Rush and almost a majority of arcade games released by Midway from 1997 to 2001, also used in Konami's Hornet and Viper arcade hardware, as well as on Taito's Wolf System, which is almost based on PC architecture)
- Proprietary IBM OpenGL 3D accelerator (used in Konami's Fighting Bujutsu) (possibly the first arcade game to use OpenGL API)
- Fujitsu's MB86234 (used in SEGA's Model 2 arcade hardware)
- Lockheed Martin Real3D/PRO-1000 (used in SEGA's Model 3 arcade hardware) (also used in Intel's notorious 3D accelerator card, the i740)
- Texas Instruments TMS320C25 (used in Namco's System 22 hardware)
- Fujitsu's MB86233 (used in SEGA's Model 1 hardware)
- Texas Instruments TMS34010 (used in some of Williams/Midway arcade games from 1988 until 1995, Atari's own Hard Drivin' hardware and Microprose's short-lived arcade games, F-15 Strike Eagle and Battle Of The Solar System)
- Motorola MC88110 (used in Virtuality's SU2000 VR hardware, alongside with a stackload of graphics cards)
- Gaelco's own proprietary 3D chip (used in Speed Up!, Surf Planet and Radikal Bikers)

Not to be an ass, but a lot of what you've wrote is wrong:
- Many of the chips that you list as 3D accelerators are in fact DSPs, the actual " accelerators" are a complicated combination of DSPs, graphic chips and other hardware.
- The i740 is nowhere near the level of perfomance and quality of a Real3D/PRO-1000, although the 3D part of the i740 is based on a cut-down version of the Real3D/PRO-1000 architecture.
- As far as I know, early Gaelco 3D games are based on a combination of DSPs and other chips, like Sega and Namco similar hardware.


Indeed. If I recally correctly, the FUJITSU DSPs on the Model 2 platform are the ones in charge of all the geometry and lighting calculations, while the custom video stack does the rasterization.
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Re: 3d accelerators on other platforms not PC

Postby Putas » 2018-2-27 @ 15:18

shiva2004 wrote:The i740 is nowhere near the level of perfomance and quality of a Real3D/PRO-1000...


What makes you say so?
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Re: 3d accelerators on other platforms not PC

Postby BloodyCactus » 2018-2-27 @ 17:21

powervr - sega naomi + dreamcast
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Re: 3d accelerators on other platforms not PC

Postby shiva2004 » 2018-2-27 @ 23:02

Putas wrote:
shiva2004 wrote:The i740 is nowhere near the level of perfomance and quality of a Real3D/PRO-1000...


What makes you say so?


Apart from pure data, this:

HGN: A while back the R3D/100 was announced as a consumer product, and
then we kind of never heard anything else about it. Whatever happened
to that product? Is it related in anyway to the i740?

R3D: The R3D/100 was a graphics chip designed for the high-end
workstation markets such as CAD and 3D modeling. This product was not
really related to the Intel740 because the i740 is targeted at the
performance mainstream PC market.


is an excerpt form an interview with Real3D themselves, full text and more data here: https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/lockheed-real3d-demo-footage-pro-1000-from-comdex-1997.55008/page-2
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Re: 3d accelerators on other platforms not PC

Postby Putas » 2018-3-01 @ 05:10

OK, so still no evidence.
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Re: 3d accelerators on other platforms not PC

Postby IAmJefferson » 2018-3-02 @ 11:50

shiva2004 wrote:
IAmJefferson wrote:ARCADE

- 3Dfx Voodoo (used in Atari's San Francisco Rush and almost a majority of arcade games released by Midway from 1997 to 2001, also used in Konami's Hornet and Viper arcade hardware, as well as on Taito's Wolf System, which is almost based on PC architecture)
- Proprietary IBM OpenGL 3D accelerator (used in Konami's Fighting Bujutsu) (possibly the first arcade game to use OpenGL API)
- Fujitsu's MB86234 (used in SEGA's Model 2 arcade hardware)
- Lockheed Martin Real3D/PRO-1000 (used in SEGA's Model 3 arcade hardware) (also used in Intel's notorious 3D accelerator card, the i740)
- Texas Instruments TMS320C25 (used in Namco's System 22 hardware)
- Fujitsu's MB86233 (used in SEGA's Model 1 hardware)
- Texas Instruments TMS34010 (used in some of Williams/Midway arcade games from 1988 until 1995, Atari's own Hard Drivin' hardware and Microprose's short-lived arcade games, F-15 Strike Eagle and Battle Of The Solar System)
- Motorola MC88110 (used in Virtuality's SU2000 VR hardware, alongside with a stackload of graphics cards)
- Gaelco's own proprietary 3D chip (used in Speed Up!, Surf Planet and Radikal Bikers)

Not to be an ass, but a lot of what you've wrote is wrong:
- Many of the chips that you list as 3D accelerators are in fact DSPs, the actual " accelerators" are a complicated combination of DSPs, graphic chips and other hardware.
- The i740 is nowhere near the level of perfomance and quality of a Real3D/PRO-1000, although the 3D part of the i740 is based on a cut-down version of the Real3D/PRO-1000 architecture.
- As far as I know, early Gaelco 3D games are based on a combination of DSPs and other chips, like Sega and Namco similar hardware.


Corrections:
- The only known accelerators in arcade are the 3Dfx Voodoo series and an OpenGL 3D accelerator made specifically by IBM for Konami's arcade game "Fighting Bujutsu" (also for their RS/6000 workstations). The rest that I've listed there are just graphic processing units and DSPs.
- The Intel i740 is not based on the REAL3D/PRO-1000, but rather it was based on a custom chip created between Lockheed Martin and Intel. The REAL3D/PRO-1000 wasn't meant for the home, mainstream market, as it was targeted to professional applications (such as CAD and flight simulations).
- The Texas Instruments TMS34010 is a graphics processing chip that was used in some of Williams/Midway arcade games from 1988 until 1995, Atari's own Hard Drivin' hardware and Microprose's short-lived arcade games, F-15 Strike Eagle and Battle Of The Solar System, hence it is not classified as a 3D accelerator. The same thing goes to Motorola's MC88110 (which is a microprocessor assistant for rendering 3D graphics) and all of the arcade-based DSPs.
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Re: 3d accelerators on other platforms not PC

Postby SuperDeadite » 2018-3-03 @ 03:20

Another one for the Arcade list is the Konami Hornet (Gradius IV, Silent Scope, etc.)
CPU: PowerPCx64mhz
Graphics: Voodoo 2 Pixel processor 16meg RAM, Voodoo 2 Texture processor with 32meg RAM

Current arcade hardware is typically just a PC with the minimal gpu needed to run the intended games.

There is also the V9000 and V9999 boards for MSX.
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Re: 3d accelerators on other platforms not PC

Postby Scali » 2018-3-03 @ 09:32

IAmJefferson wrote:The rest that I've listed there are just graphic processing units and DSPs.


Where exactly does one draw the line between a '3d accelerator' and 'just graphics processing units and DSPs'?
Early 3d accelerator boards consisted of multiple chips as well, where some of these chips may just be 'graphics processing units', and others may be classed as 'DSPs'.... It's how they are put together that makes the circuit as a whole capable of '3d acceleration' in some way.

And even that is debatable... For example, early SGI systems mainly concentrated on using fast floating point processors to accelerate geometry calculations. Clearly this accelerates a part of the 3d rendering process. So are you correct to call it a '3d accelerator'?
The VooDoo chips mainly concentrated on accelerating the 'inner loop' of rendering: rendering textured and shaded trapezoids.
Again this accelerates part of the 3d rendering process (but certainly not all... VooDoo chips do not process any geometry). Is this a '3d accelerator'?

One could argue that the Amiga chipset is also a '3d accelerator', since the blitter can accelerate line drawing and polygon filling.
On top of that, you can combine the blitter and copper chips so that the copper sends commands to the blitter in the background, while the CPU is free to process other things. This clearly accelerates 3d rendering in two ways:
1) The blitter renders lines and fills polygons at the maximum speed that the memory allows. This is physically impossible with just the 68000 CPU.
2) The copper can 'wait' for the blitter to complete and send the next command, so there is no need for the CPU to hang in a wait loop while the blitter is rendering. The CPU can do other tasks in the meantime, or start processing the next batch of render commands.
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Re: 3d accelerators on other platforms not PC

Postby RaVeN-05 » 2019-2-10 @ 13:53

Heard somewhere is that MAME supports PowerVR (PowerSGL2) so it means some Arcade machines have PowerVR 3d acceleration?

ATI Radeon 8500 or greater exist on Mac OS so it means Mac users seen ATI TruForm on Mac?

Any other API's ?

FM Towns API's? I seen on youtube video where is 3d game (not pixelated) seems have 3d acceleration, will find video and post it there.
OK video here https://youtu.be/rcM7QaxkL60?t=3065 (Look at snow ground)
Seems also can be accelerated? https://youtu.be/rcM7QaxkL60?t=2564

Game names is possible (as you tube user commented):
Strike Commander Plus, I'd wager ;)
Rally RAC I believe

P.S. :
console itself takes care of graphics so its also can be considered as 3d acceleration? and this seems valid for:
3DO (by Phoenix Project Emulation even can be forced bilinear filtering, but not up rendering, more resolutions than native for console)
Playstation (is that why we can use any resolution and bilinear filtering
Playstation 2 (same as for PS1)
SEGA Saturn (currently no texture filtering and uprendering)
SNES (console have hardare rotation and minification and magnification , currently no bilinear filtering for that. example is intro on BattleToads)
PC-FX (have at least Nigrend game so its 3d , and i am not sure this 3d is software implementation, or console do it?)
Other ???
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Re: 3d accelerators on other platforms not PC

Postby leileilol » 2019-2-11 @ 00:30

MAME's PowerVR2.cpp applies to Dreamcast/Naomi/Atomiswave/Naomi2 only, and the only PC analogue is the Neon250 and it doesn't emulate that, also it emulates badly (though snickerbockers is making great strides in it lately). Also before you ask NO it's not trivial to take powervr2.cpp and emulate a powervr1 or 3 elsewhere.... while the DC's PVR2 registers were guess-documented long ago we have never seen the same love for the others. and finally powervr2.cpp does not include incontinents of hexen 2
by the way, DOSBox is not for running Windows 9x
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Re: 3d accelerators on other platforms not PC

Postby RaVeN-05 » 2019-2-11 @ 09:11

How can i download your Q3V? link broken

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Re: 3d accelerators on other platforms not PC

Postby RaVeN-05 » 2019-2-11 @ 23:01

updated first post, so its looks like this =), everything must be tested and defined exactly, now its just abstract minded structure, its so heavy and expensive to check, also interested at least to quick look, more deep here ??? omg. =)
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Re: 3d accelerators on other platforms not PC

Postby GordonFreeman » 2019-2-22 @ 08:06

leileilol wrote:PC9821 has PCX1/2 (NEC PC3DEngine branded PowerVR accelerators)


Do you happen to know which games for the PC-9821 used the PCX1/2?

I just read that the Namco System 23 board used "multiple PowerVR" chips. I've read conflicting things about that, though, so I'm not sure what to believe. One thing that doesn't make sense about that is that the System 23 doesn't have texture filtering - which you would expect it would have if it used PowerVR chips, considering when it came out.

Konami also had their arcade version of the M2, and there were other devices that used the M2 hardware like kiosks (the FZ-35S) and vending machines in Japan.
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Re: 3d accelerators on other platforms not PC

Postby shiva2004 » 2019-2-23 @ 23:09

GordonFreeman wrote:I just read that the Namco System 23 board used "multiple PowerVR" chips. I've read conflicting things about that, though, so I'm not sure what to believe. One thing that doesn't make sense about that is that the System 23 doesn't have texture filtering - which you would expect it would have if it used PowerVR chips, considering when it came out


The PCX1 doesn't support texture filtering.

As for what is a 3D accelerator and what not, to me a 3D accelerator is a chip or chipset designed from the ground up to accelerate 3D graphics as its primary function, as opposed to the use of DSPs or CPUs for the task.
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Re: 3d accelerators on other platforms not PC

Postby leileilol » 2019-2-24 @ 01:10

Given Namco's earlier very capable and very fast Namco System 22 hardware I doubt they'd license PowerVR PCX1 up for 23 especially as that chip can barely pull 30fps. Even MAME doesn't mention any PowerVR involvement for their source in that.

If you do think it's PowerVR though, try to get a still capture and identify through the unavoidable post-dithering, and see if there's any small (<32x32) textures at all.


i personally think the "it uses powervr" might be a random delusion probably assuming from the once cancelled Rave Racer port. or dreamcast community
by the way, DOSBox is not for running Windows 9x
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Re: 3d accelerators on other platforms not PC

Postby GordonFreeman » 2019-2-24 @ 07:15

leileilol wrote:Given Namco's earlier very capable and very fast Namco System 22 hardware I doubt they'd license PowerVR PCX1 up for 23 especially as that chip can barely pull 30fps. Even MAME doesn't mention any PowerVR involvement for their source in that.


What I read said it used multiple PVR chips in parallel, so that part seems plausible. I’ve noticed that people on the internet often get these things wrong with arcade hardware, so there’s no telling if it’s true or not. It’d probably be hard to find a still that’s high quality enough to see dithering.

shiva2004 wrote:The PCX1 doesn't support texture filtering.


Yeah, but the first System 23 games came out in 1997, which is the same year the PCX2 came out — so it’d be kind of weird for them to use the PCX1 instead, though I guess it’s possible.
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