VOGONS


First post, by Siggypony

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

Hello, first time ever basically posting on a forums looking for help with a hardware issue 🤣.

I can't seem to get any pci accelerated graphics cards to work with any of my older motherboards 🙁

Is there something that prevents slightly more modern PCI graphics cards working with older pre AGP time period motherboards?

I have a PCI FX5200 and a brandnew HD2600 Pro (I litterally brought it sealed in box for the most chance of it working)

I am trying to install either of them in 3 computers,

A SL-54A5-S baby AT motherboard with a AMD K5 PR166 processor,
an MI5VP4-1.20 with a AMD K6-2 500
and finally a P5S-VM with another AMD K6-2 500.

Non of these boards will boot either card, but they will boot a PCI ViRGE card.
I've been scouring everywhere I can think and google, but its very hard to type "PCI" into google and
actually get information about PCI graphics cards as oppose to PCIe.

Does anyone know what prevents these cards working? Is it some strange voltage requirement with newer PCI graphics cards, an addressing issue or PCI standards or something?
The HD2600 Pro lists itself as being compatible with K6 processors also.
I have checked both cards in much more modern computers and they are working perfectly fine.

I've basically given up on my dream of having a massively pointlessly bottlenecked retro build for the lolz, but I'd really like to know why they don't work.

I've been working on this for almost 2 weeks and its really bugging me not knowing 🙁

Reply 1 of 19, by BinaryDemon

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

I was watching one of PhilsComputerLab videos the other day about the FX5500 and they pointed out that the PCI version wouldnt work in a system without an AGP slot. I would guess its the same issue with your FX5200 since it's same generation. I don't know why this is, I'm guessing modern (starting with FX?) PCI cards all use a bridging chip to either AGP or PCIe.

Check out DOSBox Distro:

https://sites.google.com/site/dosboxdistro/ [*]

a lightweight Linux distro (tinycore) which boots off a usb flash drive and goes straight to DOSBox.

Make your dos retrogaming experience portable!

Reply 2 of 19, by Siggypony

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

I see, that definitely gives me something more to go on. The HD2600 Pro definitely has a bridging chip. I'll look into that, I'll feel stupid if I've watched that video and forgotten.
The two newer ATX style boards do have AGP bus, but its tied to their dedicated on-board (and crap) GPU's 😒

The FX5200 doesn't, but it does have two 24-Bit Bus Switch's (PI5C16211A) between the pins and the GPU. Based off photos and some badly translated posts on a Russian forum they have something to do with level conversion on the data lines to protect the GPU from 5v old motherboards. Apparently Riva TNT2 PCI cards have the same setup.

Reply 3 of 19, by The Serpent Rider

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

AGP slot has nothing to do with it. Most likely those cards are too power hungry.

they have something to do with level conversion on the data lines to protect the GPU from 5v old motherboards

Pretty much all of them has voltage regulator for 3.3v, so that's probably not the case.

Last edited by The Serpent Rider on 2018-04-20, 06:10. Edited 2 times in total.

Get up, come on get down with the sickness
Open up your hate, and let it flow into me

Reply 4 of 19, by BinaryDemon

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
Siggypony wrote:

The two newer ATX style boards do have AGP bus, but its tied to their dedicated on-board (and crap) GPU's 😒

That would defeat my theory since those boards would atleast have the ability to use the AGP protocol.

How much memory do these K5/K6 systems have? I was wondering if it could be an issue caused by the GPU's having way more vram than system ram?

Check out DOSBox Distro:

https://sites.google.com/site/dosboxdistro/ [*]

a lightweight Linux distro (tinycore) which boots off a usb flash drive and goes straight to DOSBox.

Make your dos retrogaming experience portable!

Reply 5 of 19, by The Serpent Rider

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

if it could be an issue caused by the GPU's having way more vram than system ram?

That's an AGP feature.

Last edited by The Serpent Rider on 2018-04-20, 06:10. Edited 1 time in total.

Get up, come on get down with the sickness
Open up your hate, and let it flow into me

Reply 6 of 19, by cyclone3d

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
BinaryDemon wrote:

I was watching one of PhilsComputerLab videos the other day about the FX5500 and they pointed out that the PCI version wouldnt work in a system without an AGP slot. I would guess its the same issue with your FX5200 since it's same generation. I don't know why this is, I'm guessing modern (starting with FX?) PCI cards all use a bridging chip to either AGP or PCIe.

That shouldn't make a difference. The bridge chip is just that... a chip to let the device work on a bus that it wasn't originally made for.

I'll have to test out my plethora of PCI (normally AGP or PCIe) cards to see if it holds true about the chipset having to support AGP.

I've also got a couple PCI slot to PCIe adapters and I can test that out as well... see how new of a PCIe card will work on a PCI only system.

I have had issues with really old PCI video cards not working on newer motherboards.

It could just have something to do with the BIOS itself. Back int the day quite a few BIOS updates were released to fix issues with certain video cards.

What version of PCI do the motherboards have that the video cards are not working on? What version of PCI do those same video cards support? (Guessing 2.1 for the video cards).

Yamaha YMF modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG resource repository - updated November 27, 2018
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
AW744L II - YMF744 - AOpen Cobra Sound Card - Install SB-Link Header
Epstein didn't kill himself

Reply 7 of 19, by bakemono

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

I have a GeForce 4 MX PCI card that works in an old socket 7 board (at least the one board that I tried it on). But a GeForce 8400GS PCI card didn't work in the same board.

The GF4 has one notch opposite the face plate end. The 8400GS has two notches. According to wiki, cards with two notches are supposed to be "universal" and work with 3.3V and 5V slots though, so maybe that has nothing to do with it.

The wiki page for PCI also shows that there are three power levels allowed for PCI cards; 7.5W, 15W, or 25W. Maybe old motherboards don't support the 25W cards.

Reply 8 of 19, by The Serpent Rider

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

I think they also would not work with Quantum3D Obsidian X-24.

Get up, come on get down with the sickness
Open up your hate, and let it flow into me

Reply 9 of 19, by PC Hoarder Patrol

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

@Siggypony, must be something else in play with your particular setups as I've just tried this on a Jetway J-530BF Baby AT board with a K6-2/550 and this FX5200 PCI card...

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?I … N82E16814133068

...and it booted straight up no problem, though I didn't check it beyond the POST screen / BIOS setup menus.

As @bakemono found, I couldn't get an 8400GS (nor an HD5450) to work.

Reply 10 of 19, by shamino

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
BinaryDemon wrote:

I was watching one of PhilsComputerLab videos the other day about the FX5500 and they pointed out that the PCI version wouldnt work in a system without an AGP slot. I would guess its the same issue with your FX5200 since it's same generation. I don't know why this is, I'm guessing modern (starting with FX?) PCI cards all use a bridging chip to either AGP or PCIe.

I don't believe the Geforce FX5500 was ever produced as a PCI card. The "FX5500" card that Phil has shown in his videos is an unauthorized knockoff from China. That's why it has no Geforce or nVidia branding anywhere on it. If it did, nVidia would be able to sue them for trademark infringement. Assuming they can even find out who they are - there's no manufacturer branding on it either.
If it were a legitimate card, I suspect it would be *required* to carry nVidia branding. Anybody who wants to be supplied by nVidia has to play by nVidia's rules, which likely includes promoting nVidia's brand.

Somebody in China apparently acquired some NOS GPUs and built cards around them to sell on eBay. It's not only the so-called "FX5500" that this happens with.
That's not to say the cards don't work, but who knows what mistakes or shortcuts they may have made in designing them. They might have broken firmware, for example, since nVidia never wrote any for such a card.
I'm not sure that whatever issues those cards have carries over to any of the legitimate models.

Reply 12 of 19, by BinaryDemon

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Phil’s FX5500 might have been questionable but you can still buy FX5500 pci on Newegg that shows GeForce/Nvidia branding (ok it ships from HongKong so..) but a quick google shows legit manufacturers made PCI models like PNY for example.

Check out DOSBox Distro:

https://sites.google.com/site/dosboxdistro/ [*]

a lightweight Linux distro (tinycore) which boots off a usb flash drive and goes straight to DOSBox.

Make your dos retrogaming experience portable!

Reply 13 of 19, by skv400

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

Maybe 32bit PCI graphics card based on AGP Graphics chipset will work older motherboard.

According to my test results,It is mostly compatible with Pentium or higher motherboards.

And it is compatible with some 486 motherboards.

It is a video to play Quake3 by installing PCI type Radeon 9000 on 486 PCI main board. - https://youtu.be/IJYCNxz2ODs

And I also succeeded in using the GeForce 6200 PCI version on the same system.

Youtube Channel : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeaVPa3VMe9nUGDtFtVzvDQ

Reply 14 of 19, by aquishix

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
Siggypony wrote:
Hello, first time ever basically posting on a forums looking for help with a hardware issue lol. […]
Show full quote

Hello, first time ever basically posting on a forums looking for help with a hardware issue lol.

I can't seem to get any pci accelerated graphics cards to work with any of my older motherboards :(

...

I have checked both cards in much more modern computers and they are working perfectly fine.

I've basically given up on my dream of having a massively pointlessly bottlenecked retro build for the lolz, but I'd really like to know why they don't work.

I've been working on this for almost 2 weeks and its really bugging me not knowing :(

A few questions:

1) Have you compared the 5V power output specs of the PSU you're using to power the motherboard(s) to the the 5V power output specs of the ATX PSUs that power the motherboard(s) you've used to test the card on a modern system?

2) Have you ensured that you've got the supplemental 6-pin power header connected on motherboard(s), assuming it's present? (BE CAREFUL with this if it exists and you haven't wired it up, yet.)

3) Have you gone into the BIOS settings and changed the "Init First" type option to PCI instead of AGP?

4) Did you know you can try googling with '-pcie' (without quotes) in the search string? It'll strip all pages that include 'pcie' in the body text.

5) Do you know which PCI version the motherboard adheres to, and which PCI version the cards require?

6) Have you tried putting the card(s) in each of the different PCI slots?

7) Have you updated the system BIOS to the latest version available? Bugs abound with system BIOSes. Sometimes bugs will get fixed which enable whole scads of hardware to work that wouldn't work with a previous version of the system BIOS.

8) Have you tried putting a known working card and one of these cards that you're trying to get working in the same system at the same time, and booting into Windows? I hate to recommend it, but it might actually help figure out what's going on. (You didn't specify which OS(es) you're using on this system.)

9) Have you toggled the "Assign IRQ to PCI" or "Assign IRQ to VGA" options in your system BIOS?

10) You ever dance with The Devil by the pale moonlight? (This is just to see if you're still reading this far. ;))

Reply 15 of 19, by BinaryDemon

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
skv400 wrote:

It is a video to play Quake3 by installing PCI type Radeon 9000 on 486 PCI main board. - https://youtu.be/IJYCNxz2ODs

So I had to watch, wow that was painful - average of 4.8fps.

Check out DOSBox Distro:

https://sites.google.com/site/dosboxdistro/ [*]

a lightweight Linux distro (tinycore) which boots off a usb flash drive and goes straight to DOSBox.

Make your dos retrogaming experience portable!

Reply 16 of 19, by candle_86

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

its the PCI revision, the FX series and above are for PCI 2.2/2.3 stictly while your board is very likely PCI 2.1, and sorry to say it the way Nvidia designed it and ATI it simply wont work. Remember PCI 2.2 was from 1998, and 2.1 is from 95, Nvidia likely didn't imagine anyone running a 2003 card on a computer of that vintage, as it couldn't really utilize it.

Phenom II X4 840T @ 4ghz - ASUS M3N72D-SLI - GTX 560 Ti- 4GB DDR2 1066 - 1TB HDD - Windows XP
Pentium 4 3.4C - MSI 865PE NEO2 - x850 XT PE - 2GB DDR 400 - 500GB HDD - Windows XP
Duron 1600 - ASUS A7N8X - 512MB DDR 266 - Radeon 8500 LE

Reply 17 of 19, by PCBONEZ

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
shamino wrote:
I don't believe the Geforce FX5500 was ever produced as a PCI card. The "FX5500" card that Phil has shown in his videos is an u […]
Show full quote
BinaryDemon wrote:

I was watching one of PhilsComputerLab videos the other day about the FX5500 and they pointed out that the PCI version wouldnt work in a system without an AGP slot. I would guess its the same issue with your FX5200 since it's same generation. I don't know why this is, I'm guessing modern (starting with FX?) PCI cards all use a bridging chip to either AGP or PCIe.

I don't believe the Geforce FX5500 was ever produced as a PCI card. The "FX5500" card that Phil has shown in his videos is an unauthorized knockoff from China. That's why it has no Geforce or nVidia branding anywhere on it. If it did, nVidia would be able to sue them for trademark infringement. Assuming they can even find out who they are - there's no manufacturer branding on it either.
If it were a legitimate card, I suspect it would be *required* to carry nVidia branding. Anybody who wants to be supplied by nVidia has to play by nVidia's rules, which likely includes promoting nVidia's brand.

Somebody in China apparently acquired some NOS GPUs and built cards around them to sell on eBay. It's not only the so-called "FX5500" that this happens with.
That's not to say the cards don't work, but who knows what mistakes or shortcuts they may have made in designing them. They might have broken firmware, for example, since nVidia never wrote any for such a card.
I'm not sure that whatever issues those cards have carries over to any of the legitimate models.

FX5500.jpg
Filename
FX5500.jpg
File size
55.17 KiB
Views
622 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

========================

Please note that the 3.3v vs 5v and the slot keying has to do with the SIGNALING voltage [I/O], not the DC power voltage.
Those are the 33MHz, 66MHz and various AGP frequencies.
DC power is 0 Hz.
I'm pretty sure all versions of PCI and AGP have 3.3v and 5v DC power available to the card.
If they utilize or not is up to the card designer.
[Just posted because some posters seem confused about that. Others clearly not.]
.

GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.

Reply 18 of 19, by shamino

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Back when I searched for legitimate Geforce FX5500 PCI cards I didn't find them, but I didn't try real hard. I was probably just looking at a list on that "GPU boss" site or something. The PNY example that was mentioned can be seen here.
https://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?I … N82E16814133134
I accept that they exist.

Regardless, I maintain that whatever issues Phil had with the knockoff card in his video should not be generalized as relevant to the behavior of legitimate Geforce cards that were produced under an nVidia license. We have no idea what kind of unique screwups might occur in the design and construction of a gray market card like that. Whoever produced them doesn't have a contract with nVidia, isn't accountable to nVidia's standards, and doesn't have access to nVidia for proprietary info about design and construction, etc.
The existence of legitimate Geforce FX5500 PCI cards does imply that they might have "acquired" a valid firmware to put on the knockoff cards, however. It would be interesting if somebody who has one of them could dump the ROM and see if it matches anything known.
Since they didn't want to infringe on nVidia's trademark, I'm curious if they were willing to violate nVidia's copyright on the firmware. If the manufacturer wanted to stay on the side of legality they would have had to roll their own, and who knows what glitches that might lead to.

Reply 19 of 19, by GuillermoXT

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

I thought I was the only one with the problem ^^

Tried the axle FX5500 256mb pci but my system doesn't show anything on VGA or DVI

I have the GA 586 TX 3 with k6 2 400
SbPro2, Fastrack Ultra 100, Matrox + Voodoo 1
Power supply has 420W

Did someone got finally one of these more than PCI graphics card running on such an old system?

GA-586TX-3 Mainboard
K6-2 400 CPU AFQ (6x66mhz)
128MB Ram
Matrox Mystique 4MB + Voodoo 1 4MB
4x USB 2.0 hub PCI
Fastrack Ultra 100 PCI
80gb HDD
Sound Blaster Pro 2 ISA