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AGP is a bloody nightmare

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First post, by Vipersan

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So ..I am trying to build the best 98 XP gaming machine I can ..
I have an ASUS CUV4X mobo with one ISA slot ..
Great I thought ..I can fit my AWE64 in that ..
So I built the win98 OS and installed everything except a graphics card ..
So far so good ..
I checked I had the latest bios installed dated 2002
and chose my Gigabyte Nvidia Geforce 6600 GT Silent-pipe ..
Which as far as I know is an AGP8x card ..
The bios indicates I can only fit AGP4x ..
I was hoping this would just be a power issue ..since the 6600GT has a molex connecter for additional power.
Keep in mind everything works ..up until I install the graphics drivers for the card ..
reboot and as soon as I pass the login dcreen ..it goes blank and the monitor goes to sleep.
I guess 8x into 4x doesnt go afterall..
So I guess I'll have to remove the drivers ..and the card and go for something 4X ..
unless one of you guys have any suggestions ?

Perhaps there is an award 3rd party bios for this mobo ..that actually allows 8x cards ..?
but then again ..it may be this is a hardware issue ..so no tweaking will allow the 6600GT to work in this mobo..
I've now spent rather a lot of hours trying to force this to work..and am about to throw in the towel.
anyone ?

Reply 1 of 54, by canthearu

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So what is the rest of your hardware?

The 6600GT isn't a good card to choose for windows 98. It works great on XP, but drivers on win98 are a bit buggy and painful to use.

You may also need to install chipset drivers for the AGP card.

Overall, AGP hasn't given me a lot of trouble. Some boards are better or worse than others though. Early VIA AGP boards were the most buggy.

Edit: I see you have one of those terrible VIA AGP boards.

I presume that you can plug the 6600GT in and it doesn't catch fire and stuff. You will need to set 2x AGP as the maximum speed in the BIOS, I have not been able to get 4x AGP working on my one, but this is not a big problem on these boards, as they are not fast enough to really need AGP 4x.

In win 98, you will need to install the older VIA 4in1's you can download from the VIA website. Then install the nvidia graphics drivers, I think you will need either a 7x.xx or 8x.xx series driver.

Last edited by canthearu on 2018-08-18, 12:50. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 2 of 54, by stamasd

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If the card is AGP 3.0 (which either 4x and 8x can be) then it requires 0.8V. AGP4x usually signals at 1.5V. You may have a voltage mismatch. See this: http://www.playtool.com/pages/agpcompat/agp.html

Or I may be completely wrong. Especially since the card works until drivers are installed. I have seen video cards that would do this when they were damaged in some way (bad memory chips etc) but not quite dead yet - they work as basic VGA framebuffers but when you install drivers that unlock extra capabilities they don't work anymore. I have several which act this way.

I/O, I/O,
It's off to disk I go,
With a bit and a byte
And a read and a write,
I/O, I/O

Reply 3 of 54, by Vipersan

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The actual graphics card is OK i guess ..
I can run in 1024x768 truecolour ..as suggested by setting AGP to 2X mode in the bios ..
but why it wont allow 4x ..has me very confused indeed..

I assume the 6600 GT is the same as the 6600

NVIDIA GeForce 6600 Universal 1.5V AGP 3.0 Card

My assumption is that although the CUV4X will accommodate the card and will run at 2X ...strictly speaking there are compatibility issues ..be this hardware or bios ?

I'll repeat the thread title 'AGP is a blooody nighmare' ...and not easy to understand imo

Reply 4 of 54, by canthearu

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Vipersan wrote:

The actual graphics card is OK i guess ..
I can run in 1024x768 truecolour ..as suggested by setting AGP to 2X mode in the bios ..
but why it wont allow 4x ..has me very confused indeed..

Buggy chipset or AGP drivers I guess. AGP 4x could sometimes work on these boards for a small range of situations, but crashes, lockups and black screens are extremely common if you try to use AGP 4x on these boards.

The Apollo Pro 133A chipset actually gave me the most problems with AGP. My other dozen boards really just work pretty trouble free once I install the appropriate VIA 4in1's

Reply 5 of 54, by Vipersan

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The problem I may well be finding the incorrect 4 in 1s ..
I dont have the mobo chipset driver install CD for this one ..so just grabbed the most recent listed for the CUV4x from the ASUS site.
Is there such a site as a an ISO image archive of motherboard CDs ..
if not ..then perhaps there should be ..
I have lots of such CDs ..for various motherboards..but not this one..
cest la vie

Reply 6 of 54, by canthearu

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Vipersan wrote:
The problem I may well be finding the incorrect 4 in 1s .. I dont have the mobo chipset driver install CD for this one ..so just […]
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The problem I may well be finding the incorrect 4 in 1s ..
I dont have the mobo chipset driver install CD for this one ..so just grabbed the most recent listed for the CUV4x from the ASUS site.
Is there such a site as a an ISO image archive of motherboard CDs ..
if not ..then perhaps there should be ..
I have lots of such CDs ..for various motherboards..but not this one..
cest la vie

While you are welcome to chase the mythical 4x AGP unicorn on this motherboard if you want, just realize that in terms of performance, it is a pretty pointless exercise, and you will probably not see success, or at least, only limited success.

Reply 7 of 54, by Vipersan

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LoL ..
😀
lifes too short to chase unicorns..
I do appreciate your help though..
rgds
VS

In my world unicorns would be outlawed ..and super socket 7s would' not cost so much..
🤣

Last edited by Vipersan on 2018-08-18, 14:56. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 8 of 54, by Koltoroc

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stamasd wrote:

If the card is AGP 3.0 (which either 4x and 8x can be) then it requires 0.8V. AGP4x usually signals at 1.5V. You may have a voltage mismatch. See this: http://www.playtool.com/pages/agpcompat/agp.html

Or I may be completely wrong. Especially since the card works until drivers are installed. I have seen video cards that would do this when they were damaged in some way (bad memory chips etc) but not quite dead yet - they work as basic VGA framebuffers but when you install drivers that unlock extra capabilities they don't work anymore. I have several which act this way.

You are wrong. While AGP 8x specifies 0.8V there was no AGP 8x card that did not support 1.5V. and AGP 4x. The described behavior can come from driver issues or a broken card. On these old card the 3D portion can fail while 2d still works.

Reply 10 of 54, by Vipersan

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I suppose it would be prudent to check all features of the 6600 card and make sure it all works.
Could someone suggest software that will install ..run ..benchmark and thoroughly test the cards features in 98se ?
rgds
VS

Reply 11 of 54, by canthearu

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3dmark2003 is one of the early DX9 benchmarks. Then 3dmark2005 is a more advanced DX9 benchmark.

Can also test Doom 3, but will probably be a little too slow on a PIII.

You can also ask if it plays crysis as well 😀

Edit: i just bought a Geforce 3 Ti200 (dell branded) for my P-III 1ghz. Going to see how that goes.

Reply 12 of 54, by Vipersan

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Hmmm ..
Have I had the 6600 working in 4x mode ..??
Yes..
Is it Stable ??
No ...
and this is why I think..
Basically the CUV4X AGP uses a shared interrupt ..
with what I dont know ..but I suspect it is IDE port related.
Any attempt to install 4 in 1 /miniport drivers ..does not complete ..and throws up a registry error ..98 suggests a reboot ..
so what ..it fixes nothing ..and guess what ..
the CD drive can no longer be seen by windows..
So I removed the mobo from the case ...and assembled all on a table for easier access ..
I removed EVERYthing except the graphics card ..and tried again to get the latest 4 in 1s in ..
same registry error ..even in 2x mode ..
So how to get those damned drivers in a fresh build of 98se ..
Remove the 6600 ..and fit an old sparkle card ..
Simples ..
I could now install the 4 in 1 drivers ...and once they were in ...swap back the 6600 ..and install the drivers.
It now lets me boot roughly 3 times in 4 ..in 4x mode ..
occasionally ..sadly blank screen ..
This I believe is because the AGP slot is interrupt sharing ..so is very hit n miss ..
It is more stable in 2x mode so I will have to be content with that I suppose .
This in my opnion is nothing short of a via chipset/mobo design flaw.

just my 2 cents ..and fwiw.
I will look into trying to change the AGP IRQ share with something else ..but not getting my hopes up.
rgds
VS

Reply 13 of 54, by Vipersan

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Well ..the bench test ran to completion in 640 x 480
AGP2x
So looks like the graphics card is ok ..and the issues are either with the mobo ..or drivers..
I'm thinking mobo.
rgds
VS

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Reply 15 of 54, by F2bnp

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Like others above have said, AGP 4X is really not worth the hassle, it has minimal gains over AGP 2X, if any. I didn't manage to read the entire thread, but I think a lot of your issues might be because of the 6600GT which is not a native AGP card and uses a bridge chip, unlike its bigger brother, the 6800GT. These bridge chips that became far more prevalent later with cards such as the Radeon 3850 AGP and 4650 AGP for example, are known to cause all sorts of issues with older boards, specifically ones from the 440BX/Apollo Pro 133 era. Later chipsets are usually fine, but it's always something to keep in mind.
If you have another, older, card, be sure to try it out and see the difference for yourself.

Reply 16 of 54, by canthearu

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The latest VIA hyperion drivers do not install properly on may older chipsets. You might be OK if you select the AGP driver only during the driver install.

On the Apollo Pro 133A, use the older VIA 4in1 drivers that VIA supply, like I said that on my first reply post 😀 They will install cleanly and work just fine.

Reply 17 of 54, by Standard Def Steve

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Yeah, I had lots of trouble with Nvidia cards on my TUV4X. My 6800GT had poor 2D speed on that board. There were also stability issues with a few 3D benchmarks and games. 3DMark03, for example, would always crash on the Mother Nature test. ATI cards worked much better on that board. Even bridged ATI cards like the x1950Pro worked a treat. So for the CUV4X/TUV4X, I highly recommend the Radeon 9800 Pro instead of the 6600GT. Completely stable, fast 2D, and low driver overhead (I liked Catalyst 5.6).

But, that's not to say that all VIA P3 chipsets are a bloody nightmare. The AGP implementation on my QDI Advance 12T, based on the Apollo Pro 266T DDR chipset, is 100% stable even at 4x. Both 2D and 3D speed are top notch. It even gets through 3DMark's Mother Nature test with nary a glitch!

auesmAI.png

P6 chip. Triple the speed of the Pentium.
Tualatin: PIII-S @ 1628MHz | QDI Advance 12T | 2GB DDR-310 | 6800GT | X-Fi | 500GB HDD | 3DMark01: 14,059
Dothan: PM @ 2.9GHz | MSI Speedster FA4 | 2GB DDR2-580 | GTX 750Ti | X-Fi | 500GB SSD | 3DMark01: 43,190

Reply 18 of 54, by shamino

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F2bnp wrote:

I think a lot of your issues might be because of the 6600GT which is not a native AGP card and uses a bridge chip, unlike its bigger brother, the 6800GT. These bridge chips that became far more prevalent later with cards such as the Radeon 3850 AGP and 4650 AGP for example, are known to cause all sorts of issues with older boards, specifically ones from the 440BX/Apollo Pro 133 era. Later chipsets are usually fine, but it's always something to keep in mind.
If you have another, older, card, be sure to try it out and see the difference for yourself.

I agree, I doubt a bridged card like the 6600GT AGP will ever work correctly with this board.
I once tried to run either a 7600GS or a 6600GT AGP (can't remember which) on the dual CPU version of the same chipset. My symptoms were different, it booted to the desktop okay but it gave corruption in 3D. It was definitely a compatibility issue - the board and the card both work fine elsewhere and the glitched graphics weren't a function of stress, they were a function of what game/scene was being rendered. Something just didn't translate in a way that the parts were happy with. I think the nVidia AGP bridge chip just doesn't work with this chipset.

I also agree with suggestions about using AGP 2X mode. VIA AGP in that time period typically doesn't work well at the advertised maximum speed. If you set VIA AGP to run at half of advertised capability then you'll have less problems and no discernible difference in performance.

Reply 19 of 54, by Vipersan

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Standard Def Steve wrote:
Yeah, I had lots of trouble with Nvidia cards on my TUV4X. My 6800GT had poor 2D speed on that board. There were also stability […]
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Yeah, I had lots of trouble with Nvidia cards on my TUV4X. My 6800GT had poor 2D speed on that board. There were also stability issues with a few 3D benchmarks and games. 3DMark03, for example, would always crash on the Mother Nature test. ATI cards worked much better on that board. Even bridged ATI cards like the x1950Pro worked a treat. So for the CUV4X/TUV4X, I highly recommend the Radeon 9800 Pro instead of the 6600GT. Completely stable, fast 2D, and low driver overhead (I liked Catalyst 5.6).

But, that's not to say that all VIA P3 chipsets are a bloody nightmare. The AGP implementation on my QDI Advance 12T, based on the Apollo Pro 266T DDR chipset, is 100% stable even at 4x. Both 2D and 3D speed are top notch. It even gets through 3DMark's Mother Nature test with nary a glitch!

auesmAI.png

I know it's not the pro version..
These are changing hands for more money than I am comfortable paying for used items..
But I found a working Sapphire ATI Radeon 9800SE 128MB DDR AGP ...on sale in Russia for around 20ukp including delivery ..
gonna take till the end of August to get here ..but is there much difference to the pro version ?
..and will my mobo accept it ok ?
here is a pic of the card..
rgds
VS

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