Fastest AGP video card for Super socket 7 platform?

Discussion about old graphics cards, monitors and video related things.

Re: Fastest AGP video card for Super socket 7 platform?

Postby havli » 2019-6-03 @ 21:17

ruthan wrote:For somebody who never revisited this platform (from use old and new HW together), is first of all hard to imagine that faster videocard would be actually slower than older one which is much slower with all other faster platforms.

This behavior isn't platform specific. Actually it works like this (to some extent) on all CPUs and GPUs.
For example when using P4 Willamette with GF4 Ti 4600 I ran into GPU limit when playing Rally Championship at 1600x1200. So I switched the card for FX 5900 and when that didn't deliver the expected performance I also tried Radeon 9800... both actually ended up the same or even slower that Ti 4600. Despite having much more GPU power. Simply the weak P4 wasn't fast enough to deal with the increased driver overhead.

And the same happens on socket 7. Once the CPU becomes the bottleneck, no matter what GPu power you throw at it, you won't get better fps.

You can check how socket 7 CPUs (and also others of this era) perform with Voodoo3 here. This is completely CPU limited.
http://hw-museum.cz/article/5/cpu-histo ... --1999-/12

And here the opposite - mostly GPU limited
http://hw-museum.cz/article/2/benchmark ... edition-/5


To pick some numbers from both articles, using V3 3000:

GLQuake 800x600
K6-III+ 577 = 78 fps
V3 3000 unlimited = 155 fps

Q3A 800x600 (although the settings might not be exactly the same)
K6-III+ 577 = 42 fps
V3 3000 unlimited = 78 fps

UT 800x600
K6-III+ 577 = 23 fps
V3 3000 unlimited = 61 fps
HW museum.cz - my collection of PC hardware
User avatar
havli
Oldbie
 
Posts: 771
Joined: 2014-11-07 @ 16:51
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Fastest AGP video card for Super socket 7 platform?

Postby ruthan » 2019-6-05 @ 07:05

This behavior isn't platform specific. Actually it works like this (to some extent) on all CPUs and GPUs.
For example when using P4 Willamette with GF4 Ti 4600 I ran into GPU limit when playing Rally Championship at 1600x1200. So I switched the card for FX 5900 and when that didn't deliver the expected performance I also tried Radeon 9800... both actually ended up the same or even slower that Ti 4600. Despite having much more GPU power. Simply the weak P4 wasn't fast enough to deal with the increased driver overhead.

Which OS you use, its still Windows 98 related, or it occurs in WinXP too?

I looked at your benchmarks, there are just classic results, nothing special new etc.. some apps are scaling better with faster GPU, so with faster CPU, something you hit wall on one side.. but we are talking about something else about performance regressions so show me benchmarks, where you are using faster videocards and result is significantly slower than with slower ones.
Im glad, that is was lucky and when i upgraded HW in my machines with some which was expected as faster that it was always at least a bit faster.
Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough HW.
User avatar
ruthan
Oldbie
 
Posts: 987
Joined: 2013-3-07 @ 04:01
Location: Schwarz Wald-from France to Ukraine, from Denmark to Austria. Celts+German+Slavs melting pot.

Re: Fastest AGP video card for Super socket 7 platform?

Postby ph4nt0m » 2019-6-05 @ 09:06

The Radeon and GeForce series cards are an overkill on a K6-III+ even at 600MHz. Maybe there is some advantage over Rage 128 Pro, TNT2 Ultra, G400, Voodoo3 etc. in very high resolutions like 1600x1200 with anisotropic filtering and anti-aliasing enabled.
User avatar
ph4nt0m
Member
 
Posts: 204
Joined: 2018-1-01 @ 19:03

Re: Fastest AGP video card for Super socket 7 platform?

Postby ruthan » 2019-6-05 @ 10:04

Better framerate is always nice, for some time of games. For someone is 30 FPS ok, someone wants 60, 90,120 if he can have it, CRTL and some LCD are capable of it.

Also framerate average is not everything, important is also lowest framerate, how stable framerate is etc.
Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough HW.
User avatar
ruthan
Oldbie
 
Posts: 987
Joined: 2013-3-07 @ 04:01
Location: Schwarz Wald-from France to Ukraine, from Denmark to Austria. Celts+German+Slavs melting pot.

Re: Fastest AGP video card for Super socket 7 platform?

Postby elianda » 2019-6-05 @ 10:53

With a high end AGP card on a SS7 board you will probably burn the power regulators in the long term. A GF6 6600GT may draw 75W peak on AGP, where a late good SS7 board may be able to deliver 20 W through its VRMs (6A @ 3.3V). Earlier boards like the FIC PA-2013 were known to have problems even with a V3 3000 AGP drawing around 10W peak. Ok the GF6 6600GT will idle all the time, but then again a GF2 GTS would do comparably well too and draw only 8W peak.
At the same time you also want to put a K6-III+ 600 MHz or similar on the board which draws also substantial power compared to an average setup.
Retronn.de - Vintage Hardware Gallery, Drivers, Guides, Videos. Now with file search
Youtube Channel
FTP Server - Driver Archive and more
DVI2PCIe alignment and 2D image quality measurement tool
User avatar
elianda
l33t
 
Posts: 2353
Joined: 2006-4-21 @ 16:56
Location: Halle / Germany

Re: Fastest AGP video card for Super socket 7 platform?

Postby BushLin » 2019-6-05 @ 11:28

ruthan wrote:Better framerate is always nice, for some time of games. For someone is 30 FPS ok, someone wants 60, 90,120 if he can have it, CRTL and some LCD are capable of it.

Also framerate average is not everything, important is also lowest framerate, how stable framerate is etc.


You are absolutely right but if you really care about having a minimum (rather than average) frame rate of 60fps on Windows 98 3D titles at native LCD resolutions then you surely wouldn't be limiting yourself to Socket 7.
Screw period correct, I wanted a faster system back then. I choose no dropped frames, super fast loading, fully compatible and quiet operation.
User avatar
BushLin
Member
 
Posts: 145
Joined: 2018-8-01 @ 19:41
Location: 127.0.0.1

Re: Fastest AGP video card for Super socket 7 platform?

Postby The Serpent Rider » 2019-6-05 @ 14:27

GF6 6600GT may draw 75W peak

They draw negligible amount from AGP, so that's actually better than something like GeForce 4 Ti.
User avatar
The Serpent Rider
Oldbie
 
Posts: 1351
Joined: 2017-3-25 @ 19:07
Location: Stagnant Demesne

Re: Fastest AGP video card for Super socket 7 platform?

Postby havli » 2019-6-05 @ 16:34

ruthan wrote: Which OS you use, its still Windows 98 related, or it occurs in WinXP too?

I looked at your benchmarks, there are just classic results, nothing special new etc.. some apps are scaling better with faster GPU, so with faster CPU, something you hit wall on one side.. but we are talking about something else about performance regressions so show me benchmarks, where you are using faster videocards and result is significantly slower than with slower ones.
Im glad, that is was lucky and when i upgraded HW in my machines with some which was expected as faster that it was always at least a bit faster.

Different OS can affect performance of course. However the general principle of newer cards and drivers being more CPU bottlenecked is OS independent. I think the most significant change in drivers vs CPU happened when going from DX9 class GPUs to DX10. For example:

[A] Athlon 64 FX-51 + winXP + GF 7900 GS
[B] Athlon 64 FX-51 + win 7 x64 + GF GTX 285

.............[A].......[B]
HL2.........62.......52
Far Cry.....65.......51
Doom 3.....90......76

And similar drop will happen at older GPU generations too. Once you are completely CPU limited, most likely adding new GPU will do more harm than good... unless you want to run very high resolution with AA/AF. But even then fps will be stil low.
HW museum.cz - my collection of PC hardware
User avatar
havli
Oldbie
 
Posts: 771
Joined: 2014-11-07 @ 16:51
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Fastest AGP video card for Super socket 7 platform?

Postby ruthan » 2019-6-05 @ 16:46

Elianda: Thanks for info, this is good point, could it actual problem of poor performance of more modern cards? That that bad drivers - too robust drivers explanation? At least for modern PCI-E cards is known problem that with lesser than expected power there are underperforming not working etc . There was some AMD Radeon 480 scandal about that even MBs werent able to deriver PCI-E specs i 75W or 50W and there is known problem with some Dell, HP and other thing clients.

By the specs what power AGP 2x should be able to deliver (that 20W), or specs not care about it? What about PCI its better? We can compare same card with AGP / PCI version to get more info.
I have Geforce 6600 GT AGP from Gigabyte - which has additional power connector, i saw at least from some Geforce 4 card with power connector too. I dunno how power inteligent these card are, if they dont get required power from AGP, if there are able to get rest from molex, if they simply count no proper AGP and try to get only certain ammount of power through additional power source.
BTW old cards had such 1 clock, but more modern cards i dunno where it exactly start have some power levels and downclocking for 2D etc.. and maybe, maybe is performance so bad, because there not enough power to switch to next levels for 3D games. There is same problem with Dos on newer cards, because there is not driver at all to switch cards to 3D mode and you can have super fast CPU.. solution for some cards is change boot / 2d clock and write changes to vbios.

Is Socket 370 AGP power delivery better?

If would like to really see details about CPU utilization when is more modern card under-performing on SS7 machine, if there is really CPU maxed on 100%, or not because it would be good indication that problem is elsewhere..

For videocard TDP im using this site (czech) - tables will work with Google translate too, its starting with Radeons 7000 and Geforce 1, older cards are not in list:
https://www.svethardware.cz/prehled-des ... u/23045-16 // At the top are cards type links.. Data source seems to be specs.
GF1 - < 10W
GF2 GTS - 12W
GF 2 PRO- 13
GF 2 TI - 15
GF 2 Ultra - 17
GF 3 - 32
GF 3 TI 200 - 31
GF 3 TI 500 - 35 // So these are working with some SS7 MBs, at least 35W should be ok, or ok with additional power, but i thing that they dont have additional power delivery connector.
GF 4 MX 440 - 22
GF 4 MX 460 - 24
Gerforce 4 TI 4200 - 35
Gerforce 4 TI 4200 - 37
Gerforce 4 TI 4200 - 40
Radeon 9500 or PRO - 12W
Radeon 9600 - 12W
Radeon 9700 -12W
Radeon 9700 Pro - 14W
Radeon 9800 - 34
Radeon 9800 Pro - 47
Radeon 9800 XT - 60
Radeon X1050 AGP - 41
Geforce FX 5200 - 24
Geforce FX 5300 - 24
Geforce FX 5500 - 26
Geforce FX 5500 - 37
Geforce FX 5800 - 44W
Geforce FX 5800 - 49
Geforce FX 5900 XT - 35 // So this still should be ok..
Geforce FX 5900 - 40
Geforce FX 5900 Ultra - 60 or 73 depens on version
Geforce 6200 - 26 -

Cards bellow in some exceptions may not workin AGP 3.3 slots..
Geforce 6500 - 28
Geforce 6600 LE - 22
Geforce 6600 - 24
Geforce 6600 GT - 48
Geforce 6800 LE - 33
Gefoce 6800 XT - 34 // Still ok
Geforce 6800 - 39
Gefoce 6800 GS/GT - 55
Geforce 6800 Ultra - 72
Geforce 7300 GT - 29
Geforce 7600 GS - 27 - - there is AGP 3.3 variant
Geforce 7600 GT - 36
Geforce 7800 GS - 44
Geforce 7900 GS - 45 - there is AGP 3.3 variant
Geforce 7950 GT - 61
Radeon X1300 - 37
Radeon X1600 PRO/XT - 41/42
Radeon X1950 GT - 57
Radeon HD 2400 PRO - 15 W // Totally safe
Radeon HD 2400 XT - 19W
Raddeon HD 2600 PRO - 31
Radeon HD 2600 XT - 49
Radeon HD 3650 - 39 // Its not far from Geforce 3.
Radeon HD 3850 - 63

Its a bit shame that these cards, are cooled with some big passive with would be enough, but were using that awfull small noisy fans running with RPM 4000+
Last edited by ruthan on 2019-6-18 @ 01:34, edited 4 times in total.
Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough HW.
User avatar
ruthan
Oldbie
 
Posts: 987
Joined: 2013-3-07 @ 04:01
Location: Schwarz Wald-from France to Ukraine, from Denmark to Austria. Celts+German+Slavs melting pot.

Re: Fastest AGP video card for Super socket 7 platform?

Postby ruthan » 2019-6-05 @ 16:51

havli wrote:
Different OS can affect performance of course. However the general principle of newer cards and drivers being more CPU bottlenecked is OS independent. I think the most significant change in drivers vs CPU happened when going from DX9 class GPUs to DX10. For example:

[A] Athlon 64 FX-51 + winXP + GF 7900 GS
[B] Athlon 64 FX-51 + win 7 x64 + GF GTX 285

.............[A].......[B]
HL2.........62.......52
Far Cry.....65.......51
Doom 3.....90......76


I think that here is different cause involved, yes lesser framerate in more modern OS, is expected.. more modern videocard driver is other issue.. but here is problem with WIndows 7 that Direct 9 and older is translated by OS itself to something newer, its known problem and its here regardless on machine speed, its not slow cpu or videocards problems, they can do little with it.
Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough HW.
User avatar
ruthan
Oldbie
 
Posts: 987
Joined: 2013-3-07 @ 04:01
Location: Schwarz Wald-from France to Ukraine, from Denmark to Austria. Celts+German+Slavs melting pot.

Re: Fastest AGP video card for Super socket 7 platform?

Postby havli » 2019-6-05 @ 17:08

It is driver related. For example drivers for DX10 GeForce are somewhat multithreaded, while GF7 drivers are not. Dual CPU setup did nothing in games like FarCry with GF7, on the other hand with GTX 285 there was 50+% fps increase...
HW museum.cz - my collection of PC hardware
User avatar
havli
Oldbie
 
Posts: 771
Joined: 2014-11-07 @ 16:51
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Fastest AGP video card for Super socket 7 platform?

Postby ph4nt0m » 2019-6-05 @ 21:55

Cards with RIALTO and HSI bridges don't work in AGP 3.3V only slots.
User avatar
ph4nt0m
Member
 
Posts: 204
Joined: 2018-1-01 @ 19:03

Re: Fastest AGP video card for Super socket 7 platform?

Postby The Serpent Rider » 2019-6-06 @ 02:36

and HSI bridges don't work in AGP 3.3V only slots.

They do work, even GeForce 7950GT from Galaxy.
User avatar
The Serpent Rider
Oldbie
 
Posts: 1351
Joined: 2017-3-25 @ 19:07
Location: Stagnant Demesne

Re: Fastest AGP video card for Super socket 7 platform?

Postby ph4nt0m » 2019-6-06 @ 07:26

The Serpent Rider wrote:
and HSI bridges don't work in AGP 3.3V only slots.

They do work, even GeForce 7950GT from Galaxy.

How are you going to stick that into an AGP 3.3V slot?

Image

Image
User avatar
ph4nt0m
Member
 
Posts: 204
Joined: 2018-1-01 @ 19:03

Re: Fastest AGP video card for Super socket 7 platform?

Postby The Serpent Rider » 2019-6-06 @ 17:32

I am not going to stick that, instead I'll stick these.
User avatar
The Serpent Rider
Oldbie
 
Posts: 1351
Joined: 2017-3-25 @ 19:07
Location: Stagnant Demesne

Re: Fastest AGP video card for Super socket 7 platform?

Postby BushLin » 2019-6-06 @ 17:39

The Serpent Rider wrote:I am not going to stick that, instead I'll stick these.


I guess the next question is what drivers can you can reliably run Windows 98 titles on such a card?
Screw period correct, I wanted a faster system back then. I choose no dropped frames, super fast loading, fully compatible and quiet operation.
User avatar
BushLin
Member
 
Posts: 145
Joined: 2018-8-01 @ 19:41
Location: 127.0.0.1

Re: Fastest AGP video card for Super socket 7 platform?

Postby ph4nt0m » 2019-6-06 @ 17:59

The Serpent Rider wrote:I am not going to stick that, instead I'll stick these.

I know HSI works in 2x mode at 1.5V. So, it seems also to work at 3.3V. That's good because there's no problem for me to make another notch in the PCB :)
User avatar
ph4nt0m
Member
 
Posts: 204
Joined: 2018-1-01 @ 19:03

Re: Fastest AGP video card for Super socket 7 platform?

Postby havli » 2019-6-06 @ 18:04

What is the point of running GF6+ on AGP 2x platform anyway? Even GF 6600 GT with PIII-S on i440BX will be seriously bottlenecked.... not to mention faster cards.
HW museum.cz - my collection of PC hardware
User avatar
havli
Oldbie
 
Posts: 771
Joined: 2014-11-07 @ 16:51
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Fastest AGP video card for Super socket 7 platform?

Postby agent_x007 » 2019-6-06 @ 19:13

Image
Image
User avatar
agent_x007
Oldbie
 
Posts: 1115
Joined: 2016-1-19 @ 11:06

Re: Fastest AGP video card for Super socket 7 platform?

Postby ruthan » 2019-6-07 @ 13:56

havli wrote:It is driver related. For example drivers for DX10 GeForce are somewhat multithreaded, while GF7 drivers are not. Dual CPU setup did nothing in games like FarCry with GF7, on the other hand with GTX 285 there was 50+% fps increase...

I still thing that it is not good argument, because with Vista / Windows 7 for Direct9 and older, all cards from all vendors were every time slower, because of changes of OS API level, which became more robust and it scaled as expected (slower cards, were slower etc..).. Its different scenarios what Win98, where is OS/API always the same.

havli wrote:What is the point of running GF6+ on AGP 2x platform anyway? Even GF 6600 GT with PIII-S on i440BX will be seriously bottlenecked.... not to mention faster cards.

When you look at results with PCI - where is max theoretical speed shared for all devices 133 MB/s, it would be so bad, because 4x make sense when bandwith is bigger than AGP 2x - so better than 512 MB/s even if these machine can to it at all, it would be only for short moments just few spikes, there would be big performance difference. This was time, when it more about specs on paper that real usability of that speeds. Similar as ATA 66/ 100 / 133.. before we got SSDs or had lots of discs in RAID.

BTW ph4nt0m is selling some PCI to AGP adapters, these could be interesting too.

agent_x007 Its nice to see Geforce 7600 GS working with i440BX/ZX and PIII 700. What about performance is so bad idea as someone trying to suggest or at least for Slot 1 its faster that Geforce 3?
Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough HW.
User avatar
ruthan
Oldbie
 
Posts: 987
Joined: 2013-3-07 @ 04:01
Location: Schwarz Wald-from France to Ukraine, from Denmark to Austria. Celts+German+Slavs melting pot.

PreviousNext

Return to Video

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests