VOGONS


Reply 260 of 289, by pentiumspeed

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Tom84 wrote on 2022-11-13, 15:10:

I have decided to dump Extron RGB-HDMI 300A completely. Now I have OSSC 1.7; it works great out of the box 😀 It is not necessarily the cheapest solution, but it works without any headaches.

Finally it is time to have some fun with my Pentium 233 MHX 😁

What is the issues that made you dump the Extron RGB-HDMI 300A? Surely there is another solutions out there that Extron offers other than 300A and not HDMI?

PS: HDMI is very limited in EID programmings.

Cheers,

Great Northern aka Canada.

Reply 261 of 289, by maxtherabbit

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I also upgraded from an Extron 300A to the OSSC. The Extron is a fantastic device, but the sharpness of the OSSC being a pure line multiplier is superior. The Extron also adds a frame of lag, whereas the OSSC does not

Reply 262 of 289, by Tom84

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pentiumspeed wrote on 2022-11-13, 18:55:
What is the issues that made you dump the Extron RGB-HDMI 300A? Surely there is another solutions out there that Extron offer […]
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Tom84 wrote on 2022-11-13, 15:10:

I have decided to dump Extron RGB-HDMI 300A completely. Now I have OSSC 1.7; it works great out of the box 😀 It is not necessarily the cheapest solution, but it works without any headaches.

Finally it is time to have some fun with my Pentium 233 MHX 😁

What is the issues that made you dump the Extron RGB-HDMI 300A? Surely there is another solutions out there that Extron offers other than 300A and not HDMI?

PS: HDMI is very limited in EID programmings.

Cheers,

Sadly, my Extron 300A (which I still have) does not see the VGA input. No matter what, indicator lights up and turns into yellow colour. This may be an issue with the Extron as the VGA signal that comes from Voodoo2 output works just fine on an old 15" CRT monitor, and right now with an OSSC 1.7.

In other words, I dumped my Extron 300A because it seems it is simply broken. Maybe when I have more time, I will try to fix it.

Reply 263 of 289, by drosse1meyer

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Tom84 wrote on 2022-11-19, 19:17:
pentiumspeed wrote on 2022-11-13, 18:55:
What is the issues that made you dump the Extron RGB-HDMI 300A? Surely there is another solutions out there that Extron offer […]
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Tom84 wrote on 2022-11-13, 15:10:

I have decided to dump Extron RGB-HDMI 300A completely. Now I have OSSC 1.7; it works great out of the box 😀 It is not necessarily the cheapest solution, but it works without any headaches.

Finally it is time to have some fun with my Pentium 233 MHX 😁

What is the issues that made you dump the Extron RGB-HDMI 300A? Surely there is another solutions out there that Extron offers other than 300A and not HDMI?

PS: HDMI is very limited in EID programmings.

Cheers,

Sadly, my Extron 300A (which I still have) does not see the VGA input. No matter what, indicator lights up and turns into yellow colour. This may be an issue with the Extron as the VGA signal that comes from Voodoo2 output works just fine on an old 15" CRT monitor, and right now with an OSSC 1.7.

In other words, I dumped my Extron 300A because it seems it is simply broken. Maybe when I have more time, I will try to fix it.

I have the DVI version and amber means its not detecting an input signal or it doesn't like it in some way (e.g. high or unusual refresh rates or other odd video modes).

There are also settings that can be programmed via serial port, perhaps whoever used it before you set it up in a strange way. Or, it could just be bad. Extron products are usually very reliable.

P1: Packard Bell - 233 MMX, Voodoo1, 64 MB, ALS100+
P2-V2: Dell Dimension - 400 Mhz, Voodoo2, 256 MB
P!!! Custom: 1 Ghz, GeForce2 Pro/64MB, 384 MB

Reply 264 of 289, by gen_angry

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So I picked up an Atlona AT-HD500 off ebay for decently cheap. Sadly, it does not come with the power adapter.

While I wait for it to arrive, anyone with one can let me know what the size/type of the barrel jack is on theirs? So I can try to find a power supply for when this arrives.

Thank you 😀

Reply 265 of 289, by bestemor

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Depending on your budget, you might as well go for one of these handy things:
https://www.amazon.com/SoulBay-Universal-Mult … /dp/B01N2K48HR/

(I have absolutely no idea about the Atlona barrel size etc, I just pick the one adapter part/tip that fits the best when I use it, while adhering to the correct +/- current setting...which I don't recall ATM)

Or, you could pay the same for this thing:
https://www.amazon.com/FitPow-AT-HD500-Extend … r/dp/B07NNZY178

Reply 266 of 289, by iraito

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This is a setup i still use and gives me great results (it's an old reply in the VGA capture thread)

Spoiler

After getting all the pieces together i was able to create the cheap capture setup i had in mind, i'm using a VGA2SCART ---> GBS control ----> vga to hdmi converter to get these results, i blame the cheap capture card for most of the blurriness but all in all it seems decent.

Spoiler

file.php?mode=view&id=143958
file.php?mode=view&id=143959
file.php?mode=view&id=143956
file.php?mode=view&id=143955

https://streamable.com/lenc26

https://streamable.com/yjp6dt

EDIT:Finally ludicrously sharp DOS capturing

EDIT2: I remember reading that jazz jackrabbit wouldn't scroll correctly on a matrox card (i think this information is still in the wiki) but it works perfectly on my G200
https://streamable.com/sptfnr

I had to lower my CPU speed with setmul but that means that the problem is related to the CPU's speed and not the GPU

xjCZpgo.png

If you wanna check a blue ball playing retro PC games

Reply 267 of 289, by gen_angry

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gen_angry wrote on 2023-01-08, 11:20:

So I picked up an Atlona AT-HD500 off ebay for decently cheap. Sadly, it does not come with the power adapter.

While I wait for it to arrive, anyone with one can let me know what the size/type of the barrel jack is on theirs? So I can try to find a power supply for when this arrives.

Thank you 😀

So it arrived yesterday, measured the plug and ordered one off amazon which arrived today. For anyone looking in the future, it takes a 5V 2.6A adapter with a 5.5mm x 2.1mm center-positive barrel plug. Length on mine is 9mm and it's pretty much a perfect fit.

Sadly, DOS input is taken as 640x350 rather than 720x400 and has a pretty severe overscan but you can fix it with the menu a bit. Unfortunately I can't seem to get rid of the vertical overscan. Others/Windows resolutions are practically perfect just by pressing the autoadjust button. Quality overall is leagues better than the cheap aixxco adapter that I previously tried, no grainy backgrounds at all.

I will have to figure something out for the vertical overscan but I feel that's much easier to fix/handle than trying to improve the quality.

Happy with this purchase 😀

Reply 268 of 289, by darry

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gen_angry wrote on 2023-01-19, 17:47:
So it arrived yesterday, measured the plug and ordered one off amazon which arrived today. For anyone looking in the future, it […]
Show full quote
gen_angry wrote on 2023-01-08, 11:20:

So I picked up an Atlona AT-HD500 off ebay for decently cheap. Sadly, it does not come with the power adapter.

While I wait for it to arrive, anyone with one can let me know what the size/type of the barrel jack is on theirs? So I can try to find a power supply for when this arrives.

Thank you 😀

So it arrived yesterday, measured the plug and ordered one off amazon which arrived today. For anyone looking in the future, it takes a 5V 2.6A adapter with a 5.5mm x 2.1mm center-positive barrel plug. Length on mine is 9mm and it's pretty much a perfect fit.

Sadly, DOS input is taken as 640x350 rather than 720x400 and has a pretty severe overscan but you can fix it with the menu a bit. Unfortunately I can't seem to get rid of the vertical overscan. Others/Windows resolutions are practically perfect just by pressing the autoadjust button. Quality overall is leagues better than the cheap aixxco adapter that I previously tried, no grainy backgrounds at all.

I will have to figure something out for the vertical overscan but I feel that's much easier to fix/handle than trying to improve the quality.

Happy with this purchase 😀

The 640x350 part and overscan are known issues with Atlona units on at least some firmware versions.

Re: VGA Capture Thread
Re: DOS games with weird resolutions?
Re: Problems using my new capture card to record old PCs

Reply 269 of 289, by gen_angry

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darry wrote on 2023-01-19, 18:41:
The 640x350 part and overscan are known issues with Atlona units on at least some firmware versions. […]
Show full quote
gen_angry wrote on 2023-01-19, 17:47:
So it arrived yesterday, measured the plug and ordered one off amazon which arrived today. For anyone looking in the future, it […]
Show full quote
gen_angry wrote on 2023-01-08, 11:20:

So I picked up an Atlona AT-HD500 off ebay for decently cheap. Sadly, it does not come with the power adapter.

While I wait for it to arrive, anyone with one can let me know what the size/type of the barrel jack is on theirs? So I can try to find a power supply for when this arrives.

Thank you 😀

So it arrived yesterday, measured the plug and ordered one off amazon which arrived today. For anyone looking in the future, it takes a 5V 2.6A adapter with a 5.5mm x 2.1mm center-positive barrel plug. Length on mine is 9mm and it's pretty much a perfect fit.

Sadly, DOS input is taken as 640x350 rather than 720x400 and has a pretty severe overscan but you can fix it with the menu a bit. Unfortunately I can't seem to get rid of the vertical overscan. Others/Windows resolutions are practically perfect just by pressing the autoadjust button. Quality overall is leagues better than the cheap aixxco adapter that I previously tried, no grainy backgrounds at all.

I will have to figure something out for the vertical overscan but I feel that's much easier to fix/handle than trying to improve the quality.

Happy with this purchase 😀

The 640x350 part and overscan are known issues with Atlona units on at least some firmware versions.

Re: VGA Capture Thread
Re: DOS games with weird resolutions?
Re: Problems using my new capture card to record old PCs

Yea, I'm reading that which is quite disappointing. However, somehow this guy fixed it: VGA Capture Thread he has a different firmware than I do though. Maybe it can be downgraded, will maybe have to open it up and see.

Will have to keep tinkering. Have tried it with different cables so far, bypassing the voodoo, bypassing the KVM, different Win98 machine in DOS mode. All seem to have the same issue.

Reply 270 of 289, by darry

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gen_angry wrote on 2023-01-19, 18:54:
darry wrote on 2023-01-19, 18:41:
The 640x350 part and overscan are known issues with Atlona units on at least some firmware versions. […]
Show full quote
gen_angry wrote on 2023-01-19, 17:47:
So it arrived yesterday, measured the plug and ordered one off amazon which arrived today. For anyone looking in the future, it […]
Show full quote

So it arrived yesterday, measured the plug and ordered one off amazon which arrived today. For anyone looking in the future, it takes a 5V 2.6A adapter with a 5.5mm x 2.1mm center-positive barrel plug. Length on mine is 9mm and it's pretty much a perfect fit.

Sadly, DOS input is taken as 640x350 rather than 720x400 and has a pretty severe overscan but you can fix it with the menu a bit. Unfortunately I can't seem to get rid of the vertical overscan. Others/Windows resolutions are practically perfect just by pressing the autoadjust button. Quality overall is leagues better than the cheap aixxco adapter that I previously tried, no grainy backgrounds at all.

I will have to figure something out for the vertical overscan but I feel that's much easier to fix/handle than trying to improve the quality.

Happy with this purchase 😀

The 640x350 part and overscan are known issues with Atlona units on at least some firmware versions.

Re: VGA Capture Thread
Re: DOS games with weird resolutions?
Re: Problems using my new capture card to record old PCs

Yea, I'm reading that which is quite disappointing. However, somehow this guy fixed it: VGA Capture Thread he has a different firmware than I do though. Maybe it can be downgraded, will maybe have to open it up and see.

Will have to keep tinkering. Have tried it with different cables so far, bypassing the voodoo, bypassing the KVM, different Win98 machine in DOS mode. All seem to have the same issue.

Unfortunately, I don't see any easy way to flash different firmware . I own a CYP SY-P293 which is the same hardware as the Startech VGA2HDMI Pro and the Atlona AT-HD500 (my guess is that CYP is the original designer and OEM manufacturer of all these) and the firmware seems to be stored in an MCU that has the ability to read protected its onboard flash storage (see Re: VGA Capture Thread and it is hard to imagine through what mechanism any firmware could be flashed to the scaler through its motherboard (no exposed USB or serial port or obvious equivalent header).

Maybe a firmware flash is possible through some undocumented mean (JTAG or something similar), but that would imply finding out how to to do it, finding or writing from scratch any required software and sourcing compatible firmware .

Maybe there exists a relatively straightforward way to flash the MCU directly, but one would still need to own or buy/build a compatible programmer and source firmware (if the MCU is read protected that likely won't be easy, but there might be a way to do this).

TLDR: Unless you or someone you know is very knowledgeable about either the MCU used or the hardware platform, you will either need to live with the device's limitations (possibly work around them, if possible ) or get a device which is more suitable as flashing the firmware likely won't be possible AFAIU .

Reply 271 of 289, by gen_angry

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darry wrote on 2023-01-20, 03:59:
Unfortunately, I don't see any easy way to flash different firmware . I own a CYP SY-P293 which is the same hardware as the Sta […]
Show full quote
gen_angry wrote on 2023-01-19, 18:54:
darry wrote on 2023-01-19, 18:41:
The 640x350 part and overscan are known issues with Atlona units on at least some firmware versions. […]
Show full quote

The 640x350 part and overscan are known issues with Atlona units on at least some firmware versions.

Re: VGA Capture Thread
Re: DOS games with weird resolutions?
Re: Problems using my new capture card to record old PCs

Yea, I'm reading that which is quite disappointing. However, somehow this guy fixed it: VGA Capture Thread he has a different firmware than I do though. Maybe it can be downgraded, will maybe have to open it up and see.

Will have to keep tinkering. Have tried it with different cables so far, bypassing the voodoo, bypassing the KVM, different Win98 machine in DOS mode. All seem to have the same issue.

Unfortunately, I don't see any easy way to flash different firmware . I own a CYP SY-P293 which is the same hardware as the Startech VGA2HDMI Pro and the Atlona AT-HD500 (my guess is that CYP is the original designer and OEM manufacturer of all these) and the firmware seems to be stored in an MCU that has the ability to read protected its onboard flash storage (see Re: VGA Capture Thread and it is hard to imagine through what mechanism any firmware could be flashed to the scaler through its motherboard (no exposed USB or serial port or obvious equivalent header).

Maybe a firmware flash is possible through some undocumented mean (JTAG or something similar), but that would imply finding out how to to do it, finding or writing from scratch any required software and sourcing compatible firmware .

Maybe there exists a relatively straightforward way to flash the MCU directly, but one would still need to own or buy/build a compatible programmer and source firmware (if the MCU is read protected that likely won't be easy, but there might be a way to do this).

TLDR: Unless you or someone you know is very knowledgeable about either the MCU used or the hardware platform, you will either need to live with the device's limitations (possibly work around them, if possible ) or get a device which is more suitable as flashing the firmware likely won't be possible AFAIU .

Yea, starting to realize that. They don't offer firmware binaries either for this product. Thanks 😀 I'll get a splitter and just use it for recording stuff - have the real image go directly to a screen to play off of. At least for now, maybe some day I'll just save up for an OSSC and solve the issue for good.

At least other resolutions work extremely well and this was pretty cheap anyways.

Reply 272 of 289, by dekkit

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Just to chime in as ive been on this journey recently... Ive been surprised how challenging it is to get old dos rigs to display properly on most lcd panels (ie parts screen image missing). Ive been using a mix of different lcd 'square' panels with not much joy.

After a bit of disappointment with cheap vga to hdmi (they mostly worked, sharp image but screen was slightly cut off too).

I recently tried the extron 300 - the DVI one as it was about $25 USD
https://www.extron.com/article/rgbhdmidvi300rave

Had to play around with the 'input configuration' menu and mostly with the values for ' start' which resulted in mostly stable results.(see pic for menu)

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A few dos games would throw it out at different stages (ie sensible world of soccer - menus fine, but the match would need further manual tuning)

Overall does a pretty decent job.

Comparison

Cheap vga to hdmi (ali express) - see left side of screen - missing part of game board.

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Extron 300 - entire game board fits

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Reply 273 of 289, by kwakwak

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Hello everyone.
I am also interested in vga to hdmi scalers for ms-dos games in order to record them.
So far, by looking into lots of youtube videos and websites (vogons included), I haven't found answers yet.

I use a Avermedia Live Gamer Mini for the capture.
I have bought a cheapVGA2HDMI adapter but the Avermedia doesn't like DOS resolutions (320x200 or 640x400). So I have to use a cheap Scart 2 HDMI device (with HDMI input) in order to make the Avermedia recognize the video. But this device displays messages every time the in-game resolution changes (I am playing Ripper at the moment, a FMV point and click) and this is awful.
I have tried with GBS-C too (which have VGA input) but no luck.

I have read that people here are quite satisfied by the Extron RGB-HDMI 300a (though it is quite hard to find in france)
Does the Extron display messages when changing resolutions?

Last edited by kwakwak on 2023-01-24, 17:20. Edited 1 time in total.

Windows 98SE / Pentium 4 / GeForce FX5500

Reply 274 of 289, by iraito

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kwakwak wrote on 2023-01-24, 16:05:
Hello everyone. I am also interested in vga to hdmi scalers for ms-dos games in order to record them. So far, by looking into lo […]
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Hello everyone.
I am also interested in vga to hdmi scalers for ms-dos games in order to record them.
So far, by looking into lots of youtube videos and websites (vogons included), I haven't found answers yet.

I use a Avermedia Live Gamer Mini for the capture.
I have bought a cheapVGA2HDMI adapter but the Avermedia doesn't like DOS resolutions (320x200 or 640x400). So I have to use a cheap Scart 2 HDMI device (with HDMI input) in order to make the Avermedia recognize the video. But this device displays messages every time the in-game resolution changes (I am playing Ripper at the moment, a FMV point and click) and this is awful.
I have tried with GBS-C too (which have VGA input) but no luck.

I have read that people here are quite satisfied by the Extron RGB-HDMI 300a (though it is quite hard ton find in france)
Does the Extron display messages when changing resolutions?

The GBS control requires a VGA2SCART or similar devices to convert RGBHV (VGA) to RGBs (SCART), i use that setup and i can't complain about the results.

xjCZpgo.png

If you wanna check a blue ball playing retro PC games

Reply 275 of 289, by dekkit

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kwakwak wrote on 2023-01-24, 16:05:

I have read that people here are quite satisfied by the Extron RGB-HDMI 300a (though it is quite hard to find in france)
Does the Extron display messages when changing resolutions?

I have only done limited testing, but with Sensible world of soccer as soon as left the main menu the resolution changed and threw out my tuning.

No messages as such but if you are streaming that may become just as annoying.

For games like doom, wolf3d, Jones in the fast lane, Jill in of the jungle it seems quite stable going from dos 6.22 into the game.

iraito wrote on 2023-01-24, 16:20:

The GBS control requires a VGA2SCART or similar devices to convert RGBHV (VGA) to RGBs (SCART), i use that setup and i can't complain about the results.

I'm keen to test this out too, huge fan of the gbs control but results were horrible when using its vga in port and RGB HV.

I have also read using a sync combiner (which is what that VGA2SCART is doing) is key thing when using gbs. So glad to read of your experience with old dos rigs - I will add a sync combiner and test for myself. I'm really wanting a no fuss 'set and forget' budget solution as My goals are more on compatibilty.

Note : VGA2SCART looks to use the XNOR method to combine sync from reading through pcb parts linked to:
https://www.retrorgb.com/vga-to-scart-sync-combiner.html

Reply 276 of 289, by iraito

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Yep it does just that and take into account that the pictures you see posted are passing through a generic capture card that's a bit blurry and has a horrible red channel resolution, the results are incredibly crisp and you can center the picture in pretty much all cases, i was also able to upscale a res of 640x480 to pretty good results, it's honestly one of the best methods for this kind of stuff, it's opensource, readly available and cheap.

xjCZpgo.png

If you wanna check a blue ball playing retro PC games

Reply 277 of 289, by dekkit

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GBS Control + HV to C sync Combiner

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Shows a lot of promise with the picture being so much more stable and better with h&v sync converted to singular c sync.

The pic was how it looked on first power up and outputting at 1280 x 960 to my dell wide screen (which would not accept the original msdos vga signal at all originally).

Cant believe how much of a difference just converting hv sync to c sync makes with gbs control.

I need to move and scale the picture a bit but will clean up my prototyping first.

UPDATED. #1
- added a few more pics..
i had the following intermittent distortion / when rebooting the gbs (irrespective of screen - as seen in the sony).

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While I thought it was signal noise, when I redid my sync combiner circuit it was still appearing. I began playing with the web ui in gbs control to see if there was anything to fix it.

Under 'Picture Control', messing with the arrows whilst in 'move' and also 'scale' mode (see base of pic) - did the trick to remove the intermittent blur/ distortion and centre the image well.

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Unfortunately I kept losing Wi-Fi connection to the gbs before I could get it completely right and centred and take a final shot (I need to relocate the Wi-Fi on it).

Overall gbs control is a bit more work but the picture quality is shaping up to very decent.

As an aside - i tried the gbs 8200 in its original non-gbscontrol mode - even with c sync it couldnt detect the input.

UPDATE #2
After much further messing with gbs control (moving the Wi-Fi chip further away to improve connectivity, amending the sync combiner circuit to add a 470r on c sync out) this is the best I was able to get it.

The picture sharpness was excellent, but I couldnt figure out how correct the far right of the screen (through scaling and move buttons on web ui) - no matter what resolution.

This is likely a combination my graphics card/chip ( GPU is a CHIPS F65540), lcd monitor, and gbs control.

Note: It displays boot screens, bios, initial dos prompts etc cleanly.

Im not running any gfx driver in for ms dos so that may also be a factor with my video card.

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kwakwak wrote on 2023-01-24, 16:05:

I have tried with GBS-C too (which have VGA input) but no luck.

Really recommend trying it again with a sync combiner (XOR method) - it makes a huge/massive difference if you haven't already

Last edited by dekkit on 2023-01-29, 02:33. Edited 2 times in total.

Reply 278 of 289, by maxtherabbit

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From my memory of conversations with Rama - the reason GBS-C works so much better with composite sync has nothing to do with hardware or the physical characteristics of the signal. It is because the sync detection routines he uses in software are optimized for c-sync

Reply 279 of 289, by iraito

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If you want a better connection you need to setup a permanent hotspot in GBS, that makes everything a lot easier.

All in all it's a matter of trying different upscaling types and messing with some options but once optimized and saved a specific preset it's pretty much golden in terms of quality.

xjCZpgo.png

If you wanna check a blue ball playing retro PC games