VOGONS


First post, by Tesla

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I just need some comparison and I can't find it...

I have this now : x53w71oxbk.jpg

But it has a slight offset... In DOS, the screen postion perfectly calibrated. Once I start a game, the horizontal position goes about 1cm to the right. I can correct this within the monitor, but exiting the game results in the dos-prompt off-screen.

I can buy this : 5nwk0rz.jpg

That's a downgrade. But if there are no difference in DOS, then I could consider buying it.

Any thoughts ?

Reply 2 of 15, by Anonymous Coward

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I once made a comparison between S3-968 and Trio64 on VLB. I believe the Trio64 was the fastest VLB card I tested in DOS (but all VLB cards are fairly close). The 968 was about 5% slower in DOS, but in Windows it could be quite a bit faster if you ran resolutions higher than 800x600x64k. I would easily recommend either of them though. The Trio64 (764) is supposed to be an 864 with integrated clockgen and RAMDAC, so I suppose performance of the 864 and Trio64 should be almost identical.

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Reply 4 of 15, by The Serpent Rider

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968 has better GUI performance and should be faster at high resolutions in DOS, but 486 obviously can't utilize that.

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Reply 5 of 15, by kixs

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There is no difference in DOS and 96x is faster in Windows at any resolution/color depth. But then again many other cards are just as fast or only slightly slower in DOS.

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Reply 7 of 15, by mpe

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From my experiments with 868 and 968 I remember that the VRAM benefit is really only at high-res/depts in Windows (Graphics Winmark score) and high refresh rates. That means 1024x768 65k up

In fact, at low res, the 868 was a bit faster and even in DOS (by a tiny margin). Presumably due to a much faster stock clock on my card.

But it could be different than on 864/964 series, as most S3 868 (or Trio64) cards use EDO DRAM (and some 968 cards EDO VRAM) while most 864 cards use FPM DRAM or normal VRAM (like the one above) The EDO shifts the bottleneck up a bit and cards with EDO tend to be clocked higher.

Often VRAM cards have faster RAMDAC but in this case, I think it is a wash as I believe both S3 SDAC and the Bt485 are 135 MHz parts.

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Reply 8 of 15, by Anonymous Coward

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Do you know of any VLB cards that use EDO DRAM? I don't. There might be one or two, but they must be pretty darned rare.
One advantage of going with a 96x card is that more care was likely taken designing the output section. There are good quality 86x cards, but some of them were low spec too.

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V'Ger XT|Upgraded AT|Ultimate 386|Super VL/EISA 486|SMP VL/EISA Pentium

Reply 9 of 15, by TheMobRules

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Anonymous Coward wrote on 2020-08-02, 01:56:

Do you know of any VLB cards that use EDO DRAM? I don't. There might be one or two, but they must be pretty darned rare.
One advantage of going with a 96x card is that more care was likely taken designing the output section. There are good quality 86x cards, but some of them were low spec too.

My Stealth 64 DRAM T VLB came with a mix of FPM and EDO:

CARD.JPG
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Diamond Stealth 64 DRAM T VLB 2MB
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Looks like it was produced around 96-97, which is fairly late for a VLB card, so the EDO support at that point in time makes sense.

Reply 10 of 15, by kixs

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mpe wrote on 2020-08-01, 22:34:
From my experiments with 868 and 968 I remember that the VRAM benefit is really only at high-res/depts in Windows (Graphics Winm […]
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From my experiments with 868 and 968 I remember that the VRAM benefit is really only at high-res/depts in Windows (Graphics Winmark score) and high refresh rates. That means 1024x768 65k up

In fact, at low res, the 868 was a bit faster and even in DOS (by a tiny margin). Presumably due to a much faster stock clock on my card.

But it could be different than on 864/964 series, as most S3 868 (or Trio64) cards use EDO DRAM (and some 968 cards EDO VRAM) while most 864 cards use FPM DRAM or normal VRAM (like the one above) The EDO shifts the bottleneck up a bit and cards with EDO tend to be clocked higher.

Often VRAM cards have faster RAMDAC but in this case, I think it is a wash as I believe both S3 SDAC and the Bt485 are 135 MHz parts.

In my tests VRAM cards are always faster in any Windows resolution & colour depth. And the difference isn't small either. I've tested VLB cards with these chipstes 864, 868, 964, 968 and Trio32, Trio64. I wish I had all versions from one brand...

VwHhf3rl.png

I've only tested at 640x480 in Windows as the differences would be the same at higher ones - albeit lower overall.

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Reply 12 of 15, by The Serpent Rider

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Impressive how bad the Trio32 performs in Windows

More or less bandwidth issue. Just by switching Trio 32 to Trio 64 you can improve performance in high color Windows games (Forsaken, Unreal, C&C: Tiberian Sun, etc) about 50%. That's also true for DOS games in high resolution modes (1024x768 or more) or late games with high color support.

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Reply 14 of 15, by Anonymous Coward

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[/quote]
My Stealth 64 DRAM T VLB came with a mix of FPM and EDO:
CARD.JPG
Looks like it was produced around 96-97, which is fairly late for a VLB card, so the EDO support at that point in time makes sense.
[/quote]

Just because somebody stuck some EDO RAM modules in there doesn't mean the card is actually using it, especially if it's mixed with FPM RAM.
I thought EDO DRAM was first supported in Trio64V+, but I double checked the datasheets and the original Trio64 does indeed support it...but all of the Trio64 VLB cards I've seen so far use FPM DRAM, and I suspect jumpers or registers would need to be set to coax the card into EDO mode. Further examination of the datasheets is required.

"Will the highways on the internets become more few?" -Gee Dubya
V'Ger XT|Upgraded AT|Ultimate 386|Super VL/EISA 486|SMP VL/EISA Pentium

Reply 15 of 15, by mpe

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Yep. My Trio64 VLB cards are all FPM (at least the soldered chips in the first bank). Checked 2x Diamond Stealth 64 DRAM and Spea Mirage P64.

But I have PCI Trio64 (86C764X) and even PCI Trio32 with stock EDO.

EDO operation can be checked/changed by running MCLK.EXE. But is usually programmed to BIOS on cards with EDO from the factory.

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