VOGONS


Reply 20 of 46, by Madao

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Yes, MrKracher said: Virge 325 is latest S3 Chip with VLB support. I can try with ViRGE DX, but i didn't make hope.

Trio64V+ SAUP Decoder: same as STB powergraph 64 VL
But i have place second decoder with two 74FCT521CT and inverter for use with ViRGE.

Win98SE make proposal with "S3" driver, it doesn't work. I have installed driver " Trio64V+ PCI" and ressource-manager show me VLB-typical address range. But d xdiag graphics check is crashed. I'll try tomorrow with Win95 and this Trio64V+ VLB driver.

I think: VirgeVL run without problem with game with native S3D support, but directX and windows driver.. it would be heavy !

Greetings
matt

Reply 21 of 46, by matze79

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Not only heavy, maybe that is the Reason why S3 give up on Virge VLB ?

Or maybe it was only planed and never released / no prototypes at all? who knows.
So you stepping inside "unknown land"

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Reply 22 of 46, by Madao

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Check with Win95 S3 Universial driver on Win98SE: successfull, dxdiag run without crash. It is a important step 😀
Trio64V+ VLB developes to success, i have crack with this card 60 FPS in DOOM (from DOSbench) and it runs good with Win95 driver on Win98SE.

Then i added DDC-Interface and Hardware-patch in second draft ( I have forgotten added pullup on VAFC interface, because, i have planed: NO VAFC, but pullup is important)

@matze, i think: 1996 and make card for "asbach uralt" system (a german alcohol, similar "very very old" ) . -> high risk for bad sales. 3Dblaster VLB is also a flop, you know it already.
A people tell in youtube(about creative 3Dblaster VLB), he has owned a virge VLB.. but i doesn't believe this story.

Greetings
matt

Reply 23 of 46, by vetz

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Madao wrote on 2020-11-08, 13:22:

@matze, i think: 1996 and make card for "a
A people tell in youtube(about creative 3Dblaster VLB), he has owned a virge VLB.. but i doesn't believe this story.

Do you have a link to this video on Youtube?

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Reply 24 of 46, by Madao

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A user comment in this video.
"In 1996 I was gifted a Socket 7 motherboard, I spent the good part of the year saving up for the rest of the components and in the end i wound up with a cyrix 6x86mx pr166, 16mb of ram, a 1.2gb HD, sound blaster vibra 16, and a VLB S3 Virge (yes my socket 7 mobo had VLB) card which was 1mb VRAM upgradable to 2mb which I did OPT to get for an extra 20$ at the local monthly computer fair. I was able to play just about any game I threw at this 1st home made PC for about a solid year or 2! That was until of course more GLIDE based games star"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7tTYwNDWlU

Is it your video?

Why, i didn't believe this story: never has seeing Virge VLB and i didn't found driver, which respond only "oldMMIO" (Notice: newMMIO run only with PCI interface )
Socket7 and VLB...wreid story: (Socket 5 and VLB exits , biostar-mb-1500pc )
next wreid point: 1MB DRAM, official didn't S3 ViRGE support 1 MB memory
greetings
matt

Reply 25 of 46, by cyclone3d

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Yeah.. VLB virge and socket 7.. ummmm, no. Never existed unless this person had some experimental never released motherboard and video board.

PCI is also referred to as a local bus interface.. so my guess is that it was a PCI card.

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Reply 27 of 46, by Tetrium

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Madao wrote on 2020-11-08, 17:29:
A user comment in this video. "In 1996 I was gifted a Socket 7 motherboard, I spent the good part of the year saving up for th […]
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A user comment in this video.
"In 1996 I was gifted a Socket 7 motherboard, I spent the good part of the year saving up for the rest of the components and in the end i wound up with a cyrix 6x86mx pr166, 16mb of ram, a 1.2gb HD, sound blaster vibra 16, and a VLB S3 Virge (yes my socket 7 mobo had VLB) card which was 1mb VRAM upgradable to 2mb which I did OPT to get for an extra 20$ at the local monthly computer fair. I was able to play just about any game I threw at this 1st home made PC for about a solid year or 2! That was until of course more GLIDE based games star"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7tTYwNDWlU

Is it your video?

Why, i didn't believe this story: never has seeing Virge VLB and i didn't found driver, which respond only "oldMMIO" (Notice: newMMIO run only with PCI interface )
Socket7 and VLB...wreid story: (Socket 5 and VLB exits , biostar-mb-1500pc )
next wreid point: 1MB DRAM, official didn't S3 ViRGE support 1 MB memory
greetings
matt

The video in your youtube link is of a 486. EDIT: Ok, I should really not write in a hurry 🤣 ENDEDIT
There is no s7 board with VLB that I know of. Perhaps you arehe is confusing VLB with ASUS's media bus? The media bus looks verykinda similar to VLB at first glance. Ok, maybe not similar but it is more probably then VLB on a socket 7 board.

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Reply 28 of 46, by vetz

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Madao wrote on 2020-11-08, 17:29:
Is it your video? […]
Show full quote

Is it your video?

Why, i didn't believe this story: never has seeing Virge VLB and i didn't found driver, which respond only "oldMMIO" (Notice: newMMIO run only with PCI interface )
Socket7 and VLB...wreid story: (Socket 5 and VLB exits , biostar-mb-1500pc )
next wreid point: 1MB DRAM, official didn't S3 ViRGE support 1 MB memory

Yes, it is my video 😀

Ah, so its a comment made by a user. People's memory can be sketchy after 25 years so most likely it was either a board with Asus media bus as mentioned by Tetrium (S3 Vision868 was available with the PCI-AV868) or Socket 5 VLB with a Vision868/968/Trio64 chipset.

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Reply 29 of 46, by Anonymous Coward

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Even in the 90s most people had no clue about what they actually had. I remember seeing all kinds of weird listings for second hand computers in the classified section of the local newspaper, like DX/2-33s, 30-pin EDO DRAM and "4x86s".

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Reply 30 of 46, by Tetrium

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Anonymous Coward wrote on 2020-11-08, 23:35:

Even in the 90s most people had no clue about what they actually had. I remember seeing all kinds of weird listings for second hand computers in the classified section of the local newspaper, like DX/2-33s, 30-pin EDO DRAM and "4x86s".

Or someone offering you their old computer and it turns out to be just the monitor, a keyboard and an old pair of speakers...
Someone talking about "EDO SIMM Memory" (when they are talking about SDRAM) or calling everything a Pentium, even random 486 parts and Cyrix/AMD parts...
Selling something as a 64MB graphics cards when it was just a TNT2 Model 64 with a black "64" printed on the PCB.

Crazy times I tell ya!!!!11 *shakes fist angrily*

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Reply 31 of 46, by imi

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cyclone3d wrote on 2020-11-08, 19:03:

PCI is also referred to as a local bus interface.. so my guess is that it was a PCI card.

indeed, "PCI local bus" is the standard ^^

anyways I still love this project :3 hope to build one in the future.

Reply 32 of 46, by matze79

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PCI Local Bus is dead 😀

Now all links are serial.

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Reply 33 of 46, by matze79

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cyclone3d wrote on 2020-11-08, 19:03:

Yeah.. VLB virge and socket 7.. ummmm, no. Never existed unless this person had some experimental never released motherboard and video board.

PCI is also referred to as a local bus interface.. so my guess is that it was a PCI card.

Indeed exists, OPTI made Chipsets for Socket 5 Boards with VLB.
Put Pentium MMX Overdrive on it or Powerleap Adapter with K6-2+ 😉
But Bus Performance is not good at all.. Also Memory Speed.

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Reply 34 of 46, by feipoa

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Madao wrote on 2020-11-06, 11:45:

Trio64V+ is damn fast, faster than Trio64 VLB.
Of coruse, i use PCI Card-ROM from a trio64V+ with 45ns EDO RAM.

Are you able to benchmark the Trio64 VLB alongside the Trio64V+ VLB, e.g. with pcpbench, 3dbench, & Doom, to quantify how much faster it is? Is the Trio64V+ running in Trio64 compatibility mode?

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Reply 35 of 46, by Madao

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Hello

No, Trio64V+ VLB run LPB Mode, not Trio64-compatible mode. I have choose this mode, because ViRGE doesn't support Trio64-compatible mode.

My Trio64 VLB (spea Mercury P64 VLB) is fast as 968VL, very very minor difference , most same.
Base is PAT48AV 1.4 and DX2-66

supershape
Trio64 48
Trio64V+ 49,8

DOOM (high)
Trio64 29,10
Trio64V+ 29,59

PCbench (320x200)
Trio64 11,9
Trio64V+ 12

I can replay with AMD 5x86 133 Mhz

Back to topic.

I got life sign with Virge on VLB card.. but dos-game with S3D Support doesn't work (same on Pentium III with Virge PCI )
Someone must write driver for Windows, i can't doing this jobs. I make thought about solvent for problem.
A little positive sign: S3VBE20 dectet correct this card: ViRGE (VLB), despite using of modified Trio64V+ ROM. (Virge-ROM doesn't work on VLB card)

greetings
matt

Reply 36 of 46, by Madao

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Next bench session is finished.

Base: AMD 5x86 WB 133 on board "um4981 AIO", 16MB FPM DRAM

Chip VRAM PCPBench 320 PCPBench 640 DOOM LO DOOM HI FPS Quake 320 Speedsys CPU Superscape 3D Bench

S3 Trio64V+	2 MiB	18,3	6,7	566	1480	50,47	13	    49	81,6
S3 Trio64 2 MiB 18,1 6,6 574 1583 47,18 12,9 49 77,1

Reply 37 of 46, by matze79

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Virge PCI should run S3D Games fine,

if DX is used you need to use S3DRUN.
325 should work out of the Box.

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Reply 38 of 46, by feipoa

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Madao, thank you for the those benchmarks. That DOOM benchmark differences between the Trio64 and 64V+ are fairly impressive. Of course, everyone is still hoping for a ViRGE, even if limited to 2 MB.

You made a comment that your custom 968VL graphics card is as fast as a Trio64 VLB ("very very minor difference"). Normally the S3 Vision 968 is a bit slower in DOS compared to the Trio64. Would you be willing to share the DOS benchmarks for these as well? I am guessing you implemented some enhancement to make the 968VL as fast as the Trio64? While I prefer the Trio64 because it is generally faster in DOS, I ultimately use the S3 Vision 968 in my system because of the 4 MB RAM. A 968 card with 4 MB which is as fast as a Trio64 in DOS certainly interests me.

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Reply 39 of 46, by Madao

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Yes, i use SPEA Mercury P64V ROM, which it has high VRAM Clock (66Mhz ) and SPEA Mirage P64 is low clocked. Despite this fact, Trio64 has higher memory bandwitdh.

Other benchsession with comprasion between 968VL and Trio64V+ VLB : Same config as above, but 3x 50 Mhz
968VL is also stable by 50 MHz with zero waitstate. Trio64V+ run stable with 50Mhz 0 WS, but with few artefacte (propably to long pcb trace,second draft has shorter pcb trace)

Chip   PCPBench 320 640     DOOM LO   HI    FPS   Quake 320 Superscape 
S3 Vision 968, 21,6 8,1 515 1363 54,80 15,3 87,7
S3 Trio64V+ 22,1 8,2 500 1298 57,54 15,5 92,1

Side notice: Vision968 and Trio64V+ use only lower 16bit memory bus by line/VGA-mode.
Side notice²: Vision-Serie hasn't too good PCI interface.