VOGONS


First post, by Putas

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Nowhere do I see a mention of Rage XL improvements upon Rage Pro.
I don't know what happened back then, but I myself wrote in review that Rage XL made no 3d improvements.

By most regards these chips (XL, Mobility P and probably XC) are still the old Rage Pro.
However, going through the cards now I see that transparent textures are finally bilineary filtered.

And this is happening at usually better performance than the Rage Pro. Around the net are often stated 83 MHz clocks for the Rage XL, 10 % above the Rage Pro.
That could explain the shift, but I cannot confirm this as clock tools I tried go haywire with those cards.
But during my overclocking measurements of the Rage Pro it seemed largely limited by memory bandwidth and here is the surprise: even with 32 bit memory the Rage XL/Mobility P can outperform Rage Pro.

ATi specced memory up to 125/150 MHz for 64/32 bit interface.

These frequencies are above of what the Rage Pro tolerates.
More importantly, at best can compensate only half of the bandwidth lost on 32 bit cards. When I have 32 bit Rage XL/Rage Mobility P cards outdoing the Rage Pro (especially with dense geometry) even the 83 MHz core clock is too low- assuming all else remained the same.

We have a die shot proving R3L is a major die shrink, perhaps more changes could happen.

Thoughts?

Reply 1 of 15, by vlask

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

Triangle rate and texture cache size is the same. Only difference is 100 vs 125MHz maximum memory clock and ofc dieshrink to 0.25.
Maybe they finally learned how to optimize drivers. Chip is two years younger compared to rage pro.....
Btw specs are available at my site:
http://vgamuseum.info/images/doc/ati/rage/chs … tions_dec03.pdf
http://vgamuseum.info/images/doc/ati/rage/gcs … tions_sep97.pdf

Even in programmers manual theres mentioned differences in non 3D areas...

The mach64GM (commonly known as the RAGE XL) provides the mach64GT core hardware support for 3D operations. The RAGE XL includes […]
Show full quote

The mach64GM (commonly known as the RAGE XL) provides the mach64GT core
hardware support for 3D operations. The RAGE XL includes all mach64GT features with
the addition of:
• integrated TMDS for flat panels
• integrates motion compensation

http://vgamuseum.info/images/doc/ati/rage/prg … guide_mar00.pdf

Not only mine graphics cards collection at http://www.vgamuseum.info

Reply 2 of 15, by The Serpent Rider

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

AFAIK there's no difference, if generic Rage Pro Win98 driver is used.

Get up, come on get down with the sickness
Open up your hate, and let it flow into me

Reply 3 of 15, by Putas

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Thank you Vlask, the XL doc is new to me.
It mentions the 83/125 core/mem clock operation for one case. The 32 bit mode maximum is 143 MHz there.
Perhaps if my 32 bit cards run at 143, the core clock at same ratio should be 95 MHz which would fit my measurements rather well.

From programmers perspective nothing has to change even if the hardware does things differently.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2020-11-17, 11:27:

AFAIK there's no difference, if generic Rage Pro Win98 driver is used.

That driver fails for me.

Reply 4 of 15, by vlask

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

Have also register reference guides....but for xl, not for pro, so hard to compare....
There is also this:

Select memory type: 000 = Disable memory access 001 = Reserved for basic DRAM 010 = Reserved for EDO 011 = Reserved for hyper pa […]
Show full quote

Select memory type:
000 = Disable memory access
001 = Reserved for basic DRAM
010 = Reserved for EDO
011 = Reserved for hyper page DRAM or EDO
100 = SDRAM (1:1)
101 = SGRAM (1:1) (default)
110 = SDRAM (2:1) (32-bit memory interface)
111 = Reserved

So maybe 32bit config have doubled clocks?
http://vgamuseum.info/images/doc/ati/rage/rrg … guide_dec99.pdf
http://vgamuseum.info/images/doc/ati/rage/rrg … guide_feb99.pdf

About clocks. I think you should contact author of HWinfo, he have even here thread about adding support for old tech. If you send him report from HWinfo and bios dump of card, he might add clocks detection.
At last he did it for 3Drage II recently for me. Been giving him reports ....And this chip seems to be documented very good. So theres a big chance for succes.

Not only mine graphics cards collection at http://www.vgamuseum.info

Reply 5 of 15, by Anonymous Coward

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

RageXL is known as Mach64GM? That's news to me.
That blurb mentions RageXL has a Mach64GT core for 3D operations. Isn't the Mach64GT an entire generation behind the Rage Pro?

"Will the highways on the internets become more few?" -Gee Dubya
V'Ger XT|Upgraded AT|Ultimate 386|Super VL/EISA 486|SMP VL/EISA Pentium

Reply 6 of 15, by Putas

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
vlask wrote on 2020-11-17, 12:55:

So maybe 32bit config have doubled clocks?

That 2:1 string shows up in the driver panel of my 32 bit Rage XL. Not sure what it means, if the core clock is half of mem the strong performance needs even more extraordinary explanation.

Anonymous Coward wrote on 2020-11-17, 13:08:

Isn't the Mach64GT an entire generation behind the Rage Pro?

Everything from 3D Rage to 3D Rage Pro. That makes the designation almost meaningless.

Reply 7 of 15, by douglar

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

As far as I know, it's a die shrink of the 3rd gen rage ( Rage Pro, Rage Pro Turbo, Rage LT Pro )
It does 1 texel per clock like the other 3rd gen rage, which is an improvement over the early Rage chips ( Rage/Mach64-GT, Rage II, 3D Rage II+DVD, Rage IIc ) that took 2 cycles per texel.

Here are the ATI part numbers that I've seen:
Rage XL AGP 109-66700-00 (agp, 4 ram chips 64bit bus, funky "L" board)
Rage XL AGP 109-66900-00 (agp, 1 ram chip; funky "L" board; reduced width memory bus?)
Rage XL PCI 109-72300-10 (pci, 1 ram chip, reduced width memory bus?)
Looks like there were OEMs too.

Reply 8 of 15, by Putas

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Thank you, the XL cards now realistically fit my picture.
64 bit XL being ~20 % faster than Rage Pro, 32 bit being ~20 % slower.

What bothers me now is this card.
It performs more like Rage XL 64 bit while having 32 bit memory. Vlask, are you sure it is Mobility-P? I don't have other Mobility card and heatsink on this one is glued firmly so I did not take a peek.
By now I expect Mobility-M inside.

Reply 9 of 15, by douglar

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
Putas wrote on 2020-11-18, 07:53:

What bothers me now is this card.

The purple ETC board seems to suggest that it is mobility, but a rom dump would probably make it pretty clear.

http://www.vgamuseum.info/images/vlask/ati/ragem-petcf.jpg

It wasn't uncommon for a board design to show up in products using different Rage chips, but only when they were pin compatible.

I'd be surprised if the Rage Mobility parts were pin compatible with the desktop parts because of the digital display output.

Reply 10 of 15, by vlask

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
douglar wrote on 2020-11-18, 15:27:
The purple ETC board seems to suggest that it is mobility, but a rom dump would probably make it pretty clear. […]
Show full quote
Putas wrote on 2020-11-18, 07:53:

What bothers me now is this card.

The purple ETC board seems to suggest that it is mobility, but a rom dump would probably make it pretty clear.

http://www.vgamuseum.info/images/vlask/ati/ragem-petcf.jpg

It wasn't uncommon for a board design to show up in products using different Rage chips, but only when they were pin compatible.

I'd be surprised if the Rage Mobility parts were pin compatible with the desktop parts because of the digital display output.

Rom dump is available on site. Both cards have ma64LM string in Bios and i guess they are detected same way in windows too (really wont remember at card tested few years back and don't have report from aida, since it has no support).
http://vgamuseum.info/index.php/cards/item/10 … rage-mobility-p

Not only mine graphics cards collection at http://www.vgamuseum.info

Reply 11 of 15, by rmay635703

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
Anonymous Coward wrote on 2020-11-17, 13:08:

RageXL is known as Mach64GM? That's news to me.

Sounds to me like the entire rage line must have Windows 3.1 drivers then (or at least ones requiring a very small mod to work)

Reply 12 of 15, by Anonymous Coward

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
Putas wrote on 2020-11-17, 13:36:

Everything from 3D Rage to 3D Rage Pro. That makes the designation almost meaningless.

I've never heard of Rage Pro referred to as a "Mach64 GT". What is the earliest ATi literature that refers to it as such?

The original Rage was the Mach64 GT. The Rage II was the Mach64 GT'B'. Maybe Rage Pro is the GTC?

*edit*

I saw some linux literature referring to the Rage Pro as the Mach64 GP and the Rage IIC as the Mach64 GT IIC. Anyone know if those are official ATi designations?

"Will the highways on the internets become more few?" -Gee Dubya
V'Ger XT|Upgraded AT|Ultimate 386|Super VL/EISA 486|SMP VL/EISA Pentium

Reply 13 of 15, by BigDaddyM

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

I believe that the differences may also apply to others "rage pro family" chips. I have only Rage Pro Turbo and Rage LT Pro but both chips in three versions: 8MB/SG/AGP, 8MB/SD/AGP, 8MB/SD/PCI. I can only compare the PCI models directly because I haven't tested all AGP cards yet. PCI cards have lower fillrate 28/36 than AGP models 36/48 so chip clocks must be different between AGP and PCI cards. Anoher funny thing, I think that "LT Pro PCI" has faster memory than "Pro Turbo PCI" because values for 2MB and 4MB textures rendering are stuck at respectively 75 FPS and 60 FPS, framerate drops below in higher resolution.

For tests I've used 3D Mark 99, I know it's not suitable, but it's great for comparing similar chips.

Reply 14 of 15, by Putas

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Never have I seen Rage Pro with a different core clock. Does that "Pro Turbo PCI" have EDO memory by any chance?

Anonymous Coward wrote on 2020-11-20, 03:46:

I've never heard of Rage Pro referred to as a "Mach64 GT". What is the earliest ATi literature that refers to it as such?

No idea what would be the earliest, but the programmers guide linked above does that.

Reply 15 of 15, by BigDaddyM

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
Putas wrote on 2020-11-20, 15:11:

Never have I seen Rage Pro with a different core clock. Does that "Pro Turbo PCI" have EDO memory by any chance?

No, cards have SD or SG ram but Rage Pro Turbo PCI is slower than LT Rage Pro PCI, fillrate is this same but textures rendering is faster on LT Pro. AGP cards of Rage Pro Turbo and LT Pro have better fillrate than PCI cards.