VOGONS


First post, by botond87

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Hi Everyone!

I've learned a lot from this forum, reading through guides and forum posts helped me a lot in assembling and getting my Win98 gaming rig up and running - but now I have a problem I cannot solve on my own, hopefully you guys can help me out 😀

So, I have the aforementioned Win98 gaming rig with a Voodoo2 SLI setup, until now I used a TNT2 in the AGP slot. I figured I'll take the rig a step further, and add a Geforce 4 Ti 4200 into the mix. Once the card arrived, I stipped it of its massive heatsinks, cleaned it, and added fresh Arctic MX-2 to the graphics chip and RAM modules. The card is a Leadtek AE250LE with 64MB of RAM, and for a Geforce 4 Ti, it runs painfully slow, comparing benchmarks on the web, mostly on a Geforce 2 level.

I've tried so far with UT2003 and NFS: Underground 1, and when there is a lot of crap happening on-screen, the performance takes a massive hit, going as low as 5-10 FPS. When there is not much happening, it can go up to 40-60 FPS. As a concrete example, the built-in UT2003 benchmark maxed out at 1024x768 has a flyby score of 89 FPS, and a botmach score of 29 FPS. When looking up GF4 card benchmarks on the web, the performance should be double. The other interesting thing is, that this seems to be pretty much resolution independent. The dips happen even at 640x480, hell, there is not a lot of difference in NFS: U between 640x480 and 1280x1024.

The only way the performance is better, if I turn all of the settings to the lowest possible, but then both games look like crap. I've tried lowering step by step a couple of settings, but that didn't make any difference.

To me, it seems like some sort of bottleneck, best guess would be CPU, but that's a 1.7 GHz Pentium 4, so theoretically that shouldn't be much of a problem.

Here's what I've tried until now, that made absolutely no difference:

- Different driver versions from 30.82, all the way up to 61.76 (including 56.64 and 44.03)
- Checked the clock speeds with Coolbits enabled, they are on stock at 250 / 513 MHz
- Tried overclocking to 290 / 525 (made nothing faster)
- Removed the Voodoo2 cards to only have the Geforce 4
- Tested different AGP aperture sizes from 16 MB to 256 MB
- Changed AGP modes down from 4x to 2x, then back
- Toggled AGP Fast write, AGP master 1 WS write & read back and forth
- Tried to set the AGP Driving Value to manual, and upped from DA to EA, EF, even FF

And at this point I'm out of ideas. This are my specs:

- SL-85DRV (VIA P4X266 PR22-S) motherboard
- Pentium 4 1.7 GHz CPU
- 512 MB of DDR400 RAM
- 32 GB "hard disk" SD card with IDE adapter
- Leadtek AE250LE Fegorce 4 TI 4200 64MB
- Corsair VS350 PSU

My last guess is that maybe the no-name VIA motherboard has some funky AGP solution that cannot handle the Geforce 4, or that the card itself is somehow bricked, but I don't really know how if it actually works.

Is there something I'm missing here?

Thank you in advance 😀

Reply 1 of 17, by Garrett W

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That does sound like a CPU bottleneck. NFS Underground is very CPU demanding and that P4 1.7 is pretty miserable. Try benchmarking with some more popular games (perhaps Doom 3 for which there's a megathread in this forum), this could help you compare with similar CPUs and see how far off you are. Using older drivers is suggested.

Reply 2 of 17, by Spitz

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I remember playing NFSU on my P4 2.8Ghz 1,5 GB RAM GF 5900XT - believe me or not it felt like the game wanted SERIOUS more.... So Your 1.7 is definitely not enough...

"Recommended Requirements
OS: Win Xp 32
Processor: Intel Pentium 4 2.0GHz / AMD Athlon XP 1500+
Graphics: AMD Radeon X1050 or NVIDIA GeForce 8400 GS
System Memory: 256 MB RAM
Storage: 2 GB Hard drive space
DirectX 9 Compatible Graphics Card

FPS Tools

PC Performance Guides
Check Today's Prices
PC System Analysis For Need for Speed: Underground Requirements
Need for Speed: Underground will require Radeon X1050 graphics card with a Pentium 4 2.0GHz or Athlon XP 1500+ processor to reach the recommended specs, achieving high graphics setting on 1080p. System memory required for Need for Speed: Underground is 256 MB performance memory. Don't try and play Need for Speed: Underground without 128 MB, which helps get the 30FPS Your graphics card will need to be capable of running DirectX 9. Recommended needs around a 13 year old PC to run"

Well... I miss 80/90s ... End of story

Reply 3 of 17, by botond87

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Thanks for the replies so far. I didn't expect the P4 to be that much of a limiting factor, I remember back in the day I've played NFSU with an Athlon XP 2200+ and a Geforce 3 Ti 200 at 800x600 almost maxed out (I think car reflection update was dialed down and crowds disabled), and I don't remember it having moments below 20 FPS...or maybe my memories have faded 😀 But I still feel that UT2003 is way slower, than it should be. Are similarly clocked Athlon XPs really that much faster?

Anyways, I'll check with other games, to see what the performance is like.

Reply 4 of 17, by The Sandman

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Are the chipset drivers installed? VIA needs the AGP to CPU Controller driver installed correctly...otherwise you will face a huge performance hit.
You should see a VIA CPU to AGP Controller in the device manager. If it's already there check if the drivers are standard or those from VIA.

Grab the 4.35 version from Phils Lab and run the installer.
https://www.philscomputerlab.com/via-chipset-drivers.html
If they don't show up after a reboot you have to pick them from the AGPMe folder inside the extracted installer setup files. "VIAGART.INF"

btw. your Board is a Soltek SL-85DRV

NFS Underground should run on a P4 1.7 and GF4. Hell, the game even runs on the original Xbox with a modified Celeron 733 and GF3.5 😉

Reply 5 of 17, by Standard Def Steve

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I believe the 1.7 only came in Willamette form, unlike the 1.6 and 1.8GHz P4s, which were also available in Northwood "A" versions with twice the cache. The Willamette P4s were never great performers, especially when used with a slower memory controller.

The good news, though, is that 2.4A GHz P4s are cheap and plentiful, and should give you a fairly substantial performance boost. Just make sure you get one that's designed for a 400MHz FSB, not one of the more common 533MHz FSB variants. A GeForce 4 Ti coupled with a Northwood P4 was a 2002 dream machine for many people! 😀

94 MHz NEC VR4300 | SGI Reality CoPro | 8MB RDRAM | Each game gets its own SSD - nooice!

Reply 6 of 17, by texterted

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Underground 1 works far better on my XP rig than my 98se one. I think it's far better suited to xp.

Cheers

Ted

98se/W2K :- Asus A8v Dlx. A-64 3500+, 512 mb ddr, Radeon 9800 Pro, SB Live.
XP Pro:- Asus P5 Q SE Plus, C2D E8400, 4 Gig DDR2, Radeon HD4870, SB Audigy 2ZS.

Reply 7 of 17, by botond87

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The Sandman wrote on 2020-12-16, 15:05:
Are the chipset drivers installed? VIA needs the AGP to CPU Controller driver installed correctly...otherwise you will face a hu […]
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Are the chipset drivers installed? VIA needs the AGP to CPU Controller driver installed correctly...otherwise you will face a huge performance hit.
You should see a VIA CPU to AGP Controller in the device manager. If it's already there check if the drivers are standard or those from VIA.

Grab the 4.35 version from Phils Lab and run the installer.
https://www.philscomputerlab.com/via-chipset-drivers.html
If they don't show up after a reboot you have to pick them from the AGPMe folder inside the extracted installer setup files. "VIAGART.INF"

btw. your Board is a Soltek SL-85DRV

NFS Underground should run on a P4 1.7 and GF4. Hell, the game even runs on the original Xbox with a modified Celeron 733 and GF3.5 😉

Thank you for the tip, yes I've already had version 4.43 installed. I've tried with 4.35, sadly with same results.

Reply 8 of 17, by botond87

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I'll try to find a higher clocked P4 down the road, it's just a bummer that the performance is so bad.

I also wanted to double-check with XP, but I couldn't get it to work with my current knowledge, and lack of an IDE CD/DVD drive. The damn thing won't boot from an USB stick, I only managed to install Win98 by making the SD card bootable with FreeDOS, and copying the installer onto the SD card too. And naturally the WinXP setup won't start from FreeDOS. Is there any way to install XP from the SD card that will be used as the hard drive?

Reply 9 of 17, by The Sandman

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no problem. Too bad, though.

What's your current 3DMark 2001 Score?
Here are some reference lists with mainly old hardware:
https://www.pc-erfahrung.de/tuningperformance … rk-2001-se.html
https://www.voodooalert.de/board/forum/index. … le-plattformen/

Reply 10 of 17, by botond87

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The Sandman wrote on 2020-12-16, 19:57:
no problem. Too bad, though. […]
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no problem. Too bad, though.

What's your current 3DMark 2001 Score?
Here are some reference lists with mainly old hardware:
https://www.pc-erfahrung.de/tuningperformance … rk-2001-se.html
https://www.voodooalert.de/board/forum/index. … le-plattformen/

I've ran the benchmark at 1280x1024 (I'm guessing that's the resolution in the first link?), got 5910 3D marks. Seems to be worse than a PIII 😀

Reply 13 of 17, by The Sandman

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I would call it accetable then. Drivers seem to be fine. I guess textered is right and W98 isn't the first choice OS for NFS U. Well, every game after 2002 should run better under 2k/xp. You could still try your luck with raw MHz Power 😀

Reply 15 of 17, by lost77

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botond87 wrote on 2020-12-16, 19:54:

Is there any way to install XP from the SD card that will be used as the hard drive?

Can't you put the XP install files on the SD card and install it using Windows 98's DOS mode?

Reply 16 of 17, by botond87

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Just thought I'd give an update: I ordered a 2.6 Ghz P4 Northwood with 400 FSB (pretty much maxing out the motherboards officially supported CPU model), which indeed gave me a nice performance bump - resulting a 3DMark 2001 score of 9477 points, and making NFS:U playable, although still with some noticeable dips.

Then I started messing around with the DRAM settings, which I previously never really touched. I've set the timings as low as possible, enabled 4 Bank interleave, upped the Burst length to 8. This bumped the 3DMark 2001 score up to 10601, but made a more noticable impact on gaming: the large framerate dips are now mostly gone. Sure it's not 60 FPS flat, but it made a huge improvement, and the framerate is more even now. Maybe it was a noob move not to adjust anything manually for the RAM (maybe you guys also figured I've already set everything up RAM-wise), but I've certainly learned a lot out of fiddling around with these settings. And of course, as you guys also pointed out, it was a massive CPU bottleneck 😀