bloodem wrote on 2020-12-30, 14:34:

GigAHerZ wrote on 2020-12-30, 10:25:

EDIT: Found nvidia settings for opengl, where vsync was "On by default". So now. GLQuake 1280x1024: 37,5fps Quake 2 1280x960: 30 […]
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EDIT: Found nvidia settings for opengl, where vsync was "On by default".
So now.
GLQuake 1280x1024: 37,5fps
Quake 2 1280x960: 30,6

GLQuake improved somewhat, Quake 2 is the same, so this is probably it - GLQuake was vsync'ing before...

In Quake 2, it seems like you might be hitting some other bottleneck at that very high resolution (in your previous benchmark, you were getting 33 FPS at 640 x 480). When checking CPU bottlenecks, it's better to test a lower resolution too, in order to see if you get any improvement after disabling VSYNC.

Like i already showed earlier, there was no big difference between 640x480 and 1280x960. Did a run now with resolution 320x240 and got pretty much the same result again: 35.0 fps. At resultion 1280x960 i did a rerun: 33,9fps.
It's well bottlenecked by CPU. Doesn't matter, if OpenGL adds more or less overhead than Glide, the fact is, it is *not* bottlenecked by the GPU.

I wasn't thinking of a GPU bottleneck (the GeForce should clearly have more punch), but it could have been another bottleneck related to the PCI bus on your particular board/setup.
Anyway, your results are pretty much in line with what I saw on Pentium MMX with a Riva TNT and Riva TNT2 M64. I was merely curious if the Hardware "T" made a difference and it seems like it doesn't.

chinny22 wrote on 2020-12-30, 10:11:

Which would you say are your most demanding games? Quake for example wont benefit much upgrading from the onboard chip but GL Qu […]
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Which would you say are your most demanding games?
Quake for example wont benefit much upgrading from the onboard chip but GL Quake will

Problem is a 200MMX becomes a bottleneck rather quickly for 3d titles no matter what video card you have.
Its not to say performance gains aren't to be had, just that they are very limited and you say your on a budget.

I want to play Quake and other full 3D games from 96-97 at 800x600 at a decent frame rate.
Currently 800x600 gives me around 11 fps, which is not playable IMO.
Quake 2 at good a frame rate would be nice, if possible.
I don't plan on running games from late 1998 and beyond, I know the computers limitations.
Unless anyone can recommend a cpu upgrade that would work with the current motherboard, then I'm sticking with that goal.

appiah4 wrote on 2020-12-30, 08:12:

It really depends on what you want to do with it. Good DOS experience, vs good Windows experience vs good 3D Acceleration are usually pick two out of three.

Dos compatibility isn't really my goal. Windows 9x with good 3D is the goal.
If I wanted accurate DOS, I'd go with a lower clocked Pentium. If I wanted just playable DOS I'd probably do DOSBox.

Weasel_Pleasel wrote on 2020-12-30, 23:41:

I want to play Quake and other full 3D games from 96-97 at 800x600 at a decent frame rate. Currently 800x600 gives me around 11 […]
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I want to play Quake and other full 3D games from 96-97 at 800x600 at a decent frame rate.
Currently 800x600 gives me around 11 fps, which is not playable IMO.
Quake 2 at good a frame rate would be nice, if possible.
I don't plan on running games from late 1998 and beyond, I know the computers limitations.
Unless anyone can recommend a cpu upgrade that would work with the current motherboard, then I'm sticking with that goal.

Going off this to give ballpark figures looks like early nvidia card may indeed give you that extra little bit of performance that you need.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/200/4

I doubt a MMX can even take full advantage of say a TNT2 M64 but price and availability will probably cause you to get a faster card anyway.

Weasel_Pleasel wrote on 2020-12-30, 23:53:

appiah4 wrote on 2020-12-30, 08:12:

It really depends on what you want to do with it. Good DOS experience, vs good Windows experience vs good 3D Acceleration are usually pick two out of three.

Dos compatibility isn't really my goal. Windows 9x with good 3D is the goal.
If I wanted accurate DOS, I'd go with a lower clocked Pentium. If I wanted just playable DOS I'd probably do DOSBox.

Then just go ahead and find a PCI Matrox G450 or Radeon 7000 if you want cheap, or a PCI GeForce 2 MX/Radeon 7500 if you have cash to spare..

Then just go ahead and find a PCI Matrox G450 or Radeon 7000 if you want cheap,

Already discussed in thread about optimal video card for Pentium Pro. Both suck as an option for slow CPUs.

The ideal Graphics cards for a Pentium mmx arent cheap nowadays. Back then I had a Mystique 220 4mb and it was fairly bad at 3D. Then I boght a TNT 16mb PCI of course,and the CPU (200MMX) wasn't enoght. So ideal as is already known, voodoo1 because of compatibility,but if I had the money to buy an nVidia TNT PCI, I think is bettter than the voodoo1

The PCI Riva TNT or TNT2 M64 are also solid choices, however the TOP cards for Pentium MMX are and always will be Voodoo. The best choice is probably Voodoo 2 (as a good compromise between speed and compatibility). For ultimate compatibility, of course, you must go with a Voodoo 1 (but, in most games, this card is not really usable at resolutions higher than 512x384).
However, as I said, I for one like to pair the MMX with a PCI Voodoo Banshee - a good mix of image quality/compatibility/decent speed/lower price (if you are willing to wait and hunt one down).

Would a CPU upgrade be better? I know a 233MMX would work with the current motherboard, but that doesn't seem like a worthy upgrade.
Any Ideas on other CPUs that would work with the AA 661656-203 motherboard?

Intel ATX 430VX motherboard? They unofficially can work with AMD K6-2 CXT at 400 Mhz via 2x multiplier, converted internally to 6x. Maybe also with K6-III and working L2 cache. Although you would want to add some additional cooling to mosfet that provides CPU voltage. AMD K6-2 also will require 3D card with good "3DNow!" support, like 3dfx or Nvidia.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2021-01-04, 05:18:

Intel ATX 430VX motherboard? They unofficially can work with AMD K6-2 CXT at 400 Mhz via 2x multiplier, converted internally to 6x. Maybe also with K6-III and working L2 cache. Although you would want to add some additional cooling to mosfet that provides CPU voltage. AMD K6-2 also will require 3D card with good "3DNow!" support, like 3dfx or Nvidia.

Would I need to find a 2.4v k6-2 or would a 2.2v be fine? I can't manually adjust the voltage on the motherboard or the bios.

Yes, 2.2v is also fine.

A voodoo 1 or voodoo 2 is easily the best match for such a system.

If you are more interested in early 3d games then I would recommend just getting a faster platform. A pentium MMX is good for DOS because it has so many degrees of speed stepping. For early 3d, it will do ok up through maybe 1997, but it will struggle hard with anything newer regardless of what GPU you pair it with.

I have one k6-2 400 running at 2.5v o a DFI G586ipv and it even recognice the name of the cpu, tried it o a pcchips a101 and it works but the bios does not show the correct cpu name. It is a 430vx chipset. But in that systen I have the same problem as the op, the graphics card. Currently it has a Mystique 220. I have bought a Ragexl PCI but it does not work in that system.

mothergoose729 wrote on 2021-01-04, 08:29:

A voodoo 1 or voodoo 2 is easily the best match for such a system.

If you are more interested in early 3d games then I would recommend just getting a faster platform. A pentium MMX is good for DOS because it has so many degrees of speed stepping. For early 3d, it will do ok up through maybe 1997, but it will struggle hard with anything newer regardless of what GPU you pair it with.

Looks like I'm stuck with one of those options. Voodoo prices make me uneasy though. I don't want to put up that much money, at least not right now.
On top of that I could easily get a new motherboard, faster CPU, and a decent video card for around the same price some of these things are going.
I guess this project will need a bit more planning and research until I fork over anything.

Weasel_Pleasel wrote on 2021-01-06, 04:52:

Looks like I'm stuck with one of those options. Voodoo prices make me uneasy though. I don't want to put up that much money, at […]
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mothergoose729 wrote on 2021-01-04, 08:29:

A voodoo 1 or voodoo 2 is easily the best match for such a system.

If you are more interested in early 3d games then I would recommend just getting a faster platform. A pentium MMX is good for DOS because it has so many degrees of speed stepping. For early 3d, it will do ok up through maybe 1997, but it will struggle hard with anything newer regardless of what GPU you pair it with.

Looks like I'm stuck with one of those options. Voodoo prices make me uneasy though. I don't want to put up that much money, at least not right now.
On top of that I could easily get a new motherboard, faster CPU, and a decent video card for around the same price some of these things are going.
I guess this project will need a bit more planning and research until I fork over anything.

It really depends on what you are trying to play. The early windows transition period is a hot mess. A voodoo card is still recommended because early D3D titles can be really spotty and glitchy compared to glide. IMO the voodoo 3 is the ideal card for windows 98. If you are more interested in games that came a bit later like half life or unreal engine games things get a lot easier.

If you want to do mostly windows with some DOS, a socket 370 machine with VIA chipset is a good choice. Most of them have one or two ISA slots. If you don't care about DOS at all, I would get a socket 478 board with an intel 845 or 865 chipset. It is way overkill for that period, but the intel chipsets are completely rock solid and the platform is very affordable and very compatible with modern stuff like cases and power supplies.

Mirroring some above comments, I say Get the card to suit the games you want to play.

A Voodoo card is no use if you don't intend to play Glide games, indeed it may even be counter-productive because the Voodoo1 has terrible general image quality (for everyday usage), and the Voodoo2 while much improved in that regard is still a somewhat noisy output compared to many basic 2D cards. And...

In summary the machine isn't fast enough for satisfying 3D, regardless of video card. Any basic 4MB S3 card or similar will get such a machine up to it's full 2D capabilities, which will cover the vast majority of what a 233MMX is suitable for.

About 15 months ago I decided I wanted a Voodoo 1
Keeping and eye on prices over the year the average 4MB Voodoo 1 will sell for around £30-£45
Not cheap but far better then the BIN prices. In teh end I won a bid for a pair of Diamond Multimedia V1's so a desirable brand for £78 or £39 each which is about the going rate.

I'd imagine average USA prices are in the same ballpark as UK? So not exactly cheap but shouldn't bankrupt you if you can wait.

With all that said I'd also say your money is probably better spent on a faster system, Your expectations are reasonable as you admit Quake 2 is pushing it by why limit yourself? If you got the space I'd keep this as a kick ass dos machine and say a P3 as a Win9x PC safe in the knowledge you have horsepower to spare.

chinny22 wrote on 2021-01-06, 10:10:

About 15 months ago I decided I wanted a Voodoo 1 Keeping and eye on prices over the year the average 4MB Voodoo 1 will sell for […]
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About 15 months ago I decided I wanted a Voodoo 1
Keeping and eye on prices over the year the average 4MB Voodoo 1 will sell for around £30-£45
Not cheap but far better then the BIN prices. In teh end I won a bid for a pair of Diamond Multimedia V1's so a desirable brand for £78 or £39 each which is about the going rate.

I'd imagine average USA prices are in the same ballpark as UK? So not exactly cheap but shouldn't bankrupt you if you can wait.

With all that said I'd also say your money is probably better spent on a faster system, Your expectations are reasonable as you admit Quake 2 is pushing it by why limit yourself? If you got the space I'd keep this as a kick ass dos machine and say a P3 as a Win9x PC safe in the knowledge you have horsepower to spare.

Voodoo prices are over $100 USD. If you wait and are quick to snap one up, you can get one for around $60-$80, but you have to be lucky.
As for keeping a second computer, I'm pretty space limited, but defiantly want one in the future. Maybe leaving this one Dos only is the way to go...