VOGONS


GPU Suggestions?

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Reply 20 of 45, by dormcat

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Alistar1776 wrote on 2022-05-02, 22:36:

I was looking into a Radeon 9800, but im only seeing Windows XP drivers, and no Win98SE drivers. This is looking on Gigabyte's website.

Gigabyte's Radeon 9x00 series cards share the same driver 7.99.98 with Catalyst Control Panel 6.14.10.5090 under Windows 9x.

GV-R98X256D (Radeon 9800 XT R360)
https://www.gigabyte.com/Graphics-Card/GV-R98 … pport-dl-driver

GV-R98P256D (Radeon 9800 Pro R350)
https://www.gigabyte.com/Graphics-Card/GV-R98 … pport-dl-driver

Reply 21 of 45, by Alistar1776

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dormcat wrote on 2022-05-02, 23:06:
Gigabyte's Radeon 9x00 series cards share the same driver 7.99.98 with Catalyst Control Panel 6.14.10.5090 under Windows 9x. […]
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Alistar1776 wrote on 2022-05-02, 22:36:

I was looking into a Radeon 9800, but im only seeing Windows XP drivers, and no Win98SE drivers. This is looking on Gigabyte's website.

Gigabyte's Radeon 9x00 series cards share the same driver 7.99.98 with Catalyst Control Panel 6.14.10.5090 under Windows 9x.

GV-R98X256D (Radeon 9800 XT R360)
https://www.gigabyte.com/Graphics-Card/GV-R98 … pport-dl-driver

GV-R98P256D (Radeon 9800 Pro R350)
https://www.gigabyte.com/Graphics-Card/GV-R98 … pport-dl-driver

Oh aweome. So, im looking through Ebay, and i see the 9800 Pro, 9800 XT, and a 9800 SE. The SE and XT variants have the same amound of v-ram at 256mb, so whats the difference? Im also seeing more SE and Pro models than XTs

Reply 22 of 45, by dormcat

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Alistar1776 wrote on 2022-05-02, 23:48:

Oh aweome. So, im looking through Ebay, and i see the 9800 Pro, 9800 XT, and a 9800 SE. The SE and XT variants have the same amound of v-ram at 256mb, so whats the difference? Im also seeing more SE and Pro models than XTs

Check out
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_9000_ser … eon_R300_series
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/?genera … sort=generation

ATI Radeon cards of that era with the same model numbers but different suffixes had this general rule, from low to high:

SE ("Special Edition," but in fact those were rather lower end "Simplified Edition")
(number only, no suffix)
Pro (for enthusiasts)
XT ("eXTreme edition," flagship)

Reply 23 of 45, by agent_x007

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Use PCI GPU for Win98 and keep HD 4650 for 2k/XP (swapping video inputs on monitor will be necessary).
FX 5500 or Radeon 9250 should be fine in older non-shader games. Make sure to get 128-bit bus version of FX 5500, some like to sell 5200 64-bit as 5500 model.

Your board probably needs BIOS update (or at least ucode update), for full Barton support.
PS. Only by rising FSB to 200MHz (400MHz effective), you will see 2,2GHz clock. But this shouldn't be necessary on KT880 (with proper 400MHz FSB support).

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Reply 24 of 45, by Tetrium

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Alistar1776 wrote on 2022-05-02, 10:59:

So, my Win98SE machine needs graphics drivers, but im not fully sure i want to keep the ATI Radeon HD 4650 AGP card in it. Im curious whats a good gaming card that would pair up well with a 1.1ghz Athlon XP 3200+? Ive thought about possibly a Voodoo 3 card, then using the HD4650AGP in a Win2000 machine (cause i have games that will run on win2000, but not 98SE) Looking forward to some of your suggestions, and thanks in advance!

If you really want to literally run that Barton at half its rated speed, I'd say pick a graphics card similar to what one would pick for a Tualatin or Thunderbird build.
I suppose the running it at half speed is some kind of error and in such a case I think the HD 4650 would suit the Barton 3200+ well enough.

Btw, does the HD 4650 even have any official drivers for Windows 2000?

I wouldn't want to run a 3200+ with a Voodoo 3, even if your board would support it.

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
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Reply 25 of 45, by Alistar1776

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Tetrium wrote on 2022-05-05, 17:41:
If you really want to literally run that Barton at half its rated speed, I'd say pick a graphics card similar to what one would […]
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Alistar1776 wrote on 2022-05-02, 10:59:

So, my Win98SE machine needs graphics drivers, but im not fully sure i want to keep the ATI Radeon HD 4650 AGP card in it. Im curious whats a good gaming card that would pair up well with a 1.1ghz Athlon XP 3200+? Ive thought about possibly a Voodoo 3 card, then using the HD4650AGP in a Win2000 machine (cause i have games that will run on win2000, but not 98SE) Looking forward to some of your suggestions, and thanks in advance!

If you really want to literally run that Barton at half its rated speed, I'd say pick a graphics card similar to what one would pick for a Tualatin or Thunderbird build.
I suppose the running it at half speed is some kind of error and in such a case I think the HD 4650 would suit the Barton 3200+ well enough.

Btw, does the HD 4650 even have any official drivers for Windows 2000?

I wouldn't want to run a 3200+ with a Voodoo 3, even if your board would support it.

I assume "Barton" is the code name for the architecture of the cpu? kinda like intel's Sky Lake, Coffee Lake, etc? anyway, running it at half speed wasnt intentional... If its supposed to run at 2.2ghz, hell yea I want the rest of its speed 🤣. The FSB defaults to 200, and last I messed with it, it wouldnt go much past 348 i think. and the system wont POST at all past 1.6ghz. Im curious if there is some kind of jumper config for it on the mobo, kind of like older Socket 7 systems? I have my doubts, but i thought id ask.

Edit: Forgot some other points, my bad.

I havent looked into the availability of Win2K drivers for the HD4650, so im not sure really.

Reply 26 of 45, by Tetrium

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Alistar1776 wrote on 2022-05-05, 18:10:
Tetrium wrote on 2022-05-05, 17:41:
If you really want to literally run that Barton at half its rated speed, I'd say pick a graphics card similar to what one would […]
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Alistar1776 wrote on 2022-05-02, 10:59:

So, my Win98SE machine needs graphics drivers, but im not fully sure i want to keep the ATI Radeon HD 4650 AGP card in it. Im curious whats a good gaming card that would pair up well with a 1.1ghz Athlon XP 3200+? Ive thought about possibly a Voodoo 3 card, then using the HD4650AGP in a Win2000 machine (cause i have games that will run on win2000, but not 98SE) Looking forward to some of your suggestions, and thanks in advance!

If you really want to literally run that Barton at half its rated speed, I'd say pick a graphics card similar to what one would pick for a Tualatin or Thunderbird build.
I suppose the running it at half speed is some kind of error and in such a case I think the HD 4650 would suit the Barton 3200+ well enough.

Btw, does the HD 4650 even have any official drivers for Windows 2000?

I wouldn't want to run a 3200+ with a Voodoo 3, even if your board would support it.

I assume "Barton" is the code name for the architecture of the cpu? kinda like intel's Sky Lake, Coffee Lake, etc?

Correct. We often use these names instead of CPU names for reasons like for instance to adds more clarity and decrease confusion as the official CPU names are often confusing or even senseless which may result in error of judgement and more confusion (and perhaps even broken parts which would be a real shame if it was caused by some kind of cheap/lazy communications error).

For instance one could ask why his Athlon XP 2000+ won't work on board A, but Athlon XP 2000+ could be multiple things, like a Palomino or a Thoroughbred or one of the mobile CPUs each of which may make board A respond differently.
Some CPUs have the same name so specifying additional information can prove crucial to troubleshoot a problem, like for instance the Cyrix MII 300 could be a 2.9v or a 2.2v part which can make a huge difference even though it may look kinda trivial to the untrained eye.
And some CPUs are quite frankly very different, like Pentium 4 having been made for 3 different sockets (not counting any of the mobile-only sockets) with several different cores, so a Pentium 4 3.0GHz could actually be 1 of 5 different CPUs with different performance, different features and even different CPU sockets.
So not specifying will usually just result in more questions needing to be asked and more confusion (and possibly bad advice).

If someone asks "What CPU you got?" and he gets a response "I got a pentium" yes...so which one? 🤣
If someone sais "I got a 5900 XT graphics card" it could be a Radeon RX 5900 XT or a GeForce 5900 XT.

So it's usually better to specify.

anyway, running it at half speed wasnt intentional... If its supposed to run at 2.2ghz, hell yea I want the rest of its speed 🤣. The FSB defaults to 200, and last I messed with it, it wouldnt go much past 348 i think. and the system wont POST at all past 1.6ghz. Im curious if there is some kind of jumper config for it on the mobo, kind of like older Socket 7 systems? I have my doubts, but i thought id ask.

Edit: Forgot some other points, my bad.

I havent looked into the availability of Win2K drivers for the HD4650, so im not sure really.

Jumpers weren't a main thing anymore at that time. They kinda went out of fashion once CPU manufacturers started locking their CPUs while at the same time doing the tweaking in software became a more important feature (in BIOS you don't need to open up the case every time you want to change a setting etc).

With 348 I presume you mean 348MHz FSB? That's a non-standard speed, which means the PCI bus could also be overclocked and not all system configurations like that.
It's not a huge overclock from 333 though, I doubt the bus overclock would make it stop posting with such a minor overclock (assuming 348 is indeed correct) and especially since your CPU is supposed to be able to clock to 2.2GHz (using a 400MHz FSB) stock.
The standards used for Athlon XP (any) goes from 200MHz to 400MHz in 66MHz increments (so 200, 266, 333 and 400).

It may be the power delivery crapping out.
What PSU are you using in that build? perhaps it's already been mentioned and I missed it.

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 27 of 45, by shamino

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Are you using DDR400 memory modules?
Are you using a Mobile CPU?

I'm looking at the manual to get an idea of what the BIOS settings look like.

Under Standard CMOS Features -> System Information
what does it say for your CPU Information, especially the numbers in parenthesis after the CPU Frequency?
edit: I see you posted it here

in the bios under system info, the CPU Frequency reads 1.1 ghz (100x11).

So it seems the problem is just the FSB setting.

Under "Cell_Menu"
keep Dynamic Overclocking off, it'll probably mess things up
DDR memory frequency should be "By SPD"
CPU FSB Frequency should be 200 (not 400, that's a "doubled" value, it looks like MSI uses the real frequency for this field)
CPU Ratio should be 11 (or Auto) - if using a Mobile CPU you might need to set this manually
CPU Voltage: Auto, but if it's a Mobile CPU then I don't remember if "Auto" will work. If not then may need to set manually but I don't know what the correct value is.
Memory Voltage: 2.60

It doesn't look like the BIOS has any setting for the PCI or AGP clock dividers, but if it does then make sure PCI is at 1/6 (33MHz) and AGP at 1/3 (66MHz).

If your memory is too slow then that might be preventing it from using the correct FSB.

Reply 28 of 45, by Alistar1776

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Ill definitely take a look when i get home at the system, and give yall some more info. At the time of posting, im at work on lunch break. Off the top of my head, the actual setting where i can adjust the FSB frequency starts at 100, theres a faded area that tells me the actual speed, thats the number im giving when i say "it defaults to 200" and "no post after 348" just for clarification. Its a desktop chip, and not a mobile. Memory is DDR333, only cause its what i had on hand, and Win98SE's 1gb issue, so its 764mb capacity.

Reply 29 of 45, by Tetrium

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Alistar1776 wrote on 2022-05-05, 22:50:

Ill definitely take a look when i get home at the system, and give yall some more info. At the time of posting, im at work on lunch break. Off the top of my head, the actual setting where i can adjust the FSB frequency starts at 100, theres a faded area that tells me the actual speed, thats the number im giving when i say "it defaults to 200" and "no post after 348" just for clarification. Its a desktop chip, and not a mobile. Memory is DDR333, only cause its what i had on hand, and Win98SE's 1gb issue, so its 764mb capacity.

The DDR333 may not be able to cope with your overclock.
Some boards might default to the lowest supported FSB (which in your case is 200) in case of a failed overclock.

Still doesn't explain why the CPU isn't apparently able to POST past 1.6GHz, since this implies your FSB is even below 333MHz before it starts not-posting.

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 30 of 45, by Alistar1776

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shamino wrote on 2022-05-05, 21:27:
Are you using DDR400 memory modules? Are you using a Mobile CPU? […]
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Are you using DDR400 memory modules?
Are you using a Mobile CPU?

I'm looking at the manual to get an idea of what the BIOS settings look like.

Under Standard CMOS Features -> System Information
what does it say for your CPU Information, especially the numbers in parenthesis after the CPU Frequency?
edit: I see you posted it here

in the bios under system info, the CPU Frequency reads 1.1 ghz (100x11).

So it seems the problem is just the FSB setting.

Under "Cell_Menu"
keep Dynamic Overclocking off, it'll probably mess things up
DDR memory frequency should be "By SPD"
CPU FSB Frequency should be 200 (not 400, that's a "doubled" value, it looks like MSI uses the real frequency for this field)
CPU Ratio should be 11 (or Auto) - if using a Mobile CPU you might need to set this manually
CPU Voltage: Auto, but if it's a Mobile CPU then I don't remember if "Auto" will work. If not then may need to set manually but I don't know what the correct value is.
Memory Voltage: 2.60

It doesn't look like the BIOS has any setting for the PCI or AGP clock dividers, but if it does then make sure PCI is at 1/6 (33MHz) and AGP at 1/3 (66MHz).

If your memory is too slow then that might be preventing it from using the correct FSB.

ok, im home now. So, heres my settings first boot. It booted with CMOS Checksum Error, so it probably needs a battery, but this also means bios is default now.
Dynamic OC:....................................... Disabled.
Adjust DDR Memory Frequency:......... By SPD
Adjust CPU FSB Frequency:................. 100
Adjust CPU Ratio:................................ Auto
Adjusted DDR Memory Frequency:..... 266.20MHz
Adjusted CPU Clock:............................ 1100MHz
CPU Voltage:....................................... Auto

PSU Model No. is ATX-250-12Z REV.:D3R

Edit: I set CPU FSB frequency to 200, and it posted just fine. Running at 2.2GHz, memory at 333.

Edit 2: I let it boot all the way to Win98SE and graphics are not happy, colors are wrong for a bit before they go back to normal, theres some bars of blue off to the side 🤣. Still no actual drivers loaded on the system yet for the reason i made this thread or post to begin with

Reply 31 of 45, by Tetrium

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Alistar1776 wrote on 2022-05-06, 04:54:

PSU Model No. is ATX-250-12Z REV.:D3R

This might be the cause of your system's inability to deliver enough power to run your system higher clocked. It could explain your symptoms.
It's also an old unit, it might have leaking caps.

I wouldn't open up that PSU to check unless you know -exactly- what you are doing.

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 32 of 45, by dormcat

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Alistar1776 wrote on 2022-05-05, 18:10:

I assume "Barton" is the code name for the architecture of the cpu? kinda like intel's Sky Lake, Coffee Lake, etc?

Yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A ... 0,_130_nm)

And even within the same retail name AND the same internal code name, there still can be differences; as you can see in Wikipedia, there are three different Athlon XP 2600+ "Barton" alone, so the most precise method would be using the part number. AMD CPUs have very long part numbers (3-4 letters begin with A + 4 digits of "equivalent" speed + 4-5 letters with one digit + 1 letter revision) while Intel CPUs have short 5-letters/digits part numbers known as "sSpec Numbers."

Reply 33 of 45, by Alistar1776

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Tetrium wrote on 2022-05-06, 08:36:
This might be the cause of your system's inability to deliver enough power to run your system higher clocked. It could explain y […]
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Alistar1776 wrote on 2022-05-06, 04:54:

PSU Model No. is ATX-250-12Z REV.:D3R

This might be the cause of your system's inability to deliver enough power to run your system higher clocked. It could explain your symptoms.
It's also an old unit, it might have leaking caps.

I wouldn't open up that PSU to check unless you know -exactly- what you are doing.

I have another psu thats a 420W unit, I can swap out when I get time. Back to the original question, now that the CPU is figured out 🤣.

Reply 34 of 45, by Con 2 botones

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Pairing a 3200+ with a Voodoo3 sounds...weird to me.
Voodoo3 belongs to a Slot1 Pentium III (600-800mhz), IMHO.

For an Athlon XP 3200+, an Ati 9000 series or Geforce 6000 series (maybe FX5000 series to avoid trouble with W98se in certain games) feels right.
Even Ti4200 would be more appropiate than Voodoo3.

Reply 35 of 45, by dormcat

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Con 2 botones wrote on 2022-05-06, 19:44:
Pairing a 3200+ with a Voodoo3 sounds...weird to me. Voodoo3 belongs to a Slot1 Pentium III (600-800mhz), IMHO. […]
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Pairing a 3200+ with a Voodoo3 sounds...weird to me.
Voodoo3 belongs to a Slot1 Pentium III (600-800mhz), IMHO.

For an Athlon XP 3200+, an Ati 9000 series or Geforce 6000 series (maybe FX5000 series to avoid trouble with W98se in certain games) feels right.
Even Ti4200 would be more appropiate than Voodoo3.

MS7047 can't use Voodoo3 as their respective AGP are incompatible. Like I said, the only compatible 3dfx product would be Voodoo4 4500.

On the other hand I'd suggest OP to confirm if the CPU part number is AXDA3200DKV4E before choosing a video card. "1.1 GHz" for 3200+ isn't right.

Reply 36 of 45, by Con 2 botones

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dormcat wrote on 2022-05-06, 20:11:
Con 2 botones wrote on 2022-05-06, 19:44:
Pairing a 3200+ with a Voodoo3 sounds...weird to me. Voodoo3 belongs to a Slot1 Pentium III (600-800mhz), IMHO. […]
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Pairing a 3200+ with a Voodoo3 sounds...weird to me.
Voodoo3 belongs to a Slot1 Pentium III (600-800mhz), IMHO.

For an Athlon XP 3200+, an Ati 9000 series or Geforce 6000 series (maybe FX5000 series to avoid trouble with W98se in certain games) feels right.
Even Ti4200 would be more appropiate than Voodoo3.

MS7047 can't use Voodoo3 as their respective AGP are incompatible. Like I said, the only compatible 3dfx product would be Voodoo4 4500.

On the other hand I'd suggest OP to confirm if the CPU part number is AXDA3200DKV4E before choosing a video card. "1.1 GHz" for 3200+ isn't right.

Yes, you are right.
A socket 462 board, compatible with Barton Atlhon XP, and with universal AGP...would be strange (none that I know of).
And as you said, 1.1Ghz is not the proper value for a XP3200+

Reply 37 of 45, by Alistar1776

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Con 2 botones wrote on 2022-05-06, 20:46:
Yes, you are right. A socket 462 board, compatible with Barton Atlhon XP, and with universal AGP...would be strange (none that I […]
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dormcat wrote on 2022-05-06, 20:11:
Con 2 botones wrote on 2022-05-06, 19:44:
Pairing a 3200+ with a Voodoo3 sounds...weird to me. Voodoo3 belongs to a Slot1 Pentium III (600-800mhz), IMHO. […]
Show full quote

Pairing a 3200+ with a Voodoo3 sounds...weird to me.
Voodoo3 belongs to a Slot1 Pentium III (600-800mhz), IMHO.

For an Athlon XP 3200+, an Ati 9000 series or Geforce 6000 series (maybe FX5000 series to avoid trouble with W98se in certain games) feels right.
Even Ti4200 would be more appropiate than Voodoo3.

MS7047 can't use Voodoo3 as their respective AGP are incompatible. Like I said, the only compatible 3dfx product would be Voodoo4 4500.

On the other hand I'd suggest OP to confirm if the CPU part number is AXDA3200DKV4E before choosing a video card. "1.1 GHz" for 3200+ isn't right.

Yes, you are right.
A socket 462 board, compatible with Barton Atlhon XP, and with universal AGP...would be strange (none that I know of).
And as you said, 1.1Ghz is not the proper value for a XP3200+

CPU Clock speed issue has been solved. Newbie mistake on my part, the FSB wasnt set correctly. It does run 2.2GHz. Ill take a look at some of the cards mentioned, see whats available and for a decent price.

Reply 38 of 45, by Tetrium

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Alistar1776 wrote on 2022-05-07, 04:42:
Con 2 botones wrote on 2022-05-06, 20:46:
Yes, you are right. A socket 462 board, compatible with Barton Atlhon XP, and with universal AGP...would be strange (none that I […]
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dormcat wrote on 2022-05-06, 20:11:

MS7047 can't use Voodoo3 as their respective AGP are incompatible. Like I said, the only compatible 3dfx product would be Voodoo4 4500.

On the other hand I'd suggest OP to confirm if the CPU part number is AXDA3200DKV4E before choosing a video card. "1.1 GHz" for 3200+ isn't right.

Yes, you are right.
A socket 462 board, compatible with Barton Atlhon XP, and with universal AGP...would be strange (none that I know of).
And as you said, 1.1Ghz is not the proper value for a XP3200+

CPU Clock speed issue has been solved. Newbie mistake on my part, the FSB wasnt set correctly. It does run 2.2GHz. Ill take a look at some of the cards mentioned, see whats available and for a decent price.

Then why couldn't you clock the FSB above 348MHz earlier if this wasn't even a problem? And what about the system not posting about 1.6GHz?
This doesn't make much sense. Or did you exchange PSU now before you got 400MHz FSB to work?

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 39 of 45, by agent_x007

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He probably didin't slow memory to 333MHz and ran it 1:1 with 400MHz FSB the first time.
Doesn't matter at the moment, since he claims it works now.

Here's Win2k vs. DX10 ATI driver thread : https://msfn.org/board/topic/130431-ati-radeo … r-windows-2000/
^Forced driver installation may be required (since you have AGP card, and not PCIe one).

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