Well if I did my research correctly, I found what I believe to be a Geforce 2 GTS Dell model built by Visiontek. I bought it to find out for sure.
Not a steal at $20 shipped, but probably not a bad deal either. I guess we will see.

I think $20 for a GTS is a decent deal. Nice find.

According to my measures, Matrox G200 AGP (with latest official driver), Savage4 AGP (driver from early 2000), or a TNT1 AGP (detonator driver 2.x) are the best for a super socket7 computer. GeForce FX and GeForce2 having driver cpu scaling issues, and will provide anemic speed in a Socket7 system.

If you want to play with older 3D games, i could recommend the Riva128 (latest driver), Permedia2 (early driver), or the Voodoo Rush (second driver).

Unfortunately, you use an AMD cpu in your socket7 system, which have compatibility and speed-scaling issues with most of the nvidia drivers, and stability issues with some of the nvidia and s3 drivers (stock w9x ati and s3 drivers will not work properly as well on an amd cpu).

If you use newer nvidia/matrox/s3 cards and drivers, the k6-class cpu you have... will actually get 2-4x less fps than what you would get in a similarly clocked pentium3 system.

No matter how much cache your k6/2+ has, the socket7 platform is unable to scale and feed cpus above 250 mhz effectively, there is barely any scaling from that point (if we talk about gaming). And the drivers are getting very cpu hungry starting from 2000. I think your setup is a dead end. Your setup is floating between two era of games (pre2000 and post2000) and its borderline useless for both era. Either go with the older cards i have listed + throw out the amd cpu for an intel or cyrix for better compatibility and stability, or switch to a pentium3, thats my recommendation.

Geri wrote on 2022-09-07, 23:08:

According to my measures, Matrox G200 AGP (with latest official driver), Savage4 AGP (driver from early 2000), or a TNT1 AGP (de […]
Show full quote

According to my measures, Matrox G200 AGP (with latest official driver), Savage4 AGP (driver from early 2000), or a TNT1 AGP (detonator driver 2.x) are the best for a super socket7 computer. GeForce FX and GeForce2 having driver cpu scaling issues, and will provide anemic speed in a Socket7 system.

If you want to play with older 3D games, i could recommend the Riva128 (latest driver), Permedia2 (early driver), or the Voodoo Rush (second driver).

Unfortunately, you use an AMD cpu in your socket7 system, which have compatibility and speed-scaling issues with most of the nvidia drivers, and stability issues with some of the nvidia and s3 drivers (stock w9x ati and s3 drivers will not work properly as well on an amd cpu).

If you use newer nvidia/matrox/s3 cards and drivers, the k6-class cpu you have... will actually get 2-4x less fps than what you would get in a similarly clocked pentium3 system.

No matter how much cache your k6/2+ has, the socket7 platform is unable to scale and feed cpus above 250 mhz effectively, there is barely any scaling from that point (if we talk about gaming). And the drivers are getting very cpu hungry starting from 2000. I think your setup is a dead end. Your setup is floating between two era of games (pre2000 and post2000) and its borderline useless for both era. Either go with the older cards i have listed + throw out the amd cpu for an intel or cyrix for better compatibility and stability, or switch to a pentium3, thats my recommendation.

I played halo all the way through on a k6 3+ and 9800 pro

And did this on the same setup on a cyrix mII

https://youtu.be/jx-KE-xlNS0

You can still see gains between 550 and 600 mhz. Some people are even doing higher.

BinaryDemon wrote on 2022-09-07, 22:52:

I think $20 for a GTS is a decent deal. Nice find.

If that is indeed what it is. I will definitely update the thread. Tons of them on ebay they just are listed very accurately.
It is just the 32MB version.

Geri wrote on 2022-09-07, 23:08:

According to my measures, Matrox G200 AGP (with latest official driver), Savage4 AGP (driver from early 2000), or a TNT1 AGP (de […]
Show full quote

According to my measures, Matrox G200 AGP (with latest official driver), Savage4 AGP (driver from early 2000), or a TNT1 AGP (detonator driver 2.x) are the best for a super socket7 computer. GeForce FX and GeForce2 having driver cpu scaling issues, and will provide anemic speed in a Socket7 system.

If you want to play with older 3D games, i could recommend the Riva128 (latest driver), Permedia2 (early driver), or the Voodoo Rush (second driver).

Unfortunately, you use an AMD cpu in your socket7 system, which have compatibility and speed-scaling issues with most of the nvidia drivers, and stability issues with some of the nvidia and s3 drivers (stock w9x ati and s3 drivers will not work properly as well on an amd cpu).

If you use newer nvidia/matrox/s3 cards and drivers, the k6-class cpu you have... will actually get 2-4x less fps than what you would get in a similarly clocked pentium3 system.

No matter how much cache your k6/2+ has, the socket7 platform is unable to scale and feed cpus above 250 mhz effectively, there is barely any scaling from that point (if we talk about gaming). And the drivers are getting very cpu hungry starting from 2000. I think your setup is a dead end. Your setup is floating between two era of games (pre2000 and post2000) and its borderline useless for both era. Either go with the older cards i have listed + throw out the amd cpu for an intel or cyrix for better compatibility and stability, or switch to a pentium3, thats my recommendation.

Thanks for the information on the drivers.
I am well aware of the limitations of the Super 7 platform. This isn't my only retro rig, and far from my most powerful.
However it is my favorite due mostly to nostalgia. The super 7 platform was the last of it's kind, a sort of changing of the guard so to speak. And the K6-3+ is by FAR the most powerful CPU from the platform.
Again the last of it's kind and a bit of a "going out with a bang"
Cyrix is super cool and interesting but their 6x86/MII socket 7 chips weren't in the same league as K6-2/3+. And Intel had moved on to slot one.
This is mostly about optimizing one of my two K6+ machines for use with AGP and keeping the other one powered by 3dfx.

I have PIII's, Athlons, Athlon XPs all that covered, but thank you for the advice.

Sphere478 wrote on 2022-09-08, 01:12:

I played halo all the way through on a k6 3+ and 9800 pro […]
Show full quote

Geri wrote on 2022-09-07, 23:08:

According to my measures, Matrox G200 AGP (with latest official driver), Savage4 AGP (driver from early 2000), or a TNT1 AGP (de […]
Show full quote

According to my measures, Matrox G200 AGP (with latest official driver), Savage4 AGP (driver from early 2000), or a TNT1 AGP (detonator driver 2.x) are the best for a super socket7 computer. GeForce FX and GeForce2 having driver cpu scaling issues, and will provide anemic speed in a Socket7 system.

If you want to play with older 3D games, i could recommend the Riva128 (latest driver), Permedia2 (early driver), or the Voodoo Rush (second driver).

Unfortunately, you use an AMD cpu in your socket7 system, which have compatibility and speed-scaling issues with most of the nvidia drivers, and stability issues with some of the nvidia and s3 drivers (stock w9x ati and s3 drivers will not work properly as well on an amd cpu).

If you use newer nvidia/matrox/s3 cards and drivers, the k6-class cpu you have... will actually get 2-4x less fps than what you would get in a similarly clocked pentium3 system.

No matter how much cache your k6/2+ has, the socket7 platform is unable to scale and feed cpus above 250 mhz effectively, there is barely any scaling from that point (if we talk about gaming). And the drivers are getting very cpu hungry starting from 2000. I think your setup is a dead end. Your setup is floating between two era of games (pre2000 and post2000) and its borderline useless for both era. Either go with the older cards i have listed + throw out the amd cpu for an intel or cyrix for better compatibility and stability, or switch to a pentium3, thats my recommendation.

I played halo all the way through on a k6 3+ and 9800 pro

And did this on the same setup on a cyrix mII

https://youtu.be/jx-KE-xlNS0

You can still see gains between 550 and 600 mhz. Some people are even doing higher.

Yeah. They do scale well up to a point. I can't seem to get 112mhz FSB to work properly on the Soyo PC. Only 100mhz rock solid, or 124mhz which is of course wildly unstable.
I haven't played around with the FSB speeds past 100mhz on the Tekram board, but I probably will.

Now I am sorely tempted to purchase a GA-5AA board I found for a good price. That would give me options for running the Cyrix in a 100mhz FSB board and unlock support for my much better selection of AGP cards.........

Sphere478 wrote on 2022-09-08, 01:12:

I played halo all the way through on a k6 3+ and 9800 pro […]
Show full quote

I played halo all the way through on a k6 3+ and 9800 pro

And did this on the same setup on a cyrix mII

https://youtu.be/jx-KE-xlNS0

You can still see gains between 550 and 600 mhz. Some people are even doing higher.

Holy cow Sphere. Could you share more about that setup? It's running really smoothly.

Cosmic wrote on 2022-09-08, 04:05:

Sphere478 wrote on 2022-09-08, 01:12:

I played halo all the way through on a k6 3+ and 9800 pro […]
Show full quote

I played halo all the way through on a k6 3+ and 9800 pro

And did this on the same setup on a cyrix mII

https://youtu.be/jx-KE-xlNS0

You can still see gains between 550 and 600 mhz. Some people are even doing higher.

Holy cow Sphere. Could you share more about that setup? It's running really smoothly.

Freeway ultra mobo
600 mhz k6-3+
384mb bga pc150 ram at 100
Ssd
Windows me? Or was it xp?
Radeon 9800 pro 1280x1024

The coolest socket 7 motherboard that you’ve never heard of

There was lag here and there, but very playable

Sphere478 wrote on 2022-09-08, 01:12:

You can still see gains between 550 and 600 mhz. Some people are even doing higher.

i have recently tried newer games on k6 -525 (k6/2) with asus p5a-b as well

f1-2002 ran with 2 fps, warcraft3 managed 7 fps, gta3 7 fps, motogp2 3 fps, nfs hot porsuit managed to get 6 fps with geforce2

this is not the k62+ or k6/3 variant of course - but those arent 10x faster either. these games run around 15-30 fps in a proper p3 setup in comparison.

in older games (croc1, unreal tournament and such), the geforce2 was around 20 fps or below
(tnt1 with cyrix 6x86mx @ 250 mhz in the same computer can push these old ones above 24 fps in comparison)

Geri wrote on 2022-09-08, 11:33:

i have recently tried newer games on k5 -525 (k6/2) with asus p5a-b as well […]
Show full quote

Sphere478 wrote on 2022-09-08, 01:12:

You can still see gains between 550 and 600 mhz. Some people are even doing higher.

i have recently tried newer games on k5 -525 (k6/2) with asus p5a-b as well

f1-2002 ran with 2 fps, warcraft3 managed 7 fps, gta3 7 fps, motogp2 3 fps, nfs hot porsuit managed to get 6 fps with geforce2

this is not the k62+ or k6/3 variant of course - but those arent 10x faster either. these games run around 15-30 fps in a proper p3 setup in comparison.

in older games (croc1, unreal tournament and such), the geforce2 was around 20 fps or below
(tnt1 with cyrix 6x86mx @ 250 mhz in the same computer can push these old ones above 24 fps in comparison)

I'm not sure what you mean by k5-525 (k6/2) ? Are you referring to the AMD K-5 cpu family? Or a K6-2 clocked at 525mhz?
K5 topped out officially at of the top of my head, 133mhz. k6-2 came in lots of speeds but I can't recall seeing one clocked at 525mhz, closest I can think of would be a 533.

As far as the performance you are referring to, there are far too many details missing. What is the rest of the system? RAM size, cache size and speed, cacheable RAM area?
What type of Geforce 2, MX, GTS, Ti?

There is absolutely no way that a Cyrix 6x86 is outperforming a K6-2 at the same clock speed. Let alone a K6-2+/3+

Yes, K6/2, it was a typo. 105x5.

So lets repeat again: the Cyrix 6x86mx paired with era-correct video card will outperform the k6/2 with a non-peroid correct card.
A K6/2 with an fx5200 will be around 15 fps in games where a Cyrix 6x86mx running at 250mhz paired with a matrox G200 can easily reach 25 fps.
This is true for most games made before 1999 (croc, croc2, cmr2, basically every game i can think of).

Where do i know it? Thats my main retro rig. Not to mention the bugs and glitches the k6 will do with certain drivers.
My motherboard is an asus p5a-b.
I use 768 mbyte ram (3x256) which is mainly uncached due to the size.
The cyrix 6x86mx is currently running at 100x2.5.

And the second part: P3 will outperform a k6 under most games. In some games, it will outperform it around 2x-3x, even if they run at the same clock.

And you have built a computer which is useless for gaming, as it will fail to run both older and newer games properly, thats the point of the topic.
How you can fix this problem?
Getting a better video card?
No, actually you should get an older video card. And an older processor too, to avoid incompatibility, and bugs. Such as the ones i have listed above.

Otherwise i can imagine you desperately trying to overclock your cpu with some fx5800 or something, and not understanding why something runs with 10 fps when it should really run at 30 fps even on a pentium1 with a matrox g200.

You mentioned you are aware of the limitations of the platform, yet you are trying to run a video card in it which was designed with pentium4 in their minds.
You are not truely aware of the limitations. The thing you are trying to achieve, is not going to work. The only way to make it usable, is to scale it back.
You said you already have Athlon, well, then just leave everything post tnt2 to the athlon, and repurpose your super socket7 system to make somewhat usable.

What CPU you should get? A good, overclockable Pentium1 MMX or Cyrix 6x86MX.
What video card you should get? Matrox G200, S3 Savage4, nVidia TNT1, or at least a Riva128, Voodoo Rush, Permedia2, or Voodoo3. Preferably with older (!!!!) drivers.

What cpu you should avoid at all cost in ss7? Anything that has an AMD logo on it.

Geri wrote on 2022-09-08, 20:36:

Yes, K6/2, it was a typo. 105x5. […]
Show full quote

Yes, K6/2, it was a typo. 105x5.

So lets repeat again: the Cyrix 6x86mx paired with era-correct video card will outperform the k6/2 with a non-peroid correct card.
A K6/2 with an fx5200 will be around 15 fps in games where a Cyrix 6x86mx running at 250mhz paired with a matrox G200 can easily reach 25 fps.
This is true for most games made before 1999 (croc, croc2, cmr2, basically every game i can think of).

Where do i know it? Thats my main retro rig. Not to mention the bugs and glitches the k6 will do with certain drivers.
My motherboard is an asus p5a-b.
I use 768 mbyte ram (3x256) which is mainly uncached due to the size.
The cyrix 6x86mx is currently running at 100x2.5.

And the second part: P3 will outperform a k6 under most games. In some games, it will outperform it around 2x-3x, even if they run at the same clock.

And you have built a computer which is useless for gaming, as it will fail to run both older and newer games properly, thats the point of the topic.
How you can fix this problem?
Getting a better video card?
No, actually you should get an older video card. And an older processor too, to avoid incompatibility, and bugs. Such as the ones i have listed above.

Otherwise i can imagine you desperately trying to overclock your cpu with some fx5800 or something, and not understanding why something runs with 10 fps when it should really run at 30 fps even on a pentium1 with a matrox g200.

You mentioned you are aware of the limitations of the platform, yet you are trying to run a video card in it which was designed with pentium4 in their minds.
You are not truely aware of the limitations. The thing you are trying to achieve, is not going to work. The only way to make it usable, is to scale it back.
You said you already have Athlon, well, then just leave everything post tnt2 to the athlon, and repurpose your super socket7 system to make somewhat usable.

What CPU you should get? A good, overclockable Pentium1 MMX or Cyrix 6x86MX.
What video card you should get? Matrox G200, S3 Savage4, nVidia TNT1, or at least a Riva128, Voodoo Rush, Permedia2, or Voodoo3. Preferably with older (!!!!) drivers.

What cpu you should avoid at all cost in ss7? Anything that has an AMD logo on it.

Dude I don't know what got up your ass and died....but let me explain to you that I have been building, benching and playing with computers for about 25 years. You trying to tell me I have built a "useless" build by choosing the literal FASTEST Socket 7 CPU ever made.........you sound like a clown. Again I call absolute bullshit that your 250mhz 6x86 is running twice as fast as your 525, 550 whatever clock speed K6-2. Just not buying it and you REALLY shouldn't be selling it.
I HAVE a Cyrix MII at 300mhz. I know how they perform. It is a wonderful CPU quite competitive with Pentium MMX and K6-2 class chips. Especially in integer performance. Not so much in FPU. I know this you aren't telling me a damn thing I don't already know. By the way the MII is also faster than the 6x86, clock per clock. Probably even faster in integer operations than the average K6-2.
But it's sure as shit not faster than a 500-600mhz K6-3+

And you are running yours with 768MB? Not cacheable? Yet you have the nuts to tell me that MY build is pointless? Come on man....

I have two SS7 builds. One has a k6-3+ at 600mhz with a 3dfx Voodoo 3 AGP. It performs quite excellent. Ask anyone on this forum and they will confirm this is about the most ideal Super 7 combo possible.
I also have a SS7 build with a K6-2+ at 550mhz. I am using this platform to test with various different video cards, so I asked others what they thought. I know it performs with 3dfx as well as most ATI options, I'm not really a big Nvidia fan so I don't have tons of experience with their cards, at least of this vintage. I've had a few but always ran them in faster machines. Again not sure why this pissed you off so badly......You are in love with Matrox I get it. Have fun with that, I don't have much practical experience with their stuff. Only the server chips I've encountered as a 20+ year IT administrator.

Now on the topic of Pentium 3 stuff....why you keep bringing that up? I am well aware that Pentium 3 stuff is on average faster than K6-3 chips, at least in FPU on a clock versus clock basis. I have Pentium 3 builds. If I want to use one of them I can. That isn't even in the vicinity of the point of this thread. Yet you continually keep bringing it up. To be honest I doubt that you have ever touched a well optimized K6-2/3+ system. You seem woefully ignorant of the performance gains versus the average k6-2 or Cyrix 6x86/MII.

I suggest you for one, kn0ck that cip off of your shoulder as it is doing you zero favors.
Secondly I suggest you REALLY read through this thread and get some regard of how all of these chips compare clock for clock.

The Ultimate 686 Benchmark Comparison

It really is a shame that those MIIs didn’t clock higher. At their respective mhz they were quite good. But yeah, k6-3+ is definitely the fastest socket 5/7/ss7 cpu. Would be interesting to know if it was fastest per clock though🤔

There was a socket 7 mIII in development at one point called “jedi” it was rumored to have on chip l2

A real shame that it never was released.

I keep hoping that one pops up in the hands of a engineer somewhere on the internet, but so far no luck.

There were a few joshua cores to make it out though for the socket 370 platform. If anyone reading this has one hit me up.

Fun fact is that technically it is possible to compare a pentium 1 mmx at 4-500mhz to other chips of the same speed thanks to the tillamook. It is amazing how well they overclock. Really. They have a 4x multiplier. And some apparently even a 4.5x but those are super rare.

Repo Man11 wrote on 2022-09-06, 21:13:

I decided to stop being a slacker and mod the chip. The result was typical, but it won't do the hoped for 672 MHz. A giveaway that this card is CPU limited is that overclocking it makes no real difference in the score.

Can I ask...how were you able to get 112hz FSB to work? I have been messing with my board but I can't seem to get it to work.
When I configure the jp8/jp9/jp10 blocks to reference what the manual says I just get 100mhz bus/66agp/100mhz ram. Same as if I configure it to what the manual says for 100mhz.
I can get 124mhz to post but it is of course unstable and mostly useless, perhaps if I disabled motherboard cache. But I've not tried that as I don't really want to try for 124mhz FSB.

I have tried several different cl2 sticks of ram, both PC133 and Pc100. Single sticks etc etc. I am sure that I am doing something wrong, probably something simple and obvious but for the life of me.....
Maybe it is a revision thing or bios version?

If you can’t find the setting, look up the datasheet of your clockgen.

As for stability,

Often overclocking woes are from worn out capacitors. Try a re cap.

Someone should try powering vcc3 and vcc2 with lab quality PSUs.

Jasin Natael wrote on 2022-09-09, 02:59:

Dude I don't know what got up your ass and died....but let me explain to you that I

You might talk to your mom in this style, but not with me. Muted.

Geri wrote on 2022-09-08, 20:36:

[..]Not to mention the bugs and glitches the k6 will do with certain drivers.
My motherboard is an asus p5a-b.

What (CPU related) bugs and glitches are you referring to? And why would drivers cause CPU related glitches, anyway?

SS7 builds do tend to have a lot of glitches without proper tuning, that's perfectly true, but those can in no way, shape, or form be attributed to the CPU.
SS7 glitches are caused by the chipsets/motherboard designs (i.e.: poor AGP implementation and memory compatibility are the main causes for SS7 instability).

And, yes, when using slower CPUs, this instability is somewhat (involuntarily) mitigated, but this doesn't mean that the faster CPU was to blame - that would be the wrong conclusion to come to.

I for one have 12 x Super Socket 7 builds/combos, and (with the right combination of BIOS settings, tuning, drivers) they're all fast and stable with top of the line K6-2, K6-3, K6-2+ and K6-3+ CPUs.

bloodem wrote on 2022-09-09, 11:41:

What (CPU related) bugs and glitches are you referring to? And why would drivers cause CPU related glitches, anyway?

These type of bugs are obvious if you are actually using the system actively as your main retro hardware, you will not notice them if you turn the computer on once in a month to benchmark it. For example, AMD k6/2 produces bugs with built in drivers for S3 Virge, Virge DX, Ati Rage2 drivers under win98se (colored flying polygons jumping around, texture glitches). Driver upgrade is needed to solve this issue, but that breaks compatibility with some games (croc, etc). The k6/2 also produces crashes with early 3dfx drivers with v1, v2, rush, late 3dfx drivers for voodoo3 (crash or glide simply doesn't works). Some games, such as f1 from 1997 refuses to start up on a k6/2 with certain combination of hardware. A big chunk of S3 Savage4 drivers also have issues with this cpu when running certain games (crash after few frames, and/or crash in certain software after a few minutes). Cyrix 6x86mx and Intel p1-mmx cpus are immune to this (or at least, the number of issues are lower by a magnitude). The amd k6/2 experience is a very bad experience.

Geri wrote on 2022-09-09, 11:46:

For example, AMD k6/2 produces bugs with built in drivers for S3 Virge, Virge DX, Ati Rage2 drivers under win98se (colored flying polygons jumping around, texture glitches).
Driver upgrade is needed to solve this issue, but that breaks compatibility with some games. The k6/2 also produces crashes with early 3dfx drivers with v1, v2, rush, late 3dfx drivers for voodoo3 (crash or glide simply doesn't works). Some games, such as f1 from 1997 refuses to start up on a k6/2 with certain combination of hardware. A big chunk of S3 Savage4 drivers also have issues with this cpu when running certain games (crash after few frames, and/or crash in certain software after a few minutes). Cyrix 6x86mx and Intel p1-mmx cpus are immune to this.

This reminds me of a Max Payne glitch with some of the newer AMD Ryzen CPUs.
I mean, sure, you could look at it as being a hardware problem (because on all older CPUs - Intel and AMD it used to work fine), but the harsh reality is that a developer simply made some (partially false) assumptions 20 years ago.

It's the same with the issues that you are talking about. You can blame it on the CPU, or the developers/QA testers who never bothered properly testing their software/drivers with certain hardware configurations (the latter would be more appropriate, IMO).

Also, late 3dfx drivers for Voodoo 3 work fine on any AMD K6-2/3+ CPU that I've ever tried them on. In fact, 3dfx is considered to be the most stable card that you can use on a fast AMD K6-3+ build.

bloodem wrote on 2022-09-09, 11:41:

These type of bugs are obvious if you are actually using the system actively as your main retro hardware [...]

That's a factually incorrect assumption (i.e.: that you're the only one who "actively" uses your retro hardware).