New(ish) LED monitors for DOS? Any good (criteria for 'good' specified in post)?
Re: Purchasing a 4:3 LCD for DOS/DOSBOX/MISTER/OSSC games?

also What are the best Vga to hdmi scalers or peripherals for MS-DOS games ?

There are no monitors made that do what you want. If so, all of us geeks would buy them up.

d3vilsadvocate wrote on 2023-03-15, 18:40:

Are there any newer screens that work well with older resolutions including all DOS resolutions we‘d ever want?

Nope.

Invariably there is going to be some trade-off between scaling, image quality, aspect ratios, and/or refresh rates.

ptr1ck wrote on 2023-03-15, 23:42:

There are no monitors made that do what you want. If so, all of us geeks would buy them up.

There are external VGA > HDMI hardware scalers that could handle that task, might be a bit expensive for the better ones.

The PHILIPS 252B9 is not too bad apparently.

I see scalers getting recommended everywhere. I’ve had three and they do almost nothing for me. The OSSC I got turns out to be mostly useless in conjunction with my display which is unable to display dos resolutions, 70Hz and doesn‘t scale most lower resolutions. I was hoping the OSSC could scale 800x600 or 1024x768 to the max height of my screen, but I was wrong. And low DOS resolutions still don‘t work at all… right now I’m not getting a single benefit out of my OSSC.

I’m gonna check out a few displays at a friends place and then either ‚ditch‘ this hobby or buy a screen like the Philips mentioned above.

The blunt reality is that the best solution for DOS monitors is a CRT. And the best option there is finding a new-old-stock model that doesn't have any wear and tear on it.

You can't compete with CRT motion sharpness on middle-tones transitions (not on high contrast ones though) and input lag, but at the cost of eye strain. Everything else is subjective or outright inferior to modern display technologies.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-03-16, 14:56:

You can't compete with CRT motion sharpness on middle-tones transitions (not on high contrast ones though), at the cost of eye strain. Everything else is subjective or outright inferior to modern display technologies.

I have a few CRTs, I cant use them for very long before my brain wants to kill my eyes, I'm thankful for the NEC multi-sync LCD I have that can handle most of the DOS modes well enough I don't need to use a CRT much. It does struggle with the really low res DOS stuff but I suspect that's not unusual for a LCD and one of the use cases for a nice 14" CRT.

I wish I had a LCD that could reproduce the color that a CRT gives ...The closest modern techs that can get close is Plasma and Oled. (Also the insanely expensive IPS panels for production work that get calibrated every month, they still have black issues though)

-Kinda pissed they killed off Plasma, had amazing picture quality.

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-03-16, 15:04:

I have a few CRTs, I cant use them for very long before my brain wants to kill my eyes

For me, it depends on the refresh rate. Nowadays, I can't look at a CRT monitor running at 60 Hz for extended periods of time. The flicker is simply headache inducing.

Oddly, I don't have any problems with 70 Hz (DOS 320x200 stuff) and higher rates. For Win9x gaming, I either go with 800x600 @ 120 Hz or, if I need a bit more detail, 1024x768 @ 100 Hz. Those resolutions seem to be the sweet spot for my Samsung SyncMaster.

On average 70Hz flickering is still quite discomforting for human eyes. And quite a lot of people complain about PWM flickering, which is in 3 or sometimes 4 digits.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-03-16, 15:36:

On average 70Hz flickering is still quite discomforting for human eyes.

I have no doubt that it is. Just saying that it doesn't seem to bother me personally, at least for now.

And apparently, there are some people who can game for hours on a 60 Hz CRT monitor without experiencing any problems, while I can't take more than a few minutes of that without getting eye strain.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-03-16, 15:56:

Just saying that it doesn't seem to bother me personally, at least for now.

You may not have noticed, but your brain did.

I grew up in analog PAL territory. Every brain cell that was sensitive for this flicker has already died off years ago 🤣
But I tend to use my CRT mostly for the 70 Hz low-res stuff as most 60 Hz modes display okay on my LCD monitor.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-03-16, 15:56:

I have no doubt that it is. Just saying that it doesn't seem to bother me personally, at least for now.

And apparently, there are some people who can game for hours on a 60 Hz CRT monitor without experiencing any problems, while I can't take more than a few minutes of that without getting eye strain.

This is me. Not trying to boast or anything, I'm way beyond the normal age for pissing contests, but I swear I have no idea what screen eye strain or headache is. I still run plenty of CRT screens at home, I game for several hours on them. On my modern screens I've adopted high refresh rate for a long time, I don't really like the motion of smaller framerates on modern rigs, but CRT's at lower rates don't really bother me at all. I've never ever once in my life thought "my eyes are getting tired, I should get off the screen for a while". I am not exaggerating that these feelings are 100% unknown to me. Feeling tired overall of course, but specific eye sore or headache, I can't say. I'm 40yo, been in computers since I was 5, it's become my job on top of my main hobby, I've spent a lot of my youth in dark LAN parties for 48-72h straight...in the end I'm sure I definitely have an average screen time per 24hours in double digits over my lifetime and...so far so good!

For what's it's worth I don't need glasses or anything, at least not regularly. I've had very mild myopia since I was a child, got my first glasses at 25 or something that I would only wear to drive at night and/or when raining. Myopia has gotten slightly worse with age but in an expected manner according to my ophthalmologist, but I still don't regularly wear glasses. I keep them in my car and only drive with them in all conditions, it just feels better and safer.

Maybe I should give my body including eyeballs to science 😁

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-03-16, 15:17:

For me, it depends on the refresh rate. Nowadays, I can't look at a CRT monitor running at 60 Hz for extended periods of time. The flicker is simply headache inducing.

I find it depends on the size of the monitor, distance, and what is being displayed.

For smaller monitors (e.g. 14") running games without an excess of bright imagery, I find I can tolerate lower refresh rates. In comparison a larger screen (17"+) running Windows and displaying larger swaths of bright images (like white backgrounds) can be hard on the eyes at under 85Hz.

There are widescreen LCDs that will letterbox 4:3 properly. Phil has done videos of them before. The question is do you want black pillars on either side, and take up the extra space required by a widescreen. I prefer 19" Dell LCDs that display 4:3 just fine even though are 5:4 screens. Although I do have a 4:3 LCD that can do 1600:1200, I just find its too big and bulky to bother with, I feel the same way about CRTs.

digistorm wrote on 2023-03-16, 17:56:

I grew up in analog PAL territory. Every brain cell that was sensitive for this flicker has already died off years ago 🤣
But I tend to use my CRT mostly for the 70 Hz low-res stuff as most 60 Hz modes display okay on my LCD monitor.

Same here, but with the ears. I used to hear the 15 KHz whine very clearly.
That's why I loved VGA monitors so much in the past, I suppose (31 KHz whine, out of range)..

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-03-16, 17:36:

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-03-16, 15:56:

Just saying that it doesn't seem to bother me personally, at least for now.

You may not have noticed, but your brain did.

Back in the day, in early 1990's, I had this in mind too and wanted a 14" or so monitor that can take 75Hz or up with .28 dot pitch so got it, was a generic called Darius.
Later on, when high res became common associated with windows 98SE, I was lucky to get a Samsung monitor that is set at 85Hz then another one in flat CRT in beige bezel. Once LCD became available starting with first Samsung 19" LCD 5:4 (1280x1024) when price became sane, I never looked back on CRT due to space and heat also CRT fading with age.

Do not buy any Samsung flat CRT in black cabinet with metallic grey bezel models, gone downhill and grounding issue at the CRT cathode driver IC and 19" of this also bad CRT aging prematurely within warranty and just after.

Cheers,