If there's no juddering without using a mouse, then the answer is obvious - you have polling rate mismatch. Increase polling rate on your mouse to 500-1000Hz.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-07-29, 14:50:

If there's no juddering without using a mouse, then the answer is obvious - you have polling rate mismatch. Increase polling rate on your mouse to 500-1000Hz.

Considering the exact same mouse has no issue with the same system under Win7 or with a system that has 6800 GT, I find this unlikely?

There was also some setting under user.ini that had something to do with mouse polling and the default setting seemed to be for 125Hz, according to someone explaining the values online.

you should check the polling rate in the mouse driver, if applicable. what mouse is this? maybe try a generic one on all machines/OS to eliminate driver differences as a possible factor, and use the same ut2004.ini and user.ini across all installations of course. i have to agree that the mentioned judder sounds like what can be seen in certain games when using a PS/2 mouse instead of a USB one, due to the much lower default polling rate.

auron wrote on 2023-07-30, 03:23:

you should check the polling rate in the mouse driver, if applicable. what mouse is this? maybe try a generic one on all machines/OS to eliminate driver differences as a possible factor, and use the same ut2004.ini and user.ini across all installations of course. i have to agree that the mentioned judder sounds like what can be seen in certain games when using a PS/2 mouse instead of a USB one, due to the much lower default polling rate.

- I'm using the same Razer Viper Mini on all tested systems, with the default 125Hz polling rate, with the generic Microsoft mouse driver
- which works without any issue everywhere else, including on the same i5-3570 / GTX 960 system where the issue exists under Windows XP while under Windows 7 it works perfectly with UT2003/UT2004
- The same mouse also has no issues on another system which has Windows XP and NVIDIA 6800 GT instead of 960 GTX
- The games under all systems are clean new installs with identical settings

I'm really, really having a hard time believing it has anything to do with the mouse or the polling rate. I know what PS/2 default low polling feels like, it's just laggy and this isn't it. What I'm experiencing feels and looks like the game is skipping frames. If someone can prove me wrong please do.

There must be people here who have an NVIDIA card between 8-series and 900-series under Windows XP, all I need is one of them to come forward and say: UT2003, UT2004 (and presumedly any other UE2 engine game) either works just as smooth under WinXP as it does under WinVista-> and/or under earlier NVIDIA card with Windows XP, or that they are experiencing the same issue.

I'm more interested about the issue with NVIDIA and UE2 engine under WinXP being true or not than being able to fix it, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised at all if there are plenty of people out there playing these games under WinXP with the issue not even realizing the mouse movement is supposed to be butter smooth.

Sombrero wrote on 2023-07-29, 08:30:

If you happen to be one of those people who isn't very sensitive to judder and may have not really even noticed it (or have decided to live with it thinkin that just how the game is) one good way to test it which makes the issue VERY apparent is to start a deathmatch on DM-TokaraForest with UT2003/UT2004, fly up to the pathways above the level in the pre-match spectator mode and start doing circles around any of those small lightposts you'll find up there while keeping your camera pointing at the post. If it visibly stutters as you are doing donuts around it you are experiencing the issue, it's supposed to be perfectly smooth.

I just tried it on my i5 3570k + GTX 650Ti system, and I do seem to be experiencing some stuttering under WinXP while the game runs much smoother under Win7.

Not sure if it's the same issue that you're describing, but I get some weird micro stutter under XP as if the game is constantly trying to load some assets and failing. I don't see it so much while circle strafing around those lights in DM-TokaraForest, but I definitively feel it while playing normally on DM-Deck17. In any case, no such issues under Win7, with same exact config (1600x1200 all settings maxed, V-Sync on, frame rate capped at 60).

That said, I was never a huge fan of UT2003/2004 since they always felt "slow" compared to UT99. And not in the "low FPS" sense, more like the game physics are somehow weird. Also, I think the fully patched UT2004 (e.g. the GOG version) uses OpenAL, so there should be no difference in sound quality under Win7. Granted, I didn't try adding the dedicated EAX5 patches yet, so I'm not sure about that.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-07-30, 08:02:

I just tried it on my i5 3570k + GTX 650Ti system, and I do seem to be experiencing some stuttering under WinXP while the game runs much smoother under Win7.

Not sure if it's the same issue that you're describing, but I get some weird micro stutter under XP as if the game is constantly trying to load some assets and failing. I don't see it so much while circle strafing around those lights in DM-TokaraForest, but I definitively feel it while playing normally on DM-Deck17. In any case, no such issues under Win7, with same exact config (1600x1200 all settings maxed, V-Sync on, frame rate capped at 60).

Nice, thank you for testing! Sounds exactly like the issue I'm having and yes it can be felt and even seen everywhere. Though curious you aren't noticing it clearly on those lightpoles, on my system I can actually see it going in "steps" no matter is the FPS locked to 60 via VSync or in the hundreds with VSync off. Though the same applies to everything else, just looking around the map I can see the same with the trees around you.

Seems like the UE2 engine WinXP/NVIDIA GeForce 8< issue could be true then.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-07-30, 08:02:

That said, I was never a huge fan of UT2003/2004 since they always felt "slow" compared to UT99. And not in the "low FPS" sense, more like the game physics are somehow weird. Also, I think the fully patched UT2004 (e.g. the GOG version) uses OpenAL, so there should be no difference in sound quality under Win7. Granted, I didn't try adding the dedicated EAX5 patches yet, so I'm not sure about that.

Yeah, I was thorougly hooked to UT99 and I still love it today, but never really got into UT2003/UT2004. One thing I've noticed with UT2004's sound is that under Win7 the sound of someone getting killed next to you is bit too loud and in your face, while under WinXP it's not as loud and has more depth to it. I suppose it could be improved under Win7 with Creative ALchemy or OpenAL Soft. Never tried the Creative EAX patch.

Sombrero wrote on 2023-07-30, 08:22:

Never tried the Creative EAX patch.

I just downloaded it out of curiosity. First impressions are that it has slightly better positional audio, while also introducing some weird dynamic music thing. It seems like you get a musical cue whenever you frag someone.

I instantly noticed that the music in DM-Deck17 is different, since that's my favorite map from UT99 and I know that tune very well, even if it has been remixed for UT2004. The music which the Creative patch introduces sounds completely different. There could be other changes beyond that, I guess.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-07-30, 08:34:

Sombrero wrote on 2023-07-30, 08:22:

Never tried the Creative EAX patch.

I just downloaded it out of curiosity. First impressions are that it has slightly better positional audio, while also introducing some weird dynamic music thing. It seems like you get a musical cue whenever you frag someone.

I remember reading about that dynamic music feature, sounds awful to me even as a concept. Though I'm pretty sure you could disable it somehow, thankfully.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-07-30, 08:34:

I instantly noticed that the music in DM-Deck17 is different, since that's my favorite map from UT99 and I know that tune very well, even if it has been remixed for UT2004. The music which the Creative patch introduces sounds completely different.

That I did not know. If it's replacing the classic Deck16(17) tune I'm going to stay the hell away from it, that track is part of the reason why I like the map.

Though I'm not inherently against the idea of replacing some of the soundtrack (just not Deck16) as I never did like it nearly as much as I liked UT99's soundtrack. I even added UT99's soundtrack to UT2004 back in the day, made me like the game more immediately.

Sombrero wrote on 2023-07-30, 09:05:

That I did not know. If it's replacing the classic Deck16(17) tune I'm going to stay the hell away from it, that track is part of the reason why I like the map.

I found some more info about the EAX5 patch here. Quoting the relevant bits in case that blog goes down at some point:

X-Fi Zone wrote:

Commands By default most of the enhanced audio features are on. However you may want to turn on other features such as Accents, […]
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Commands
By default most of the enhanced audio features are on. However you may want to turn on other features such as Accents, or customize things. To achieve this we have added some new UT commands you can use. To use these commands you need to type them into the UT command line window. This window can be opened by pressing the '~' tilde key on your keyboard. Press the key again to close the window when you are done.

Command: MUSICFILE <option>

Options:
- ROTATE - Rotates the music files <default>
- GAMMAROCK - Uses the Gamma Rock music only.
- WORLD - Uses the World music only.
- ORCH - Uses the Orchestral music only.
- UTDEF - Uses the default UT music.

Command: WEAPONSFILE <option>

Options
- ROTATE - Rotates the weapons <default>
- WEAPONS - Uses the Weapons sound file only.
- UTDEF - Uses the default UT weapons sounds.
Description
This command can be used to select what weapons sound file is used. By default the ROTATE setting will rotate through each weapons file loading a new one for each level. However currently there is only one enhanced weapons sound file. Note the weapons can only change when a level is loaded. Using this command during a level will not change the weapons until the next level is loaded.

Command: ACCENTS <option>

Options:
- OFF - Turns musical accents off <default>.
- ON - Turns musical accents on.

DescriptionThis command can be used to turn the musical accent sounds on or off. By default the musical accent sounds are off. Note the accent sounds can only change when a level is loaded. Using this command during a level will not change the state of the accent sounds until the next level is loaded.

So yeah, I managed to turn off dynamic music by typing MUSICFILE UTDEF into the console. From what I gather, you need to do this in the main menu, before a map is loaded. Unfortunately, this setting doesn't seem to be saved. Meaning, it will work fine for your current playthrough, but if you quit the game and re-launch it, you will have to enter that command again to disable dynamic music.

Also, I just noticed the difference in weapon sounds when the EAX5 patch is applied. Personally, I don't like the Creative ones. They seem odd, especially the Enforcer Assault Rifle which feels like it was lifted straight from a generic sound sample library. Thankfully, you can turn those off as well by entering WEAPONSFILE UTDEF into the console.