Gmlb256 wrote on 2023-10-28, 01:56:

midicollector wrote on 2023-10-28, 01:35:

The universal apis like direct x and OpenGL really came later, at the time the voodoo 1 came out, it was all proprietary apis still, with the voodoo actually being a classic example of a proprietary api.

Direct3D was released in 1996 (the same year the Voodoo Graphics card came out) but it didn't reach maturity until DirectX 7 and OpenGL existed long way before consumer hardware started to support it fully, which initially began with MiniGL drivers thanks to GLQuake.

That's very true, I just meant that the Voodoo 1 was originally all about Glide, support for other things came later.

Matrox had an API named MSI (AFAICR), which you may or may not consider significant, depending on your criteria/objectives .

Also, there is a potential distinction to make between

a) consumer products meant primarily for 3D gaming
b) commercial industrial products that might be usable for gaming (they likely supported non gaming oriented APIs that would have been considered obscure even at the time by the general public).

I would guess that you are likely more interested in scenario a) than b) .

Additionally, I assume that you intend to write a blog post or make a video (or several) about this.
If that is that case and if you want to classify cards/chips as significant or not, and pass over some of them based on this (such as the Rendition Verite V1000 and V2000 variants, for example), I suggest being transparent and consistent on the criteria used to make that determination. I don't presume to determine/dictate or even suggest the criteria that should be used, of course, as that is obviously your choice. Being clear about one's perspective, aims and reasoning is always a good thing, IMHO.

Apologies if I sound preachy, and do please feel free to ignore me, especially since most of what I wrote is not directly relevant to what you asked about.

Kordanor wrote on 2023-10-28, 00:50:

Thanks, will check regarding the TNT over Riva 128 and the Trio3D 2X over the Savage 3D

But Trio3D/2x was released after Savage3D.

But yes, what darry wrote. First, determine what level of 3D acceleration you are after, and then proceed with selection.

Kordanor wrote on 2023-10-28, 01:50:

@midicollector: Yeah, just checked regarding the 128 and TNT and also watched Phils Computer Lab regarding that, but very much s […]
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@midicollector:
Yeah, just checked regarding the 128 and TNT and also watched Phils Computer Lab regarding that, but very much sounded like more and better, but 128 already seemed comptatible.
Regarding the compatibility of Voodoo 1: Is there anything the others can run and the voodoo 1 can't? I mean obviously it needs a 2D card to work.
Just checked this video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Th8Up9aj3Q
And he stated at 1:50 that there were no issues. But even if there are a couple of games which are not optimal, it would still be fine, if they can just be run with Glide instead.

@leileilol
Corrected, ofc I meant OpenGL and Direct3D

It also should be mentioned that the Riva 128 had significant image quality issues during its time in the sun. Off hand I seem to recall these being intentional shortcuts taken to help boost performance and were mostly undone with very late drivers. The TNT was NVs first truly complete package in my opinion. It's stunning how they quickly they pivoted away from that quad rendering disaster of the NV1 (and the unreleased NV2 that was far enough along to show Sega) and got right on track afterwards.

Kordanor wrote on 2023-10-28, 00:48:

I just want to make clear that people then dont go out buying a Rage II or S3 Virge expecting it to run 3D games as they were released at the same time as Voodoo 1 and also have hardware 3D acceleration.

In 1996, I would expect people buying all those cards to do it mainly for the 3D acceleration. It took time to find out which way the industry was going.

Kordanor wrote on 2023-10-27, 20:33:

I'd like to keep it limited to the most important/significant manufacturers in the 90s. Otherwise I end up with something like t […]
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I'd like to keep it limited to the most important/significant manufacturers in the 90s.
Otherwise I end up with something like this:
https://www.vgamuseum.info/images/doc/history.png
While thats cool, thats not what I am aiming for 😁

Thanks for the link. It makes this topic absolutely pointless.

My aim for this topic was a very different one. Not pointless at all, otherwise I wouldnt have created the thread, as I used that graph already for the initial starting point. And while most of my assumptions still stand (besides of switching from Rage pro to Rage 128 in case of ATI), it was also helpful to look into some of the other possible candidates mentioned here.

I already wrote which one is maybe the most significant first ever consumer-grade 3D-videocard and you totally neglected it. ATI/AMD and nVidia built what they're now upon the remains of innovative but ill-fated companies like Rendition, 3dfx, etc. I don't see what your thread contributes as information by not even presenting credible facts.

I would consider the Vérité 1000 to be a hot candidate for multiple reasons, but not much has pan out out of its programmability.

The question would be whether you would recommend any rendition card to a retro gamer today for any period of time between 1990 and 2005, without special interest.
And if yes, which of the other ones (CL, S3, ATI, NVidia,3dfx) you would kick out for that (while keeping in mind the total timespan, which includes ISA cards).

As I mentioned I am doing an overview which goes by vendor. And this overview is also not about 3D cards. But I wanted to add the info about 3D capability.

Also this thread was meant as a question, helping for my overview. It wasn't intended to uncover some new facts. Sorry, if that was not clear.

S3 (virge/dx/gx) goes out of the list immediately. V1000 was better. First ATI and nVidia 3d-tryouts I will not even mention them.

Kordanor wrote on 2023-10-30, 10:54:

The question would be whether you would recommend any rendition card to a retro gamer today for any period of time between 1990 and 2005, without special interest.
And if yes, which of the other ones (CL, S3, ATI, NVidia,3dfx) you would kick out for that (while keeping in mind the total timespan, which includes ISA cards).

Without special interest I might not reccommend any card you are considering.
Cirrus Logic had the smallest impact with their 3d chips, so I would scratch them. Nvidia and 3dfx did not power ISA cards, S3 only a little bit, so I don't see why that matters. 3d was a revolution during which the new companies pushed out almost all the old ones.

Putas wrote on 2023-10-30, 13:21:

Kordanor wrote on 2023-10-30, 10:54:

The question would be whether you would recommend any rendition card to a retro gamer today for any period of time between 1990 and 2005, without special interest.
And if yes, which of the other ones (CL, S3, ATI, NVidia,3dfx) you would kick out for that (while keeping in mind the total timespan, which includes ISA cards).

Without special interest I might not reccommend any card you are considering.
Cirrus Logic had the smallest impact with their 3d chips, so I would scratch them. Nvidia and 3dfx did not power ISA cards, S3 only a little bit, so I don't see why that matters. 3d was a revolution during which the new companies pushed out almost all the old ones.

The limitation for me is not individual cards, but individual companies. In my overview I got space for 5 "timelines" for companies, usually 1 card per year per type (ISA/VLB,PCI,AGP)
CL I use to talk about ISA cards, as they are also often recommended. S3 got ISA but also good compatibility with early PCI cards . Both companies also reach into the 3D era.
I chose ATI and Nvidia because they are the obvious behemoths of today, and 3dfx as one of the most popular options back then.
So covering Nvidia means covering the NV1 up to the Geforce 7000 series. Leaving out the NV1 would just leave a missing card in the Nvidia timeline, but not make space for any others.
The question was just "at which point are they a useful option for 3D games at that time" as I will mention that and mark that with little Icons, but that's about it.
And while I want to keep it compact, I also dont want to give incorrect info, which is why I created this thread.

I see.
There is no way to determine at which point are they a useful option for 3D games, that is subjective. Every consumer 3d accelerator of those vendors can make playable some acclaimed games. At least by standards of their time.