analog_programmer wrote on 2024-01-23, 07:04:

Never had one of these old Matrox videocards, but now I can get one MGA-G100 Productiva for a few bucks. I wonder if is it compatible with MSI 3d API which I know was for Matrox MGA-1064SG Mystique/MGA-1164SG Mistique 220? There's not much information on the internet about G100, this is from vgamuseum.info: "Enhanced 3D core from Mystique, SDR support. Sold as lowcost business solution."

Theoretically, yes, but it's apparently broken.

https://vintage3d.org/mga3.php

darry wrote on 2024-01-23, 07:26:

Theoretically, yes, but it's apparently broken.

https://vintage3d.org/mga3.php

OK, "Compatibility with MSI is broken, so for OpenGL games Techland's d3d wrapper was used.", but does that mean it's broken on hardware level?

I don't see "Incoming" in the list with MSI API games list here (I don't know which one is the car racing game from the other pictures). I'm intending to use the card mainly in DOS and there are not much DOS games with MSI API support.

analog_programmer wrote on 2024-01-23, 07:48:

I'm intending to use the card mainly in DOS and there are not much DOS games with MSI API support.

Tomb Raider with the proper Matrox patch works fairly well under MSI, at least in terms of frame rate. Visually, the lack of bilinear filtering kinda stands out, as does the weird checkerboard transparency that early Matrox cards were (in)famous for.

Note that I've only tested TR on my Millennium II, and even that card needed a newer version of the MSI patch to be recognized correctly.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-01-23, 08:33:

Tomb Raider with the proper Matrox patch works fairly well under MSI, at least in terms of frame rate. Visually, the lack of bilinear filtering kinda stands out, as does the weird checkerboard transparency that early Matrox cards were (in)famous for.

Note that I've only tested TR on my Millennium II, and even that card needed a newer version of the MSI patch to be recognized correctly.

Ok, but again here https://vintage3d.org/mga2.php is written: "It (MGA-2164W Millennium II) is the last MSI compatible card." and it seems like darry will be right about broken MSI API compatibility (maybe it's on hardware level, not in the Win9x 3D API implementation or Win9x drivers) in MGA-G100. It seems like MGA-G100 came after MGA-2164W. And still we can only guess, until someone with real MGA-G100 Productiva card confirm if in DOS MSI API games don't work.

I really want to get some Matrox Mystique (220) or Millennium II, but they're rare and hard to find at reasonable price where I live.

Is the Millenium II really msi compatible?

Johnylyr wrote on 2024-01-23, 09:41:

Is the Millenium II really msi compatible?

Depends on the game, but usually yes. Might also depend on the BIOS of the card. Supposedly, some later BIOS revisions removed MSI support.

Here's a video of the Millennium II running Tomb Raider using MSI.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-01-23, 09:45:

Depends on the game, but usually yes. Might also depend on the BIOS of the card. Supposedly, the latest BIOS revisions removed MSI support.

Hmmmm, maybe the MSI compatibility problem with MGA-G100 is also in its BIOS. Who knows...

P.S. I'll gladly spend EUR 6 for this old junky MGA-G100 card to test it with different BIOS versions for MSI API compatibility, the only problem is where to find more than one BIOS version for Matrox 815-01 REV:A with 8 MB SDRAM.

I couldn't get any MSI going on a G100A. I did do the aforementioned Techland D3D DLL thing because I wanted OpenGL fun on a card with no OpenGL ICD support ever and it worked as well as it does in Direct3D (i.e. the lod calculation broken with models being half blurry, no blending functions, etc). What I found most interesting about it is that despite its lack of blending, it did support fog, and it can modulate alpha (while still dithered)

leileilol wrote on 2024-01-26, 01:29:

I couldn't get any MSI going on a G100A. I did do the aforementioned Techland D3D DLL thing because I wanted OpenGL fun on a card with no OpenGL ICD support ever and it worked as well as it does in Direct3D (i.e. the lod calculation broken with models being half blurry, no blending functions, etc). What I found most interesting about it is that despite its lack of blending, it did support fog, and it can modulate alpha (while still dithered)

leileilol, glad you chimed in as an owner of a similar MGA-G100 videocard and thank you very much for the clarifications.

Let's summarize what we get with Matrox MGA-G100 Productiva:
- mostly poor 3D performance
- broken MSI API support
- no "out of the box" OpenGL support
- poor bilinear filtering
- broken level of detail for 3D models
- broken alpha blending
...
- broken VESA modes

What else could be broken in this "3D accelerator" videocard? 😁
(But hey, it could always be worse, as with Alliance AT3D 😁 😁 😁)

Now I understood why it was named "Productiva". There's no way this card to be used for 3D-gaming at office, thus increasing the productivity of office workers immensely (let's pretend for a moment that m$-windows solitaire doesn't exist 😀 ).

I forgot to note that these MGA-G100 vidocards have no PCI-slot variants and it already seems to me that there's absolutely no point in trying to use one on PII/PIII systems (I don't yet own a working super socket 7 motherboard with an AGP slot as their prices have become insanely high, but in such a system this videocard would also barely find any particularly practical use). So, this Matrox office video card is probably only going to fill out someone's collection as an almost completely useless factory-broken "3D accelerator" product.

Still, only EUR 6 including the shipping... Maybe I've to think about if I'll become a collector of old videocards in near future 😀

Update: One more "useful feature" + broken VESA modes.

I reconsidered. I don't need such AGP-garbage, even if it only cost EUR 6.

P.S. The S3 ViRGE/GX2 is also similar useless AGP-garbage, but at least is more compatible in DOS.

The performance I thought was very good for what it is, at least according to Final Reality. The VGA output was also sharp and could work with PowerDesk. 😀

It could logically have a home in a P2 Klamath. It's an early AGP card and feels handy for a "poor mans/womans mystique/millennium" substitute and feels more functional than most of the then-1998 state of a lot of first generation 3d cards. It's definitely > ViRGE at 3d in my book.

analog_programmer wrote on 2024-01-26, 03:08:

Let's summarize what we get with Matrox MGA-G100 Productiva: - mostly poor 3D performance - broken MSI API support - no "out of […]
Show full quote

Let's summarize what we get with Matrox MGA-G100 Productiva:
- mostly poor 3D performance
- broken MSI API support
- no "out of the box" OpenGL support
- broken level of detail for 3D models
- broken alpha blending
...
What else could be broken in this "3D accelerator" videocard? 😁

This is normal for early 3D cards, which is in essence what the G100 is. It's Matrox being Matrox, a better Mystique when everybody else had moved on. Crapping on it for not following the times would be missing the point.

leileilol wrote on 2024-01-26, 03:41:

It could logically have a home in a P2 Klamath. It's an early AGP card and feels handy for a "poor mans/womans mystique/millennium" substitute and feels more functional than most of the then-1998 state of a lot of first generation 3d cards. It's definitely > ViRGE at 3d in my book.

Well, I own one unlocked Klamath 266 which runs fine at 3 x 100 MHz FSB, so I think I'll be able to use this Matrox Productiva as 2D-only card (instead of S3 ViRGE*) in addition to one of my Voodoo2 cards. Do you have any idea if Productiva's DOS VESA modes compatibility is decent?

vvbee wrote on 2024-01-26, 03:59:

This is normal for early 3D cards, which is in essence what the G100 is. It's Matrox being Matrox, a better Mystique when everybody else had moved on. Crapping on it for not following the times would be missing the point.

It's not so early 3D videcard. The Mystique, Mystique 220 and Milennium II models were developed and released before this one (Productiva is from G200's time) and they aren't so much factory broken.

Anyway, I might take it for a 2D card for the Voodoo2 on a PII system.

* - as a "proud" owner of S3 ViRGE/GX 3D-decelerator from 1998 'till now (my very first 3D videocard which is still alive and "kicking" 😁 ), I always thought there was no worse card than it. I already know there are several other similar products released with not bad or even good specs (only on paper) and terrible real implementation.

I haven't done extensive dos testing but I can't imagine it being any better than the problems of all the MGA cards before it (i.e. some vesa games with screwed up palettes). That may the only edge the ViRGE has over G100A (and other MGA cards)

Ok, so now it seems that this Productiva card is really a complete garbage.

I'll be looking for a Millennium II at a reasonable price. And for the Voodoo1/2 accelerators I'll continue to use only the much hated S3 Trio64, ViRGE and Trio3D variants as 2D-cards.

Once again, thanks for all the info, leileilol.

I wouldn't say "complete garbage"!!!!!! That's how early 3d cards rolled while API standards were more like rough drafts. DOS was virtually dead so that wasn't a priority for many. While G100's alpha is all dithery, it at least is *accelerated* compared to Rage, and can be modulated unlike a ViRGE/Rage.

Yeah, DOS is "dead" for 99.9999...% of the PC-users and that goes for those ancient ISA, VLB, PCI, AGP and most of older PCI-E video cards too! But here we come from the point of view of a retro-PC hobby enthusiasts. I shared how this Matrox card now looks to me against the background of other factory-broken much more hated videocards (the S3 "3D decelerator" models which I still found to be much more useful for me). I was hoping it would at least has support for the MSI 3D API, and since it doesn't do that either, it's useless to me and that's why I can call it "complete garbage" (the things, which are useless to someone, are thrown away as a garbage).

analog_programmer wrote on 2024-01-26, 04:17:

It's not so early 3D videcard. The Mystique, Mystique 220 and Milennium II models were developed and released before this one (Productiva is from G200's time) and they aren't so much factory broken.

It is an early 3D card, you're listing the characteristics. It's Matrox pushing older stuff on the office market with random 3D quality of life updates.

Instead of the mystique and the g200, the g100 gives me headaches on amithlon too...no native acceleration and vesa also broken...even mystique is just fine here.

bilinear filtering on very early 3d cards is no a must have for me...the alpha? blending is the bigger weakness...
mystique is a very fast early 3D accelrator, but not so much games offered support in form of degrading missing features of the card. WC5 is a good example. Mystique is fine here and looks beautiful.