VOGONS


First post, by Kahenraz

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If the Rage 2 and Rage 3 both inherit compatibility with the Mach64 core to retain the ability to use older drivers (such as for Windows 3.1), what would be a reason to use a Mach64 or Rage 2 instead?

Reasons I can think of:

Compatibility with specific MPEG and other feature expansion boards, as well as a few very rare edge cases with games. None of these cards are best in class for DOS games compared to a early generation S3, Trident or even significant advatage over later generation Nvidia cards, so it's not like the older ones are any more compatible.

Why would I ever want to choose a Mach64 or Rage 2 card over a Rage 3?

Last edited by Kahenraz on 2024-02-28, 09:13. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 3 of 16, by Kahenraz

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I have been experimenting with the Rage Pro Turbo and Rage XL (with a few more variations on the way) and found some subtle differences. It's already known that CIF compatibility differs between the Rage Pro and XL, but I have also found that OpenGL support is slightly less accurate on the Rage Pro and requires an older ICD driver for Quake 1 to render without glitches.

The sky in 3DMark 99 also renders differently (inaccurately) on the Rage Pro with the latest ATI drivers, but renders correctly on the Rage XL. The latest drivers where it renders correctly on the Rage XL are not recommended anyways, however, because it breaks paletted texture support.

The Rage Pro is definitely the slower chip. The XL is both faster and can overclock without trouble. The Rage Pro may take a small overclock, but nearly as high as the XL.

To summarize:

The Rage Pro has proper CIF support for both AGP and PCI (XL only supports CIF with AGP) but has some OpenGL glitches with the latest driver.

The Rage XL supports a slightly newer OpenGL ICD without glitches, but I don't know what improvements it has. I only tested it with Quake 1; maybe there is something to see in Quake 2 or 3. The XL is also faster and can be overclocked even higher.

Last edited by Kahenraz on 2024-02-29, 02:44. Edited 10 times in total.

Reply 4 of 16, by BitWrangler

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Yeah the earlier Rages are kinda level with the late OG arch Virges, and are edged out by good SiS6326 implementations.

M64 though, in VLB it's obviously about flexing your fleabaybux ePeen, and having a stupid expensive "486"...

(That just happened to be "together" from a decade plus back, should develop it into a full on troll build with compact model M, "that" minitower case [IIIII] and other stupid expensive for no reason stuff...)

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Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 5 of 16, by Joseph_Joestar

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The Rage II has slightly better compatibility with ATi CIF games, according to Gona's website.

Personally, I'm curious if the CIF version of Tomb Raider crashes on the Rage II as well, or if that's specific to the Rage Pro/XL cards.

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Reply 6 of 16, by CoffeeOne

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BitWrangler wrote on 2024-02-28, 23:04:

Yeah the earlier Rages are kinda level with the late OG arch Virges, and are edged out by good SiS6326 implementations.

M64 though, in VLB it's obviously about flexing your fleabaybux ePeen, and having a stupid expensive "486"...

(That just happened to be "together" from a decade plus back, should develop it into a full on troll build with compact model M, "that" minitower case [IIIII] and other stupid expensive for no reason stuff...)

Nah, that's the cheap DRAM version of the Mach64, you need to get the much more expensive 4MB VRAM version of it. Possibily the one with the 220MHz RAMDAC. Haha.

Reply 7 of 16, by analog_programmer

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Kahenraz wrote on 2024-02-28, 06:44:

If the Rage 2 and Rage 3 both inherit compatibility with the Mach64 core to retain the ability to use older drivers (such as for Windows 3.1), what would be a reason to use a Mach64 or Rage 2 instead?

What is this Rage 3? I know there are Rage Pro/Turbo/XL/128/Fury, but never heard of Rage 3.

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Reply 8 of 16, by swaaye

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The original Radeon is codenamed Rage 6. So I suppose Rage 3 could be Rage Pro and Rage 4 could be Rage 128. I'm not sure what 5 would be. Rage Fury Maxx or Rage XL perhaps.

Reply 9 of 16, by Putas

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Rage 3, or R3, is the codename of the Rage Pro chip and/or architecture. Rage XL chip is R3L. Rage 5 is a mystery to me. R6 became an architecture name, rather than a particular chip. The following architecture was still named in that tradition- R7.

Reply 10 of 16, by Kahenraz

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analog_programmer wrote on 2024-02-29, 16:57:
Kahenraz wrote on 2024-02-28, 06:44:

If the Rage 2 and Rage 3 both inherit compatibility with the Mach64 core to retain the ability to use older drivers (such as for Windows 3.1), what would be a reason to use a Mach64 or Rage 2 instead?

What is this Rage 3? I know there are Rage Pro/Turbo/XL/128/Fury, but never heard of Rage 3.

Rage 3 encompasses the Rage Pro series, such as Rage Pro, Turbo, XL, etc.

Reply 11 of 16, by BitWrangler

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swaaye wrote on 2024-02-29, 18:25:

I'm not sure what 5 would be. Rage Fury Maxx or Rage XL perhaps.

Apparently it's the gamecube GPU, flipper.

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Reply 12 of 16, by DrAnthony

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BitWrangler wrote on 2024-03-01, 00:46:
swaaye wrote on 2024-02-29, 18:25:

I'm not sure what 5 would be. Rage Fury Maxx or Rage XL perhaps.

Apparently it's the gamecube GPU, flipper.

I don't think that timeline fits though. The GameCube released in like 2001 and R100 Radeons were out in 2000. Heck, ATI didn't buy ArtX until early 2000 and they were the ones that designed Flipper anyways. I imagine R5 was a project that got axed early in the design phase. It's easy to imagine ATI looking at an evolved Rage 128 as a safe backup to the fairly ambitious R100 project and it getting cut once R100 proved on track and viable. Totally shooting from the hip on this though.

Reply 13 of 16, by Minutemanqvs

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Kahenraz wrote on 2024-02-28, 22:49:
I have been experimenting with the Rage Pro Turbo and Rage XL (with a few more variations on the way) and found some subtle diff […]
Show full quote

I have been experimenting with the Rage Pro Turbo and Rage XL (with a few more variations on the way) and found some subtle differences. It's already known that CIF compatibility differs between the Rage Pro and XL, but I have also found that OpenGL support is slightly less accurate on the Rage Pro and requires an older ICD driver for Quake 1 to render without glitches.

The sky in 3DMark 99 also renders differently (inaccurately) on the Rage Pro with the latest ATI drivers, but renders correctly on the Rage XL. The latest drivers where it renders correctly on the Rage XL are not recommended anyways, however, because it breaks paletted texture support.

The Rage Pro is definitely the slower chip. The XL is both faster and can overclock without trouble. The Rage Pro may take a small overclock, but nearly as high as the XL.

To summarize:

The Rage Pro has proper CIF support for both AGP and PCI (XL only supports CIF with AGP) but has some OpenGL glitches with the latest driver.

The Rage XL supports a slightly newer OpenGL ICD without glitches, but I don't know what improvements it has. I only tested it with Quake 1; maybe there is something to see in Quake 2 or 3. The XL is also faster and can be overclocked even higher.

Which drivers would you recommend for a Rage Pro and Rage XL then?

Searching a Nexgen Nx586 with FPU, PM me if you have one. I have some Athlon MP systems and cookies.

Reply 14 of 16, by Kahenraz

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There seems to be caveats with all variations of drivers. I will try to put together a complete list, but I am still doing testing. I also found that both the Rage Turbo AGP and Rage XL AGP suffer from a problem with the latest OpenGL ICD in Quake 1, which is not present on either PCI version. This can be mitigated by using an older ICD, but this has been found to introduce other bugs and instability.

This is extremely frustrating. The Rage 3 PCI/AGP Turbo/XL have so much potential but have several driver edge cases that were never resolved.

Edit:

Fixed the OpenGL flickering bug with the latest ICD by lowering the AGP Aperture to 32MB or less in the BIOS. This is very important, because the earlier ICDs could cause video corruption that necessitated a reboot.

Reply 15 of 16, by marxveix

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Kahenraz wrote on 2024-02-28, 22:49:

The Rage Pro has proper CIF support for both AGP and PCI (XL only supports CIF with AGP)

I think Rage XL PCI and Rage XC PCI works with ATi 3DCiF also, just not with the very latest 4752 (RageXL PCI) and 4753 (RageXC PCI) versions at the moment, for that you can use drivers without 3dcif support (still they have d3d/opengl support). Drivers that support 4752 and 4753 cards, came later, when 3dcif api support was abandoned from ATi.

These two should work or needs testing:
"RAGE XL PCI (474F)"= MACXW4_PCI_ENU, PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_474F&SUBSYS_474F1002, PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_474F
"RAGE XC PCI (4C50)"= MACXW4_PCI_ENU, PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_4C50&SUBSYS_4C501002, PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_4C50

These two should not work with 3dcif now:
"RAGE XL PCI (4752)"= MACXW4_PCI_ENU, PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_4752&SUBSYS_47521002, PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_4752
"RAGE XC PCI (4753)"= MACXW4_PCI_ENU, PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_4753&SUBSYS_47531002, PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_4753

Confirmed working XL AGP and XC AGP
"RAGE XL AGP (474D)"= MACXW4_AGP_ENU, PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_474D&SUBSYS_474D1002, PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_474D
"RAGE XC AGP (474E)"= MACXW4_AGP_ENU, PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_474E&SUBSYS_474E1002, PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_474E

Rage Pro PCI/LT Pro PCI/Rage Turbo PCI/Mobility PCI/Rage XC (4C50) PCI/Rage XL (474F) PCI should work with 3dcif/direct3d/opengl, but cant give any warranty 😀

If Rage XL PCI (474F) works with 3dcif driver and i had two Rage XL PCI cards that has unlocked bioses, then i would try to reflash 4752 with the 474F bios, Rage XL AGP 474D works flalessly, so should work similarly named Rage XL PCI 474F.

Anybody that has Rage XL PCI (474F), can try Gona or my 3dcif driver out, to be sure. Gona 3dcif driver is here:
https://gona.mactar.hu/ATI3DCIF/drivers ... -ME_r4.zip

One topic about these Chinese RageXL PCI 4752 cards: Chinese Rage XL PCI mods, improved compatibility and looking for a good overclock.

31 different MiniGL/OpenGL Win9x files for all Rage 3 cards: Re: ATi RagePro OpenGL files

Reply 16 of 16, by marxveix

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Kahenraz wrote on 2024-03-02, 01:50:

Fixed the OpenGL flickering bug with the latest ICD by lowering the AGP Aperture to 32MB or less in the BIOS.

Rage3-GL_Win9x download i added this readme for OpenGL: Re: ATi RagePro OpenGL files

Rage3=Rage Pro/Rage Pro Turbo/LTPRO/XL/XC/Mobility-P/M

MiniGL you can try out, just replace Opengl32.dll file
inside your Game folder, probably works with Quake1/2.

Rage3 based cards and OpenGL works only in 16 bit mode!
Rename Atoglrp9.dl_ OpenGL file if needed and overwrite
and install it with your unpacked Win9x graphics driver.

Autoexec.bat added for easy OpenGL version quick change,
without computer restart, packed/unpacked Atoglrp9.dll.
OpenGL can be named Atio9xad.dll or Atio9xae.dll &other.
Usually biggest file in your driver folder, easy to see.

GLQuake fix > from OpenGL 4.12.1095 up to 4.12.1107 add
gl_ztrick "0" to quake/id1 autoexec.cfg or open glquake
console and type gl_strick 0 to fix missing bottom hud
(status bar) and screen flickerings before your gaming.
Edited autoexec.cfg works also with older OGL versions.

Return to Castle Wofenstein likes sometimes Safe Mode
and dont use 107x or older OpenGL versions @this game.
Oni game also dont work with OpenGL 107x or older and
newer Seroius Sam game does not work @ v1091 or older.
Some Games require newer or older OpenGL versions that
work better, newer OpenGL should have more bugs fixed.

Reduce AGP Aperture setting in the BIOS to 32MB or less,
may help in some situations for flickering or glitches.
Rage3 @AGP + 8MB are also faster than PCI or 4MB cards,
but we can improve OpenGL performance @atidbg settings.

My atidbg.ini settings, you can change them at any time.
C:\WINDOWS\atidbg.ini - the location where it should be.

[OPENGL]
EnableMTSGI=0
EnableMTARB=0
BreakPageFlipping=1

[Kelvin]
Bilinear=0
Alpha=1
TexMap=1

[Performance]
SkipFlipWaitIdle=1
UsePioDraw=0

Max fps settings are fastest if you install atidbg.ini.
Use Autoexec.bat and install atidbg.ini to get Max fps.
Added Max/Fast/Normal atidbg settings for easy install.

Multitexture+Bilinear filtering disabled-Max fps
[OPENGL]
EnableMTSGI=0
EnableMTARB=0
[Kelvin]
Bilinear=0

Copy or edit atidbg.ini @ C:\WINDOWS\atidbg.ini
Multitexture + Bilinear filtering enabled-Fast fps
[OPENGL]
EnableMTSGI=1
EnableMTARB=1
[Kelvin]
Bilinear=1

Copy or edit atidbg.ini @ C:\WINDOWS\atidbg.ini
Multitexture disabled/Bilinear filtering enabled-Normal

[OPENGL]
EnableMTSGI=0
EnableMTARB=0
[Kelvin]
Bilinear=1

Other atidbg.ini settings (0 or 1 to change off/on)
These settings will change speed and how it looks.
SkipFlipWaitIdle works from OpenGL v1084 and newer,
if your Game is laggy & makes strange keyboard and
mouse movements,disable it with SkipFlipWaitIdle=0
I use SkipFlipWaitIdle=1 only with Max atidbg.ini.

[OPENGL]
BreakPageFlipping=0 or 1

[Kelvin]
Alpha=0 or 1
TexMap=0 or 1

[Performance]
SkipFlipWaitIdle=0 or 1
UsePioDraw=0 or 1

Performance and stability of each ICD is different.
To recommend specific OpenGL is not easy, you should
see what suits your Games, use any of available ones.
I would use OpenGL1094 version for my starting point.
Also it is easy to change OpenGL and ATIDBG settings.

31 different MiniGL/OpenGL Win9x files for all Rage 3 cards: Re: ATi RagePro OpenGL files