On both of my "oldschool rigs" I use MS-DOS 7.10. No big compatibility problems encountered yet.
Some old programs cannot get along with FAT32, in these cases putting them onto a ramdisk or a FAT16 partition helps.

The only program that refused to work with MS-DOS 7.10 was Creative's DOS/Win3.11 installer for their SB16/AWE32 card. It assumes you are running it in a Win95 shell and quits with an error message. However, there also is a DOS driver package for Win9x users on their support server, which contains all all the stuff needed for the cards.

In rare cases programs rely on DOS utilities that are not installed by default, Microsoft has included them in a supplemental disk.

Like the guy on the webpage you mentioned, I use chipset UMB drivers instead of EMM386.EXE, which gives me 628K of free base memory. But the biggest advantage is that these drivers keep the CPU in real mode.
UMBPCI does not work on all systems due to chipset restrictions, read the docs before installing. Here is a link to the author's website. You can also find links to other chipset UMB drivers there (for 486 chipsets).

5u3 wrote:

The only program that refused to work with MS-DOS 7.10 was Creative's DOS/Win3.11 installer for their SB16/AWE32 card. It assumes you are running it in a Win95 shell and quits with an error message.

But in order to install SB16/AWE32 in DOS, we don't really need the Creative installer, do we? I mean, we can still do it manually by editing the CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT, isn't that the case?

5u3 wrote:

Like the guy on the webpage you mentioned, I use chipset UMB drivers instead of EMM386.EXE, which gives me 628K of free base memory. But the biggest advantage is that these drivers keep the CPU in real mode.

Wait, this is new to me. So if we use the DOS 7.10 version of EMM386.EXE, it will put the CPU in protected mode? Thus preventing real-mode DOS games to run? (which is basically most of the DOS games)

5u3 wrote:

UMBPCI does not work on all systems due to chipset restrictions, read the docs before installing. Here is a link to the author's website. You can also find links to other chipset UMB drivers there (for 486 chipsets).

Well, then I'm glad that my mobo (for the legacy system I'm planning to build) is Soyo SY-845PE ISA, because Intel 845 is included in the chipset supported by UMBPCI.

By the way, the Soyo 845PE ISA is the only Pentium 4 mobo with ISA slots. In fact, it has THREE ISA slots 😎 . I indeed plan to use Pentium 4 processor for my DOS-bootable system, because I also plan to dual boot with Windows 98 to play Win98-only games (won't run on WinXP) like Jane's USAF and Jane's F/A-18.

As for pure DOS, I know I'm gonna' need a good slowdown utility to run DOS games. I think the only problem of running DOS games with Pentium 4 is the speed. However, am I being wrong here? Speed issues aside, are there more problems (compatibility, etc) in running pure DOS in Pentium 4?

On my DOS machine I use MS-DOS 7 without any problems. Granted, I play all DOS games released before 1995 in DOSBox, with the exception of System Shock.

Freddo wrote:

On my DOS machine I use MS-DOS 7 without any problems. Granted, I play all DOS games released before 1995 in DOSBox, with the exception of System Shock.

So you play System Shock with MS-DOS 7, without problem?

By the way, what CPU are you using? Is there any known compatibility problems of using newer processor (Pentium 4, etc) with pure DOS? Speed aside, I mean. But speed issues can be handled by slowdown utils, right?

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

But in order to install SB16/AWE32 in DOS, we don't really need the Creative installer, do we? I mean, we can still do it manually by editing the CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT, isn't that the case?

Exactly. This is also a chance to leave out some of the memory hogging TSRs that are installed by default when using the Creative installer, but are not really needed in games.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

Wait, this is new to me. So if we use the DOS 7.10 version of EMM386.EXE, it will put the CPU in protected mode? Thus preventing real-mode DOS games to run? (which is basically most of the DOS games)

EMM386 is basically the same in all DOS versions. Yes, it puts the CPU in protected mode in order to gain access to high memory. To maintain compatibility to real mode programs, it then runs the whole MS-DOS session in a single virtual 8086 mode task (which is the same method Windows uses for executing DOS programs). Everything would be fine, except that some games do not get along with this kind of arrangement, because they are programmed to access hardware directly and often include their own crude memory management. Problems mainly arise because of these two issues:

1) Since direct hardware manipulations are not possible in protected mode, EMM386 has to simulate hardware behaviour when DOS programs try to access it. This leads to timing problems in games (e.g. stuttering in video output, generally slow behavior).
2) Many games use advanced real mode tricks to gain access to more memory, often these methods collide with EMM386 and Vmode86, the game crashes the whole V86 session.

In manuals and README files you often find the hint to remove memory managers like EMM386, QEMM, etc... or using a "clean" boot diskette to get a game running or increase performance.
Now just for a few UMBs, all these issues are a high price to pay. People often resort to setting up multiple DOS configurations -- one with EMM386, one without -- to cope with that, but it's cumbersome to have to reboot every time a game needs the other configuration.
Hence the chipset UMB drivers. They provide UMBs without switching to protected mode. They have their own problems too (because of the peculiarities of some chipsets), but are generally more comfortable to use.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

By the way, the Soyo 845PE ISA is the only Pentium 4 mobo with ISA slots. In fact, it has THREE ISA slots 😎

Nice! 😁

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

As for pure DOS, I know I'm gonna' need a good slowdown utility to run DOS games. I think the only problem of running DOS games with Pentium 4 is the speed. However, am I being wrong here? Speed issues aside, are there more problems (compatibility, etc) in running pure DOS in Pentium 4?

Yes, for some titles turning off the caches will not be enough, so a slowdown utility will certainly come in handy.
In very rare cases DOS games use 486 programming tricks that will crash a Pentium (Comanche was one of these, but there is a patch to fix it). Other than that, there shouldn't be any problems.

5u3 wrote:

Exactly. This is also a chance to leave out some of the memory hogging TSRs that are installed by default when using the Creative installer, but are not really needed in games.

So the only apps won't run on MS-DOS 7 is a shitty installer by Creative Labs. Good news indeed! 😁

5u3 wrote:

EMM386 is basically the same in all DOS versions. Yes, it puts the CPU in protected mode in order to gain access to high memory. To maintain compatibility to real mode programs, it then runs the whole MS-DOS session in a single virtual 8086 mode task (which is the same method Windows uses for executing DOS programs). Everything would be fine, except that some games do not get along with this kind of arrangement,

I see. So it's more game problems (like Ultima 7 and Serpent Isle) instead of DOS 7.10 problem.

5u3 wrote:

Nice! 😁

Thanks. It may be an overkill to play pure dos games with Pentium 4 CPU, but I plan to dual-boot with Windows 98 to play old Windows games. See, games like Jane's USAF was really a CPU hog the first time it came around. It scored about 25 fps with Voodoo5 AGP... while the freaking Quake 3 Arena could score about 80 fps or such, so I guess it's CPU problems instead of video card. I'd really like to try it with P4! 😁

5u3 wrote:

Yes, for some titles turning off the caches will not be enough,

Whoa, you mean turning off the CPU caches? Should I go to BIOS, or are there utilities (small .EXE, etc) for that purpose?

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

So you play System Shock with MS-DOS 7, without problem?

By the way, what CPU are you using? Is there any known compatibility problems of using newer processor (Pentium 4, etc) with pure DOS? Speed aside, I mean. But speed issues can be handled by slowdown utils, right?

Yeah, I play System Shock without problems.

I have a 233mhz Pentium CPU. Which works perfectly for me. There are games that doesn't like it at all, such as Wing Commander 2, but I play those in DOSBox flawlessy.

The only later DOS game I can think of that doesn't like fast CPUs is Daggerfall. But then again, I haven't really tried many DOS games on fast CPUs. Slowdown utils doesn't really work well with Daggerfall either.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

Whoa, you mean turning off the CPU caches? Should I go to BIOS, or are there utilities (small .EXE, etc) for that purpose?

There are several tools to switch off the L1 cache, however, I'm not so sure about L2. Better use the BIOS settings instead (if that's still possible on a P4 motherboard) 😉

5u3 wrote:

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

Whoa, you mean turning off the CPU caches? Should I go to BIOS, or are there utilities (small .EXE, etc) for that purpose?

There are several tools to switch off the L1 cache, however, I'm not so sure about L2. Better use the BIOS settings instead (if that's still possible on a P4 motherboard) 😉

Gotta' see the manual of my mobo then. I just wonder: are there games that require the L2 cache to be disabled too? And if that's the case, if the mobo doesn't support it, then it's a "compatibility problem", I guess.

There are no (to my knowledge) that REQUIRE any caches to be turned off.

Disabling caches is like running with a 100lb backpack. You have all the power, but you won't get a great performance.

Some games (Jazz Jackrabbit) won't work with high performance processors (like a 350 Mhz Pentium II... at least it was a fast processor when I bought it). Disabling caches MAY allow you to play that games (by the way, you may get a slow down utility and play without disabling caches).

Disabling caches is not required, but can help. But I prefer moslo.

If the CPU is too fast, and you intend to go the BIOS route, I would just slow down the CPU clock (FSB - Front Side Bus).

The advantage of hardware slowdown methods (disabling caches or lowering FSB) in contrast to software slowdown programs is that the hardware methods results in much smoother gameplay. Of course doing it the the hardware way is limited, a P3 with lowest possible FSB and without caches may still be too fast for some games. It's recommended to run such old games with DOSBox.

as for the 629 free conventional memory is not really a big deal. I own PC-DOS 6 and 7 (IBM versions) and from 6 and up, 630kb conventional is no big deal. their HIMEM.SYS can load in UMB without EMM386.
but it lacks fat32 so I don't use it anymore, I use a win98se machine that boots in dos.

I have read at least one account that states that DOS 7.x really is just DOS 6.22 with FAT32 support. This panicking about incompatibility seems unjustified.

It is quite well known that some foreign-language versions of Windows 9x has a bug in HIMEM.SYS that caused it to take up unusual amounts of RAM, but the bug is easily fixable.

in reply to the original post, i believe axel216 is possible, as i have 628kb free after booting msdos 7.10. here are my configs:

1MSDOS.SYS
2;SYS
3[Paths]
4WinDir=C:\WIN9X
5WinBootDir=C:\WIN9X
6HostWinBootDrv=C
7
8[Options]
9AutoScan=1
10BootGUI=0
11BootDelay=0
12BootMulti=1
13DisableLog=1
14DoubleBuffer=0
15Logo=0
16WinVer=4.10.2222
17
18;
19;The following lines are required for compatibility with other programs.
20;Do not remove them (MSDOS.SYS needs to be >1024 bytes).
21;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxa
22;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxb
23;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxc
24;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxd
25;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxe
26;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxf
27;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxg
28;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxh
29;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxi
30;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxj
31;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxk
32;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxl
33;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxm
34;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxn
35;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxo
36;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxp
37;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxq
38;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxr
39;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxs
40;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxt
41;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxu
42;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxv
43;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxw
44;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

1CONFIG.SYS
2;; MS-DOS 7.10 (WINDOWS 98 SE)
3DEVICE=C:\COMMAND\HIMEM.SYS /NUMHANDLES=128 /TESTMEM:OFF /Q
4;; DEVICE=C:\COMMAND\EMM386.EXE AUTO HIGHSCAN RAM NOEMS NOTR I=B000-B7FF A=64 H=128 D=256
5DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOS\UMBPCI.SYS
6;; DEVICEHIGH=C:\COMMAND\RAMDRIVE.SYS 16384 512 1024 /E
7DEVICEHIGH=C:\COMMAND\IFSHLP.SYS
8DEVICEHIGH=C:\COMMAND\ANSI.SYS
9DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOS\VIDE-CDD.SYS /D:CDROM00
10;; DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOS\ESSDOS\ES1868.COM /A:0 /I:0
11devicehigh=c:\dos\aspi.sys
12;; devicehigh=c:\dos\aspicd.sys /D:CDROM00
13INSTALLHIGH=c:\dos\killer.exe
14;; INSTALLHIGH=C:\COMMAND\MSCDEX.EXE /D:CDROM00 /L:Q
15INSTALLHIGH=c:\dos\SHSUCDX.COM /D:CDROM00 /L:Q /V /C
16;; INSTALLHIGH=C:\DOS\SHSUCDX.EXE /D:CDROM00,Q
17INSTALLHIGH=C:\COMMAND\SMARTDRV.EXE 2048 16
18INSTALLHIGH=C:\DOS\XMSDSK.EXE 8192 U: /Y /T /C1
19INSTALLHIGH=C:\DOS\CTMOUSE.EXE /R55
20INSTALLHIGH=C:\DOS\DOSKEY.COM -I
21;; INSTALLHIGH=C:\COMMAND\SUBST.EXE M: D:\CDWIN
22SHELL=C:\COMMAND.COM C:\ /E:1024 /P /F /Z
23DOS=HIGH,UMB,AUTO
24FILESHIGH=128
25BUFFERSHIGH=16
26FCBSHIGH=1,0
27STACKSHIGH=0,0
28SWITCHES=/F
29LASTDRIVE=Z
30NUMLOCK=ON
31set distro=MS Windows 98 SE
32set author=tikbalang at yahoo dot com
33set prompt=$P$G
34set dircmd=/4
35set TZ=GMT+8
36set temp=u:\temp
37set tmp=u:\temp
38set cache=u:\cache
39set APPDATA=c:\win9x\applic~1
40;; set BLASTER=A220 I5 D0 H0 REC3 P330 T6
41set bcom=c:\bcom
42;; set comm=/b115200 /com2 /irq3 /n81 /h2
43set path=c:\dos;c:\command;c:\cmd32;c:\bcom;c:\win9x;c:\win9x\command

1AUTOEXEC.BAT
2:: MS-DOS 7.10 (Windows 98 SE)
3@ECHO OFF
4BREAK ON
5VERIFY ON
6if "%OS%"=="Windows_NT" goto NT
7if not exist %temp%\nul md %temp% > nul
8if not exist %cache%\nul md %cache% > nul
9if not exist %cache%\headers\nul md %cache%\headers > nul
10echo.
11echo %distro%
12echo %author%
13c:\
14:: c:\dos\xmsdsk.exe /y /t /c1 16384
15:: LH c:\dos\findramd.exe > nul
16:: LH C:\DOS\MFINIT.EXE c:\dos
17LH C:\DOS\ESSDOS\ESSCFG.EXE /A:220 /I:5 /D:1 /E:0 /B:330 /J:E
18:: LH C:\DOS\ESSDOS\ESSVOL.EXE /V:8 /L:8 /W:8 /M:8 /C:8 /S:8 /A:8
19LH c:\dos\mi.com > nul
20u:\
21c:\dos\greet.com
22ver /r
23:NT
24echo.

results of MEM.EXE:

1Memory Type        Total       Used       Free
2----------------  --------   --------   --------
3Conventional          640K        12K       628K
4Upper                 128K        93K        35K
5Reserved              384K       384K         0K
6Extended (XMS)     64,384K    10,180K    54,204K
7----------------  --------   --------   --------
8Total memory       65,536K    10,669K    54,867K
9
10Total under 1 MB      768K       105K       663K
11
12Largest executable program size       628K (643,056 bytes)  
13Largest free upper memory block        32K  (33,200 bytes)  
14MS-DOS is resident in the high memory area.

results of MI.COM (from pctools v9.0):

1Memory Info V9.0 (c)1993 Central Point Software, Inc.
2
3        Total bytes owned
4Addr.  Low area  High area   Program or device driver
5-----  --------  ---------  --------------------------
6020Fh    1,024        ..     IFS=O.SYS
70250h    1,104        ..     Device=HIMEM     Attr=A000h  Name=XMSXXXX0
80296h      160        ..     Device=UMBPCI    Attr=E000h  Name=UMBPCIXX
902A1h      544        ..     IFS=--------
100300h  643,056        ..     <largest free area>
11 ---- Begin High (Upper) Memory ----
12CC14h      ..       3,312    CTMOUSE  
13CCE4h      ..      10,672    COMMAND   
14D402h      ..       2,848    Device=IFSHLP    Attr=D000h  Name=IFS$HLP$
15D4B5h      ..       4,304    Device=ANSI      Attr=C053h  Name=CON     
16D5C3h      ..       5,008    Device=VIDE-CDD  Attr=C800h  Name=CDROM00 
17D6FDh      ..      18,896    Device=ASPI      Attr=C800h  Name=SCSIMGR$
18DB9Bh      ..         608    IFS=
19DE1Fh      ..         384    KILLER   
20DE38h      ..       5,856    SHSUCDX  
21DFA7h      ..      29,104    SMARTDRV  2048 16
22E6C3h      ..         672    XMSDSK   
23E6EEh      ..       3,952    DOSKEY   
24
25655,360 bytes (640k) total DOS 7.10 conventional memory.  
26643,056 bytes (628k) largest executable program.  33,184 bytes if loaded high.
27
28High memory is managed by DOS.
29
30     0  bytes Extended (AT/286/386) memory, reported by BIOS.
3164,448k bytes XMS 3.0 (3.65) memory: 10,244k used + 54,204k free.  DOS in HMA.

and YES, msdos v7.10 is very compatible with older versions. just use setver if you have to. i don't.

The only DOS version that is a memory hog is MS-Dos-8 which built himem.sys into io.sys.
MS-DOS 7.1 is the same as Dos 6.22 memory wise, it depends entirely on your config.sys and Autoexec.bat. with the advantage that it supports FAT32 disks and upto 4GB of system RAM with himem.sys.

I have yet to come across a game that would not run under realmode DOS-7.1(out of thousands of games tried over the last 10 years). Along with MS-DOS 6.22 it is still the 'standard' for compatibilty, more compatible than FreeDos and any other Dos version. Hopefully FreeDOS will catch up.

The other problem is new harware, I recently got a new system and Win98/se will not run on the newer Intel 965P boards and PCI express graphic cards but DOS7.1 works fine.

intel 965P board,
SBLIVE! PCI (dos drivers)
2.3ghz core 2 duo
2GB DDR2 ram
GF7900GS card (has a vesa 3 bios)

Relamode DOS7.1 sees the 2GB ram(with himem.sys loaded), sound works with the sblive dos drivers. System shock works fine, Star-trek final unity works with sound. This new hardware won't even boot into win95/98/me.

Looking at my old notes, I had a problem where DOS 7.1 with "DOS=NOAUTO" caused the size of DOS in memory to be much larger than expected. My guess at this late date, without experimenting, is that with DOS=NOAUTO it doesn't automatically load files or buffers high, and ends up having to load something in conventional memory that it otherwise wouldn't need to, and that it wouldn't need to load at all in 6.22. (Maybe the Windows startup screen?)