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Is it worth it to build a 486 66 or 133 machine using VLB vs SOcket 7 with level 1 and 2 disabled?

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Reply 60 of 78, by bloodem

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To answer the question in the title, based on my experience, no, there's no point in having a separate 486 machine, if you already own a (Super) Socket 7 PC.
Now, there is a lot of nuance to this: not all (Super) Socket 7 PCs are equal: some are much better than others, some have all sorts of small quirks (i.e. Lion King stutters on all the Ali Aladdin V boards that I've tried), but this is still nothing compared to the issues that you can face with 486 motherboards.

Now... if we're going down that rabbit hole, I should mention that, for most people, a Socket A KT400/KT600/KT880 PC & Athlon XP Thoroughbred with an unlocked multiplier (or even a late Barton with a locked multiplier, which is surprisingly flexible) is probably the only PC they will ever need for both DOS & Windows 98 gaming. Pair that with a SB Live/Audigy/Audigy 2 for Windows and a Yamaha YMF724 for DOS and you've got yourself an awesome PC that can play perfectly most games that were released between 1985 - 2001. As always, there will be a few that won't work (the Yamaha YMF724 DSDMA TSR requires an expanded memory manager, and a few titles don't work with it), but 98% of games will work just fine (some much better than on period correct hardware).

Of course, if you're one of the (few) people that really want to have all the period-correct bells and whistles (which, for DOS, requires at least 2 - 3 ISA slots), you probably need to stick to Socket 7.

4 x Socket 3 / 4 x Socket 7 / 6 x Super Socket 7 / 5 x Slot 1 / 3 x Slot A / 5 x Socket 370
3 x Socket A / 1 x Socket 478 / 2 x Socket 754 / 3 x Socket 939 / 4 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current rig: AM4 - Ryzen 5 3600X
Backup rig: LGA1151 - Core i7 7700k

Reply 61 of 78, by xcomcmdr

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I just could not stand a guy saying DOSBox sucks, putting words into people's mouth, and being really agresssive over all.
DOSBox is a wonderful achievement.
And it always has 640 Ko of conventional memory. I have and love real hardware, but even a the time I was fed up with that mess.
Amiga was so much better. :p

Reply 62 of 78, by chinny22

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Jed118 wrote on 2021-03-25, 01:33:

CIrrus Logic - I've not heard good things. However, I have a Blue Lighting AND a Siemens with integrated ones. I'm also picking up a Tseng VLB and just got a Mach32, so I'll be doing a benchmark between them. Soon. Ish.

Yeh I didn't really think twice about them till picking up the 486 that had it onboard and was presently surprised.
Phils already done some benchmarks, (I've skipped straight to the graph)
https://youtu.be/gDCCBYhvGWw?t=877

Their compatibility isn't bad either, it's not great but still better then the Mach64 (which is what I had back in the 90's)
https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/

I guess it's because they were only even mid tier which dropped down to low end for PCI that the have an average reputation.

Unrealcpu wrote on 2021-03-25, 02:11:

Nice thanks for the input. I have a new found addiction to collecting old hardware 🤣

Yep, its so easily done. The question changes from is it worth building xyz, to how do I justify to myself I need yet another build 😉

Reply 63 of 78, by bloodem

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chinny22 wrote on 2021-03-25, 10:53:

The question changes from is it worth building xyz, to how do I justify to myself I need yet another build 😉

Which eventually becomes: "You know what? I don't need to justify myself... to myself for anything! MOOAAR!" 😀

4 x Socket 3 / 4 x Socket 7 / 6 x Super Socket 7 / 5 x Slot 1 / 3 x Slot A / 5 x Socket 370
3 x Socket A / 1 x Socket 478 / 2 x Socket 754 / 3 x Socket 939 / 4 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current rig: AM4 - Ryzen 5 3600X
Backup rig: LGA1151 - Core i7 7700k

Reply 64 of 78, by willow

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xcomcmdr wrote on 2021-03-25, 08:57:
I just could not stand a guy saying DOSBox sucks, putting words into people's mouth, and being really agresssive over all. DOSBo […]
Show full quote

I just could not stand a guy saying DOSBox sucks, putting words into people's mouth, and being really agresssive over all.
DOSBox is a wonderful achievement.
And it always has 640 Ko of conventional memory. I have and love real hardware, but even a the time I was fed up with that mess.
Amiga was so much better. :p

I Think that unrealcpu has said dosbox sucks because you have arrived just to troll it with dosbox.

Dosbox is a wonderful achievement but it's off-topic here with the question of unrealcpu.

Reply 66 of 78, by gaffa2002

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Sorry, but I couldn’t resist entering the debate .
In my opinion, there is no such thing as 100% accuracy when we are talking about old computers: Seriously, there are MILLIONS of combinations between motherboards, sound cards, videocards, operating systems, drivers, software version, monitors, resolutions, refresh rates, color depths..
For me there is no such thing as “playing as intended” when we are talking about older PC games, the main reason (which is quickly becoming the only reason) for using actual hardware is to have fun playing with it. Which makes it very hard to judge if its worth to have a 486 vs Socket 7 without at least knowing what the OP wants to run on it.

LO-RES, HI-FUN

My DOS/ Win98 PC specs

EP-7KXA Motherboard
Athlon Thunderbird 750mhz
256Mb PC100 RAM
Geforce 4 MX440 64MB AGP
Sound Blaster AWE 64 CT4500 (ISA)
32GB HDD

Reply 67 of 78, by Unrealcpu

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bloodem wrote on 2021-03-25, 08:12:
To answer the question in the title, based on my experience, no, there's no point in having a separate 486 machine, if you alrea […]
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To answer the question in the title, based on my experience, no, there's no point in having a separate 486 machine, if you already own a (Super) Socket 7 PC.
Now, there is a lot of nuance to this: not all (Super) Socket 7 PCs are equal: some are much better than others, some have all sorts of small quirks (i.e. Lion King stutters on all the Ali Aladdin V boards that I've tried), but this is still nothing compared to the issues that you can face with 486 motherboards.

Now... if we're going down that rabbit hole, I should mention that, for most people, a Socket A KT400/KT600/KT880 PC & Athlon XP Thoroughbred with an unlocked multiplier (or even a late Barton with a locked multiplier, which is surprisingly flexible) is probably the only PC they will ever need for both DOS & Windows 98 gaming. Pair that with a SB Live/Audigy/Audigy 2 for Windows and a Yamaha YMF724 for DOS and you've got yourself an awesome PC that can play perfectly most games that were released between 1985 - 2001. As always, there will be a few that won't work (the Yamaha YMF724 DSDMA TSR requires an expanded memory manager, and a few titles don't work with it), but 98% of games will work just fine (some much better than on period correct hardware).

Of course, if you're one of the (few) people that really want to have all the period-correct bells and whistles (which, for DOS, requires at least 2 - 3 ISA slots), you probably need to stick to Socket 7.

Just because you mentioned Windows 98/socket A , and late windows 98 games i decided to add these to my collection hehe

also EVGA yesterday had 450watt PSUs on sale for 19.99 shipped ,, could not pass up my goal of building more Dos/win98se/XP machines

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Reply 68 of 78, by Unrealcpu

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willow wrote on 2021-03-25, 16:42:
xcomcmdr wrote on 2021-03-25, 08:57:
I just could not stand a guy saying DOSBox sucks, putting words into people's mouth, and being really agresssive over all. DOSBo […]
Show full quote

I just could not stand a guy saying DOSBox sucks, putting words into people's mouth, and being really agresssive over all.
DOSBox is a wonderful achievement.
And it always has 640 Ko of conventional memory. I have and love real hardware, but even a the time I was fed up with that mess.
Amiga was so much better. :p

I Think that unrealcpu has said dosbox sucks because you have arrived just to troll it with dosbox.

Dosbox is a wonderful achievement but it's off-topic here with the question of unrealcpu.

I have tried exo dos and yes it is convenient to load up manuals right there on the desktop but to me something is not right with the timing and sound when the game plays. I almost died when i heard the crappy music/sound emulated in dos box MT-32 in Ultima 6
here is my computer with my CT1740 real hardware
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVmdwf9AMyk

just for giggles , listen to pure goodness of the MT-32 horn and instruments

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVSer3caOxo&t=12s

Reply 69 of 78, by Malik

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xcomcmdr wrote on 2021-03-25, 16:49:

For me the troll is the one who arrives and says DOSBox sucks and who is very agressive and changes the goal post, etc...

But whatever.

Yes, I too couldn't stomach the arrogance of his wordings.

I guess ignorance is bliss.

I too came from the days of using PCs since XT 8086. I have fondness for all the DOS era machines. I've built a few different 486s, Pentium, Pentium II and Pentoum III machines after started working and got all the hardware I ever dreamt of when I was a kid including the Voodoo cards including Voodoo5, LAPC-I, SC-55 and CM-500. But once you have finished building your dream machines, there's nothing much to do.

As much as I love tinkering with old hardware, Dosbox just replaced everything. It's much simpler to just run the games. Without the added wires, heat, and you won't need to be confined to a room to play your classics. But it's there when I want to continue running games on the original hardware.

Even now, I still have my 486, Pentium 133 and my flexible unlocked P2 400MHz machines. I have a separate setup for running all DOS Flight Sims with complete with CH Products HOTAS.

Even a lowly laptop can play Dosbox with MUNT anytime anywhere. Once MUNT arrived I even sold off 3 of the LAPC-I I collected and 2 CM-500s over the yearson eBay. Yes, MUNT is THAT good for CM-32L/MT-32 emulations.

I have Dosbox with MUNT installed on each and every laptops and desktop that I have.

Even Steam and GOG use it to sell their games.

Dosbox is a marvelous piece of programming meant to keep the golden DOS era alive. Anywhere and anytime. I even have Dosbox with MUNT installed in my laptop that I use at workplace. Without the need to lug around the big PC parts, components and wires and whatnot wherever I go.

Generally I don't like detailing a topic, but rhe ttopic was derailed by first flaming on Dosbox itself.

Maybe the OP doesn't know that this Vogons site was started actually as a tech help site for helping Very Old Games On New Systems. That is DOSBOX. Yes, this website is administered by the creator of Dosbox. I hope you know who he is.

Saying that Dosbox sucks reflects on one's ignorance, arrogance and stupidity.

5476332566_7480a12517_t.jpgSB Dos Drivers

Reply 70 of 78, by Unrealcpu

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Malik wrote on 2021-03-26, 01:01:
Yes, I too couldn't stomach the arrogance of his wordings. […]
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xcomcmdr wrote on 2021-03-25, 16:49:

For me the troll is the one who arrives and says DOSBox sucks and who is very agressive and changes the goal post, etc...

But whatever.

Yes, I too couldn't stomach the arrogance of his wordings.

I guess ignorance is bliss.

I too came from the days of using PCs since XT 8086. I have fondness for all the DOS era machines. I've built a few different 486s, Pentium, Pentium II and Pentoum III machines after started working and got all the hardware I ever dreamt of when I was a kid including the Voodoo cards including Voodoo5, LAPC-I, SC-55 and CM-500. But once you have finished building your dream machines, there's nothing much to do.

As much as I love tinkering with old hardware, Dosbox just replaced everything. It's much simpler to just run the games. Without the added wires, heat, and you won't need to be confined to a room to play your classics. But it's there when I want to continue running games on the original hardware.

Even now, I still have my 486, Pentium 133 and my flexible unlocked P2 400MHz machines. I have a separate setup for running all DOS Flight Sims with complete with CH Products HOTAS.

Even a lowly laptop can play Dosbox with MUNT anytime anywhere. Once MUNT arrived I even sold off 3 of the LAPC-I I collected and 2 CM-500s over the yearson eBay. Yes, MUNT is THAT good for CM-32L/MT-32 emulations.

I have Dosbox with MUNT installed on each and every laptops and desktop that I have.

Even Steam and GOG use it to sell their games.

Dosbox is a marvelous piece of programming meant to keep the golden DOS era alive. Anywhere and anytime. I even have Dosbox with MUNT installed in my laptop that I use at workplace. Without the need to lug around the big PC parts, components and wires and whatnot wherever I go.

Generally I don't like detailing a topic, but rhe ttopic was derailed by first flaming on Dosbox itself.

Maybe the OP doesn't know that this Vogons site was started actually as a tech help site for helping Very Old Games On New Systems. That is DOSBOX. Yes, this website is administered by the creator of Dosbox. I hope you know who he is.

Saying that Dosbox sucks reflects on one's ignorance, arrogance and stupidity.

I am glad you found a friend and come on here with your arrogant attitude and stupidity why you think DOSBOX is so convenient. Since you are trying to derail this thread once again with your so called life story by telling us a full novel of your so called parts that you have owned throughout your life to prove you are correct about DOSBOX is pretty much hilarious. I guess since you are from Malaysia and you live in tiny apartments there that can barely fit a bed , table, and maybe a single desktop computer I could not agree more DOSBOX suits you. Seeing how you are comparing MUNT to a real MT-32 is quite hilarious and maybe you could also explain why a real MT-32 since MUNT is so perfect and still fetches TOP DOLLAR on EBay?
Is English your second language bro? Because I am sure I made it clear I could not care less for DOSBOX and did not want to hear about it. I have messed with DOSBOX /EXODOS ETC. It is great but I am a real hardware purist and this generally what VOGONs is about and what real hardware enthusiast strive to learn more about.

BTW Emulation will never be perfect due to lag, sound issues, stuttering, timing issues and overall accuracy.

So please good luck with your laptop and dosbox and go on a different thread with your insults and troll comments

Reply 71 of 78, by gaffa2002

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For someone who apparently speaks English as first language, you sure have problems understanding what you are reading and writing here.
Please, If you want more specific answers, first learn how to write a proper question and act like a civilized adult.

LO-RES, HI-FUN

My DOS/ Win98 PC specs

EP-7KXA Motherboard
Athlon Thunderbird 750mhz
256Mb PC100 RAM
Geforce 4 MX440 64MB AGP
Sound Blaster AWE 64 CT4500 (ISA)
32GB HDD

Reply 72 of 78, by Unrealcpu

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gaffa2002 wrote on 2021-03-26, 02:34:

For someone who apparently speaks English as first language, you sure have problems understanding what you are reading and writing here.
Please, If you want more specific answers, first learn how to write a proper question and act like a civilized adult.

Funny you are from Brazil ,go troll somewhere else.
Acting like a civilized adult huh? Elaborate. i guess I need to translate it to Portuguese since you are confused

Reply 73 of 78, by Snover

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The tenor of the last several posts is completely inappropriate for VOGONS. Please review the community guidelines before continuing to post here. If you feel like a community member is acting in bad faith, please engage them by asking clarifying questions, because you may just have misunderstood what they are saying. If you can’t do that, you are welcome to flag their posts. Calling other members “nutjob” or “idiot” or “arrogant” or “troll” is not OK. Insulting other people and making discriminatory statements about nationalities is not OK. Telling other members to shut up is not OK. Turning threads into flamewars destroys the ability to have healthy conversations, and eventually it destroys the ability to have a healthy community. Please be aware of the consequences of your actions for the entire community and do not turn this site into a toxic and unwelcoming place. Remember that everyone who participates here is interested in the same things. Focus on the mutual interests of the community. Different opinions can be welcomed with curiosity, disagreement, debate, and constructive criticism, but not personal attacks or harassment.

Last edited by Snover on 2021-03-26, 03:22. Edited 1 time in total.

Yes, it’s my fault.

Reply 74 of 78, by Unrealcpu

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gaffa2002 wrote on 2021-03-25, 17:36:

Sorry, but I couldn’t resist entering the debate .
In my opinion, there is no such thing as 100% accuracy when we are talking about old computers: Seriously, there are MILLIONS of combinations between motherboards, sound cards, videocards, operating systems, drivers, software version, monitors, resolutions, refresh rates, color depths..
For me there is no such thing as “playing as intended” when we are talking about older PC games, the main reason (which is quickly becoming the only reason) for using actual hardware is to have fun playing with it. Which makes it very hard to judge if its worth to have a 486 vs Socket 7 without at least knowing what the OP wants to run on it.

No apology needed it would seem you are uneducated since you seem to believe there are MILLIONS of combinations between components to run DOS games. Have you ever watched phils computer lab to correctly run classic DOS games from 91-95+ in order to build time period 100% accuracy machines?

Well I guess if you are still confused I will be happy to provide you with a link. This is not trivial science here and my simple question was answered

Reply 75 of 78, by gaffa2002

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Phill’s videos are very good as he is well aware of the CONTEXT of each experiment he does. Never seen he saying that something “sucks” without contextualization (i.e. by comparing between an specific set of devices), plus he is always aware of different kinds of users and objectives for each build (never seen he offending any group or nationality).
Or in other words: You are not understanding the videos you watch (and even worse... has the nerve to attempt lecturing people who clearly know far more than you).

LO-RES, HI-FUN

My DOS/ Win98 PC specs

EP-7KXA Motherboard
Athlon Thunderbird 750mhz
256Mb PC100 RAM
Geforce 4 MX440 64MB AGP
Sound Blaster AWE 64 CT4500 (ISA)
32GB HDD

Reply 77 of 78, by gaffa2002

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Snover wrote on 2021-03-26, 03:02:

The tenor of the last several posts is completely inappropriate for VOGONS. Please review the community guidelines before continuing to post here. If you feel like a community member is acting in bad faith, please engage them by asking clarifying questions, because you may just have misunderstood what they are saying. If you can’t do that, you are welcome to flag their posts. Calling other members “nutjob” or “idiot” or “arrogant” or “troll” is not OK. Insulting other people and making discriminatory statements about nationalities is not OK. Telling other members to shut up is not OK. Turning threads into flamewars destroys the ability to have healthy conversations, and eventually it destroys the ability to have a healthy community. Please be aware of the consequences of your actions for the entire community and do not turn this site into a toxic and unwelcoming place. Remember that everyone who participates here is interested in the same things. Focus on the mutual interests of the community. Different opinions can be welcomed with curiosity, disagreement, debate, and constructive criticism, but not personal attacks or harassment.

I understand your points and was aware of the risks, but this wasn't a trivial discussion about opinions, it was someone propagating intolerant comments on other people's nationalities.
We need to face the facts here, some countries are in better position than others due to many different reasons (including historical exploitation from "better" countries). I don't know which country you are from, but this kind of attack is very common and usually directed to people from South American and Asian countries.
From a forum perspective, the simpler solution is to just silently flag and block users that do such comments and then the moderator shows up later saying that "everyone is wrong" and the thread is locked. But in cases like this if everyone did just that then we will always see the point of view of the intolerant, even worse, this point of view will be justified when a moderator shows up putting the attacker and the attacked on the same boat as troublemakers, like calling someone childish/arrogant/rude has the same weight as being xenophobic.
Since it wasn't about technical opinions anymore and intolerant comments started showing up, I felt obligated to respond just to give the intolerant some push back and to show people that might think like him that they can't just write whatever they want without consequences aside of receiving a discrete warning.

Please keep in mind I'm not discussing if I'm right or wrong (as per the forum rules, I'm clearly wrong), just wanted to explain why I did respond and why I will respond again if I see any kind of xenophobic/racist/sexist/homophobic posts.

Best Regards

PS: Wanted to send you a PM, but your user blocked it so I had to put it here.

LO-RES, HI-FUN

My DOS/ Win98 PC specs

EP-7KXA Motherboard
Athlon Thunderbird 750mhz
256Mb PC100 RAM
Geforce 4 MX440 64MB AGP
Sound Blaster AWE 64 CT4500 (ISA)
32GB HDD

Reply 78 of 78, by vetz

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gaffa2000, I see your point, but its better for the thread and forum if you use the report function and don't engage as it will only feed the troll. More severe action than just a discrete warning has been taken here.

The thread has run its course, so I think it's best to close it. If you have any feedback, please send a PM.

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