System 1: DOS/Win98SE non-emulation box […]
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System 1: DOS/Win98SE non-emulation box

Pentium III 733 MHz Slot-1 (with a Pentium II 233 Mhz to slot in for VERY old DOS titles)
A Intel 440 BX-based motherboard with two ISA slots
512MB PC133 SDRAM
Nvidia RIVA TNT 16MB AGP
3DFX Voodoo1 4MB
Sound Blaster 16 ASP ISA card

The thought behind this system was to provide the maximum flexability in being able to switch between DOS and Windows 98SE without having to resort to any kind of emulation in order to get a game to run. Based upon what research I've found the general thoughts were that as long as the CPU could be kept within the 200 to 233Mhz range that the use of slowdown applications, such as moslo, could be reduced or eliminated. The video card selection was based upon the ideal cards that would give maximum VESA compatibility for DOS titles as well as 3D support in both DOS and Windows. The complicated part was the sound card selection since there were a LOT of different ideas on what would be optimal. In the end, somewhat limited by motherboard selection that would support Coppermine P3's, I was able to compromise by slotting a SB 16 ASP, which can be supplemented with a Roland or Yamaha MIDI daughterboard, and leaving the last slot open for another ISA sound card and/or MIDI board.

One of the things about old processors is that you should be able to underclock them. Instead of using a 100MHz bus speed, use a 66MHz bus speed for a 1/3 clock speed decrease. Most processors will tolerate an increase in the bus speed to 133MHz on a BX chipset. If we use a slot 1 PIII 800MHz, we can descrease it to 528MHz or increase it to 1.064GHz. Assuming the multiplier is locked upwards but not downwards, we can usually go as low as 133MHz.

One ISA slot is absolutely essential for any retro PC system. It is necessary for a Creative Sound Blaster. Personally, I would advise sticking with a Sound Blaster 16 CT-1740. The ASP chip is not very useful, it is more important that the DSP be V4.05. Later Sound Blaster 16s have their own problems. A second slot is useful if you have a Roland SCC-1 or Roland MPU-401AT + SCB-55 combo. But for games running on a system this advanced, a third slot is largely superfluous.

I do not like to use the SCB-55 with a Sound Blaster 16. In my opinion, the sound output of the daughter board is not as good as it is on an MPU-401AT or similar card.

System 2: Win98SE/DOSBOX system […]
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System 2: Win98SE/DOSBOX system

Intel Pentium III 866 MHz
Intel 810 chipset motherboard with 1 AGP and 3 PCI slots
512MB PC133 SDRAM
Nvidia GeForce 3 64MB AGP
3DFX Voodoo2 12MB
Aureal Vortex2 SQ2500 Quad

The idea behind this system, obviously, was to provide the maximum compatibility for Windows-based titles while providing an optimal platform for the use of DOSBOX or other third-party applications for DOS gaming. The one part that was difficult was, yet again, sound card selection. I first was considering a SB Live! but, after reading that the SQ2500 Quad had a wavetable connector as well as good DOS support it seemed like a no-brainer IMHO.

Now, a lot of this was limited by the several boxes of spare parts I managed to cobble together from gutting a lot of old PC systems that were being retired from our office. However, some of them I managed to find on the cheap at a nearby surplus center on the cheap.

Some caveats about the SQ2500:

1. Its FM Synthesis capabilities are of the emulated variety, and it isn't a very good emulation.
2. Its Sound Blaster emulation only emulates the Sound Blaster Pro, not the 16.
3. There are two revisions of this board, Revision A and Revision B. Its the revision B with the more advanced processor that separates it from all the other cards with the same chip.

Also, you may want a faster processor for DOSBox. I'm not sure 866MHz will be sufficient to run Doom appropriately.

Great Hierophant,

Re: System 1

Was not aware you could underclock like that without hurting the CPU. As it stands 'tho the 233 and 266Mhz slot-1 CPU's were pretty plentiful and you can not beat free. ^__^

The Sound Blaster 16's I found are marked as CT-1740's but have, at least what I think is, the ASP module soldered on versus the modular configuration. After coming across your sound card guide, and comparing notes with other posts here, I made an extra-special effort to ensure that ALL of the ISA cards I found were either of the CT-1740 or CT-1750 variety. In fact, here is an image of the card:

http://www.yjfy.com/images/oldhard/sound/ct1740_asp.jpg

I used a printout of your guide, plus pictures from www.yjfy.com, as a guide and dug thru at least 20 different boxes stacked full of ISA cards to grab every one I could find. ^__^ I do hope these are the right ones you mentioned?

Re: System 2

I know there are definatly some weaknesses for the SQ2500 but it was the only PCI sound card I could locate in the boxes I had that had a wavetable connector to allow for use of a MIDI daughterboard. This, combined with the fact it is a vortex-based card, was the best compromise I could think of short of putting a Yamaha XG YMF724F-based sound card, which I was able to get a few of, in which did not appear to have any kind of wavetable connector. The only other PCI sound card, based upon data I could find, that also had a wavetable connector was the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz but could not locate any in the boxes I was taking apart.

I would have put a faster CPU in these systems but, sadly, the 866MHz was the fastest one I had on-hand. However, these boards will support up to a Pentium III 1ghz so it is an option if I can trade some of the other components that I will have left over for a few. Unless you think a 933MHz would do well instead?

where can one see the dsp ver of a sb16???
I have a ct2980 and a HP (I think) ct2970... they both have a big ct2502-sqd chip and a small ct1978-tap one...
now I use the 2970 (that does not have an IDE interface) but it has 2 weird rows of pins... one is called GOLD_FINCH and the other HP_FRONT_PANEL ... what the hell are these? front_panel is ovious, but gold_finch???

edit: also what is the mb_pro connector???
I found that the diagnose utility reports the dsp ver... both are v4.13 ... is that bad?

edit²: I found more about that gold_finch :

1On soundcards, I just got a great deal from compgeeks, I bought 2 PnP Soundblaster 16s at $14 each and a "Gold_Finch" upgrade board for each for $0.95, now I didn't know much about these, Compgeeks weren't sure which card they worked with so I gambled on them,  and Creative Labs don't seem to refer to them on site, but now I have them I am really happy, they are an additional ISA card that connects to a soundblaster 16 with a "Gold_Finch" connector, which is basically an auxilliary input, so these may work with other SB cards if you modify the connections, anyway, they turn your SB16 into a SB32 AWE. You need to put a couple of 30 Pin SIMMS on them for the user wave table otherwise you just have generic SB32. Anyway, the solution takes up 2 ISA slots but you get an AWE 32 for $15, maybe just 95c if you already have an SB 16, definitely worth checking out.
2[...]
3Note, this in NOT a wavetable upgrade board that sits on the card, but a seperate ISA card that connects to audio inputs on the SB16 labelled "Gold_Finch"

Keropi,

Let me take your questions in order:

1. Where can one see the dsp ver of a sb16?

This I honestly am not sure of but I used this paragraph that the Great Hierophant made to sort thru many boxes of SB16's to get the right ones:

"In terms of compatibility, I would stick with an early, non PnP Sound Blaster 16 with the following important chips: a YAC512 (OPL3 DAC), YMF-262 (OPL3), CT1745 (mixer), CT1701 (codec), CT1746 (bus interface), CT1741 (DSP). (The ASP is CT1748 and a socket is included on most Sound Blaster 16's with the other chips mentioned.) The CT-1740, 1750 and 1770 are the earliest cards and all have these chips. These cards are common enough that you can cheaply replace them should they have problems. Then you can add the AWE32 upgrade card should you want that functionality. In fact, I think the combo is best for later DOS games. Add a Gravis Ultrasound or Ultrasound Ace and a Roland MPU-401AT + SCB-55 and put a Yamaha DB-50XG on the Sound Blaster 16 and you would have an incredible sound subsystem."

2. What is a Goldfinch?

That would be one of these:

Image - http://www.yjfy.com/images/oldhard/sound/ct1920.jpg

Auction - http://cgi.ebay.com/Creative-Labs-EMU8000-MID … 1QQcmdZViewItem

Basically, it is an upgrade board for the model of Sound Blaster 16 that you have that, essentially, turns your SB 16 into a SB AWE32 by adding some chips. Here is a paragraph I found that sums it all up:

"Turn your Sound Blaster 16 Sound Card into a Sound Blaster 32 or AWE32 with the Creative Labs Goldfinch (CT-1920/3) upgrade board! This card utilizes EMU8000-based Wavetable technology to generate real instrument sounds, rather than synthesized sounds, for playback of audio in multimedia and music applications. The EMU8000 technology generates special digital effects such as chorus, reverb, delay and pan to provide an even fuller multimedia experience. New technology features included are Creative's 3D Stereo Enhancement that produces a richer, more spacious sound, and the capability to upgrade to Creative's SoundFont technology and E-mu's 3D Positional Audio that immerses the user in a more realistic 3D sound environment."

The trick about the Goldfinch is that it was not made to work with standard Sound Blaster 16s but the less-compatible Vibra 16's, especially those on the motherboard. The header on the Goldfinch board is not made to connect with the SB16's, but can be made to do so. I do not know of the pinout for the Goldfinch, but trial and error should work just fine.

If you can get the Goldfinch working with the ordinary Sound Blaster 16s, you would have, in my opinion, the best "AWE32" available. While it will cost an extra slot, you still have true OPL3, a waveblaster header and the good mixer, something no AWE32 or SB32 can boast. Also, while the non-PnP AWE32, CT-2760, does have most of the Sound Blaster 16 chips, it still has an OPL3 clone and buggy DSPs v4.11-4.13.

I would shy away from the Sound Blaster 16 SCSI-2 in future, only for the fact it uses an IRQ for the SCSI interface, which I don't need. The CD interfaces on the Sound Blaster 16 Multi-CD, CT-1750, can be disabled and the CD interface on the vanilla Sound Blaster 16 CT-1740 does not use an extra IRQ. But the most important thing you should look for in any Sound Blaster 16 is the DSP revision. This will be found on the CT-1741 chip and really should be a V4.05. Anything else will give you buggy midi.

pjladyfox wrote:

1. Where can one see the dsp ver of a sb16?

Here is a utility to give you information about SoundBlaster Audio adapters. It is called SBCHECK.EXE version 3.00 from Intersteller Research - it will give the DSP version along with other SB hardware information.

Hope this helps,

dvwjr

Using the feedback received so far here are some slight revisions:

System 1: DOS/Win98SE non-emulation box

Pentium III 733 MHz Slot-1 (with a Pentium II 233 Mhz to slot in for VERY old DOS titles)
A Intel 440 BX-based motherboard with two ISA slots
512MB PC133 SDRAM
Nvidia RIVA TNT 16MB AGP
3DFX Voodoo1 4MB
Aureal Vortex2 AU8830 SQ2500 Quad (Revision B), Aureal Vortex2 AU8830A2 SQ2500 Quad Optical, a YMF724-based card, or a YMF744-based card
Sound Blaster 16 ISA card (CT1740)

System 2: Win98SE/DOSBOX system

Intel Pentium III 1 GHz
Intel 810 chipset motherboard with 1 AGP and 3 PCI slots
512MB PC133 SDRAM
Nvidia GeForce 3 64MB AGP
3DFX Voodoo2 12MB
Aureal Vortex2 AU8830 SQ2500 Quad (Revision B), Aureal Vortex2 AU8830A2 SQ2500 Quad Optical, a YMF724-based card, or a YMF744-based card

Between these two systems they should be able to run just about any DOS and/or early Windows 9x era title thrown at them while still allowing some room for improvement either by the addition of a daughterboard or additional ISA sound card. In the case of the second system you even have the added benefit of installing it into a SFF system to save on space.

I just wish there was a SFF motherboard, either socket 370 or slot-1, that had an AGP 2x, 2 PCI, and one ISA slot. Now THAT would be a system that would be fun to have. ^__^

I'm also kicking around ideas for making a FAQ to post that compiles all of the information on this. Kinda like a one-stop shop for your retro PC gaming needs.

Thoughts?

That second system of yours seems very much like the first system. When it comes to a DOSBox system, no single processor is too fast for a system. Even the lastest Intel Core Duos will certainly meet their match with games based on the Blood engine. That second system shouldn't have a problem running any game that uses a 320x200 resolution in DOSBox, but will certainly choke oin games that support higher resolutions.

Great Hierophant,

*sigh* I know but it honestly was the best I could put together from the parts I have managed to salvage from our last company hardware upgrade. -_-

I did have a question for you 'tho. My understanding, at least from what research I've done, is that PCI = SUX0rz for any kind of DOS (read: not in a Window nor DOS window) gaming due to the emulation and lack of "true" DOS and/or SB16 support. However, it has been said that the Aureal2 AU8830 and Yamaha YMF724/YMF744-based cards are the best based upon the Compromises made. Do you agree or is there a different PCI-based card that, even taking into account the weaknesses, that you feel would be a more suitable choice?

The only reason I ask, at least you in particular, is you seem to be the most well-versed in the arcane arts of DOS sound card use. That and, as I mentioned earlier, I hope to compile a FAQ for putting together a DOS legacy system that is a bit more current that will cut down on a lot of the "Is <insert hardware here> for DOS and legacy gaming?" questions that I stumbled across while researching the hardware for these systems.

You've got a lot of nice components for your retro-gaming rigs. Congratulations! 😁

What about finding a second Voodoo2 for SLI on System 2?

Great Hierophant wrote:

I do not like to use the SCB-55 with a Sound Blaster 16. In my opinion, the sound output of the daughter board is not as good as it is on an MPU-401AT or similar card.

I agree, but it's nice to be able to use the SB16/SCB-55 combo when you are low on ISA slots.

I did have a question for you 'tho. My understanding, at least from what research I've done, is that PCI = SUX0rz for any kind of DOS (read: not in a Window nor DOS window) gaming due to the emulation and lack of "true" DOS and/or SB16 support. However, it has been said that the Aureal2 AU8830 and Yamaha YMF724/YMF744-based cards are the best based upon the Compromises made. Do you agree or is there a different PCI-based card that, even taking into account the weaknesses, that you feel would be a more suitable choice?

I have read that the Yamaha PCI chips actually contain a real OPL3 inside them, but I can't confirm that. However, as Yamaha created the OPL chips, I would say that their implementations are probably closest to the real thing. I cannot claim any expertise in PCI sound cards, they are just too "vanilla" for my tastes. These seem as good as any, but if you are wanting to run DOS games off a sound card, find a motherboard with one ISA slot in it.

I used a Sound Blaster Live! for a while back in the day for DOS support, but I hated it because required loading EMM386 for the functionality. EMM386 and games like Ultima VII do not mix.

5u3,

Already way ahead of you on the voodoo2 front and managed to get a sweet deal on another one. The only fustration I have right now is trying to track down a SLI cable which I've been unable to locate so far. That and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay $10 for one off of ebay if I can help it.

Great Hierophant,

PCI cards definatly are in the "vanilla" category but, oddly enough, also seem to be the most frequently asked about cards I've seen on here. Honestly, it somewhat surprises me that nobody has yet to put together a single, and unified, retro PC build guide on here yet. Oh well, I'm slowly puttering along on mine as free time presents itself and if someone manages to get one up before me all is the better. ^__^

It's funny that you mention the EMM386 issue in that I ran into a rather irritating situation when putting together these boxen that required me to turn it off just to get a card to work. Then again, I should have remembered just how much of a PITA it was to get it working right to begin with. 😜

Everyone,

Well, after some trial and error as well as catching up on things posted here, here are the final specs that I stuck with for the boxen:

System 1: DOS/Win98SE ISA box

Pentium III 1 GHz Slot-1 (with a Pentium II 233 Mhz and a Pentium III 500 MHz to slot in for VERY old DOS titles or Win95 titles)
A VIA Apollo Pro133A-based motherboard with one ISA slot and 4x AGP
512MB PC133 SDRAM
Nvidia GeForce 3 64MB AGP
3DFX Voodoo1 4MB
Sound - PCI: Aureal Vortex2 AU8830 SQ2500 Quad (Revision B)
Sound - ISA: Sound Blaster 16 ASP ISA card (CT1740)

System 2: Win98SE/DOSBOX PCI-only box

Intel Pentium III 1 GHz socket-370
Intel 810 chipset motherboard with 1 AGP and 3 PCI slots
512MB PC133 SDRAM
Nvidia GeForce 3 64MB AGP
3DFX Voodoo2 12MB
A YMF724-based sound card

Overall, these were the absolute best systems that, IMHO, I feel would be the optimal configuration for single PC to play any game that was produced between the DOS and Win9x/Glide era of gaming. The only way to get better compatibility would be to have more than one boxen for each era which not a lot of people have the space or the time for.

Possibly in the future as DOSBOX, or even possibily other virtual PC-based software, are further refined to allow for 90% or greater emulation at full-speed on modern hardware for older titles we will no longer have to dabble in the arcane arts of hardware scrounging. ^__^

pjladyfox wrote:

The only fustration I have right now is trying to track down a SLI cable which I've been unable to locate so far.

You can make one yourself. All you need is an old floppy ribbon cable and a cutting knife. Here is a diagram showing how to fit the connectors:

IMO I'd just go with a Voodoo3,4, or 5 instead. The image quality gets a lot better and they are faster of course. And you can save PCI slots, reducing from 3 to 1! And this is a big plus in some old mobos! Nice to be able to throw in a PCI NIC, PCI UDMA100 card, and PCI Sound card too! The Voodoo3 and newer cards have absolutely awesome DOS and Windows 2D capability too. They will dust just about everything else in 2D clarity, speed, and compatibility.

I do believe there are hacks to get even a Voodoo5 to run really old DOS Voodoo1 games.

swaaye,

Can you clarify on the "awesome DOS" part in regards to the Voodoo3? The reason I ask is that, at least as far as what I've been able to research, that the Voodoo3 (or even the voodoo4 and/or voodoo5) had the following issues:

- Lack of 100%-compatible Glide support in DOS
- Lack of 100%-compatible Glide support in Windows
- Poor performance in some DOS Glide titles
- Poor graphics and/or crashes in some Windows Glide titles

Granted, some have also had success using GlideDOS, or other Glide wrappers, using other 3D graphics cards. However, the only way to get 100%-compatibility was to use a Voodoo1 for DOS and a Voodoo2 for everything else; swapping between the two when necessary. Kind of like the situation with audio cards; want 100% compatibility go with a ISA Sound Blaster 16 of the non-SCSI variety and, if possible, of the CT1740/CT1750 variety.

But, if that is incorrect I definatly would like to know. ^__^

I was referring to the DOS VGA core, which is a super fast 128-bit design. DOS Glide support is trickier, but I know there are hacks and other methods to get many older games working. There's a page on the web out there dedicated to getting Tomb Raider running, for example.

Undoubtedly the best way to get old games running for certain is a Voodoo1 with some old drivers.

BUT, if you can get the Voodoo3/5/6 working it will be a) a lot faster and b) a lot better looking.