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Proprietary 3D API's

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First post, by GL1zdA

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Hi!
I try to compile information about the early 3D accelerators. I already found a lot here, but I would like to ask some questions. I'm especially interested iin the early 3D API's, chips that support them and games that use them.

Glide - not much to say here. It's the most popular proprietary 3D API. I've already found here a lot about it (which games work with V1 only etc.).

SGL:
Are there games that will work on PCX1/PCX2 but will not on an PowerVR 250 (Neon250) and vice-versa? Is there a list of these? (I found this but it doesn't seem complete).

S3 S3D / MeTaL
Do Savage cards support S3D? If not, is there anything faster than the Trio3D for S3D (is there a list with the frequencies at which the ViRGE and Trio chips operate)?

Rendition RRedline / Speedy3D
Are there game that will work on Verite 1000 but will not on Verite 2100/2200? Is there a list of these?

ATI CIF:
ATI 3D Rage, 3D Rage II/II+/IIC, Rage Pro, Rage LT Pro
Does anyone know whether it works with ATI Rage XL (its Rage Pro based)? Which is the fastest of these cards? (Rage Pro, Rage LT Pro or Rage XL?). Is there a list of games supporting it? (i found: WipeOut, Assault Rigs, MechWarrior II, Formula 1 - probably only available bundled with ATI cards [The CD-ROMs have "Powered by ATi 3D Rage" on them])

Matrox MSI:
Mystique, Mystique 220
Are there any other cards that support it? Is there a list of games which use it?

NV1:
Does the API of this card have some name? Is there a list of games supporting it?

What about these: ARK8800, Taz-3D, Trident 975, Number Nine (several cards), SiS 6326, Intel i740 etc. Are there any games made for these? Are there any other proprietary 3D API's?

Some notes:
List of old graphic accelerators

Last edited by GL1zdA on 2008-05-06, 12:36. Edited 2 times in total.

Reply 1 of 70, by Zup

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I think NV1 at least is supported in Tomb Raider and Unfinished Business. Other cards suported in this games are ATI Rage Pro, Rendition Verite, Matrox Mystique, PowerVR, S3 Virge and Voodoo (did anyone know that 😉 ).

I don't know if there is another compatibility list...

I have traveled across the universe and through the years to find Her.
Sometimes going all the way is just a start...

I'm selling some stuff!

Reply 2 of 70, by swaaye

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There's Panzer Dragoon and Virtua Fighter 2, I believe, that were ported from Saturn for NV1. NV1 and Saturn use similar rendering techniques.

Rendition RRedline/Speedy3D is at least somewhat "forward compatible". You can run VQuake on V2x00, for example. I think quite a few V1000-only games got updates for V2x00 once it came out. One such game is Indy Car Racing 2.

Reply 3 of 70, by Jorpho

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Zup wrote:

I think NV1 at least is supported in Tomb Raider and Unfinished Business. Other cards suported in this games are ATI Rage Pro, Rendition Verite, Matrox Mystique, PowerVR, S3 Virge and Voodoo (did anyone know that 😉 ).

Does that mean it used ATI CIF?

Hardware acceleration in Final Fantasy VII PC is likewise only compatible with a very small range of cards, including the Rage Pro.

Reply 4 of 70, by GL1zdA

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Jorpho wrote:

Hardware acceleration in Final Fantasy VII PC is likewise only compatible with a very small range of cards, including the Rage Pro.

FFVII uses DirectX AFAIK - it can be launched even on modern cards although it states it's only Riva 128/TNT compatible. (I managed to run it accelerated on Radeon 9800).

Reply 5 of 70, by Zup

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I don't know... maybe you could download the patch from www.patches-scrolls.de and check it with ATI.

And I remember playing Final Fantasy VII with ATI and Voodoo cards. There are some patches that would help (1.04), but my Geforce 7900 can not do 8 bit textures, so I can not set the hardware renderer (maybe with 3D analyze?).

I have traveled across the universe and through the years to find Her.
Sometimes going all the way is just a start...

I'm selling some stuff!

Reply 6 of 70, by GL1zdA

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Zup wrote:

I don't know... maybe you could download the patch from www.patches-scrolls.de and check it with ATI.

And I remember playing Final Fantasy VII with ATI and Voodoo cards. There are some patches that would help (1.04), but my Geforce 7900 can not do 8 bit textures, so I can not set the hardware renderer (maybe with 3D analyze?).

You have to check 'NVIDIA' to get the DirectX Renderer (even on an ATI). It reports on my R9800 that it doesn't have 8-bit textures, but still runs. (once it wouldn't render the backgrounds, but on the March 08 drivers everything works).

Reply 7 of 70, by leileilol

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GL1zdA wrote:

SGL:
Are there games that will work on PCX1/PCX2 but will not on an PowerVR 250 (Neon250) and vice-versa? Is there a list of these? (I found this but it doesn't seem complete).

Unreal. Please note that the later Unreal patches DISABLE the SGL driver though.

GL1zdA wrote:
Zup wrote:

I don't know... maybe you could download the patch from www.patches-scrolls.de and check it with ATI.

And I remember playing Final Fantasy VII with ATI and Voodoo cards. There are some patches that would help (1.04), but my Geforce 7900 can not do 8 bit textures, so I can not set the hardware renderer (maybe with 3D analyze?).

You have to check 'NVIDIA' to get the DirectX Renderer (even on an ATI). It reports on my R9800 that it doesn't have 8-bit textures, but still runs. (once it wouldn't render the backgrounds, but on the March 08 drivers everything works).

You don't even have to do that. FF7 always used Direct3D when you're using the Riva patch/option or not. There's also Glide support too.

Don't panic about the 'missing 8-bit texture support', ATI and Nvidia should have built-in driver calls for converting them to RGB/RGBA (24/32-bit) on the fly

apsosig.png

Reply 9 of 70, by GL1zdA

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leileilol wrote:

There's also Glide support too.

i also thought so until I read this (last sentence).

Davros wrote:

i remember the box for my mystique it listed b-Render as a supported api

BRender is more like DirectX or OpenGL - it runs on various hardware and I'm looking for API's that work only on hardware from the API creator (like Glide).

Reply 10 of 70, by Papa Lazarou

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GL1zdA wrote:

Rendition RRedline / Speedy3D
Are there game that will work on Verite 1000 but will not on Verite 2100/2200? Is there a list of these?

There was also Creative Lab's own "Creative Graphics Library" (CGL) API for their rendition based 3D Blaster PCI.
I recall Bjorn's 3D World was one of the main enthusiast sites for rendition cards at the time. There's a list of games at a web archive of the page >here< that shows which ones supported v1000,v2x00 or CGL.

I presume that you've found the Rendition wikipedia page? I can't seem to post the full url as a link (probably because it contains brackets) but it's at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendition - select 'Company'.

More information on a fair few cards >here<

Rendition themselves are no more, they are now Micron Integrated Technology. They still host general support and also developer sdk files for the cards though >here< as well as their >FAQ<.

The reason I've a few links is I'd love to see the rendition emulated in DOSBox some day so had already had a bit of dig to try and find documentation. Tomb Raider's water was a much prettier on Rendition than Glide's if my dodgy memory is right (it was blue tinted?) and obviously VQuake was gorgeous too! Oh how I regret giving that card away to a friend now, it would be great to try out again on my old pc 😢
Sadly I doubt my C skills will ever get anywhere near being able to do it myself, so I wait in hope that one of the resident wizards will feel like a challenge some day 😉

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Reply 11 of 70, by Silent Loon

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GL1zdA wrote:

S3 S3D / MeTaL
Do Savage cards support S3D? If not, is there anything faster than the Trio3D for S3D (is there a list with the frequencies at which the ViRGE and Trio chips operate)?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you mean is S3TC - S3 Texture Compression - that is used by the so called "MeTaL" API in Unreal / Unreal Tournament. Only Savage Chips can use this - earlier chips by S3 can't.
The S3TC / MeTaL feature was disabled (like SGL) in later patches. Later on, Ati and nVidia also became able to use (a modified version of?) S3TC.
And there should also exist a fanmade patch, that makes it possible to use S3TC textures in Unreal with modern (Ati or nVidia baded) hardware.

I think it is not the same API that is used by S3 cards for 3D acceleration in Mechwarrior 2 (apart of the fact, that all Virge and Trio models were to slow). The other way around S3 Savage models might not be able to use S3's HAL in MW2.

Reply 12 of 70, by GL1zdA

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Papa Lazarou wrote:

There was also Creative Lab's own "Creative Graphics Library" (CGL) API for their rendition based 3D Blaster PCI.
I recall Bjorn's 3D World was one of the main enthusiast sites for rendition cards at the time. There's a list of games at a web archive of the page >here< that shows which ones supported v1000,v2x00 or CGL.

Nice find. Never heard of it.

Papa Lazarou wrote:

They still host general support and also developer sdk files for the cards though >here< as well as their >FAQ<.

Thanks for the links!

Papa Lazarou wrote:

Oh how I regret giving that card away to a friend now, it would be great to try out again on my old pc 😢

They are quite cheap now, why don't you buy another?

Silent Loon wrote:

I think it is not the same API that is used by S3 cards for 3D acceleration in Mechwarrior 2 (apart of the fact, that all Virge and Trio models were to slow). The other way around S3 Savage models might not be able to use S3's HAL in MW2.

I found the name S3D here.

Reply 13 of 70, by Papa Lazarou

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GL1zdA wrote:

They are quite cheap now, why don't you buy another?

🤣 my last attempt to buy one from ebay netted me a pristine Expertcolor verite 1000 box, manual and cd ... but had an Expertcolor S3Trio/Virge card inside 😖 haven't seen another verite for sale in the 6months since, and I don't think they're very common, but I do keep looking!

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Reply 14 of 70, by batracio

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Silent Loon wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you mean is S3TC - S3 Texture Compression - that is used by the so called "MeTaL" API in Unreal / Unreal Tournament. Only Savage Chips can use this - earlier chips by S3 can't.

I think it is not the same API that is used by S3 cards for 3D acceleration in Mechwarrior 2 (apart of the fact, that all Virge and Trio models were to slow). The other way around S3 Savage models might not be able to use S3's HAL in MW2.

No, he actually means S3D. That's the name of the API used for 3D acceleration on ViRGE chips in games like MW2, Descent 2 and Tomb Raider:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S3_ViRGE

Reply 15 of 70, by Silent Loon

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Oh, sorry, I didn't know that they really labled it "S3D". So it would be indeed interesting if a Savage could handle "S3D" accelerated games like MW2 or Descent2. I never tried it...

Reply 16 of 70, by samudra

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Papa Lazarou wrote:

There was also Creative Lab's own "Creative Graphics Library" (CGL) API for their rendition based 3D Blaster PCI.

There was a Vesa Local Bus version as well. It was based around a completely different chipset (3D Labs' Glint 3D). I don't know which API was used.

The following review also mentions some games that could utilise it.

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Reply 17 of 70, by swaaye

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There's a Canopus Total3D (V1000) on eBay right now. It's the same as the Sierra Screamin' 3D.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Canopus-Total-3D-Verite-P … 1QQcmdZViewItem

Here's a Diamond Stealth II S220 (Verite V2100). BTW, Diamond released a BIOS update for these boards that upped core and RAM clocks to V2200 speed. I bought one brand new back then for $50 when Diamond was trying to dump them.
http://cgi.ebay.com/DIAMOND-23030239-403-Stea … 1QQcmdZViewItem

I have a few Verite cards. Am fascinated by them for some reason. Here are some scans. 😀
renditionreadyhc1.gif
Diamond Stealth II S220 (V2100) 4MB PCI
v2100dsteaths220ou0.th.jpgv2100dsteaths220bqc2.th.jpg
Rendition Verite V2200 Reference Design 4MB PCI
v2200refof6.th.jpgv2200refbgh2.th.jpg
Hercules Thriller 3D (V2200) 4MB PCI
v2200thriller3dra1.th.jpgv2200thriller3dbwd6.th.jpg
Sierra Screamin 3D (V1000) 4MB PCI
copyofsierrascreamin3dtfc3.th.jpg

Oooh, and here's a weird one. Not Verite-related tho.
Creative Labs Graphics Blaster 3D (Cirrus Logic Laguna 3D) 4MB RAMBUS memory
cllaguna3dca7.th.jpg

Reply 18 of 70, by leileilol

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GL1zdA wrote:
leileilol wrote:

There's also Glide support too.

i also thought so until I read this (last sentence).

it's been years since i've played FF7 on a Voodoo2 though. I KNOW the demo is Glide only however

apsosig.png

Reply 19 of 70, by Jorpho

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leileilol wrote:

You don't even have to do that. FF7 always used Direct3D when you're using the Riva patch/option or not. There's also Glide support too.

o rly? It seems to me that people were having a lot of problems getting this game running with hardware acceleration. I certainly recall that the official readme only had a very short list of cards.

EDIT: I guess those who reported such problems were unaware of that TNT patch.