I played around a bit with the shaders in fullscreen mode, CRT.D3D.br.fx indeed does look very nice 😀 Here's a small comparison of the three: CRT-geom-curved.fx, CRT.D3D.fx and CRT.D3D.br.fx.
wrote:Those Vogons users who have CRT monitors migh take some photos of how the image actually looks like. I simply can't remember anymore 😀 Also I believe there are differences between EGA and high resolution VGA monitors that can do 1024 x 768.
This is what a professional-grade Trinitron looks like: http://pms.hazard-city.de/crt4.jpg
As for VGA monitors, I wouldn't call 1024x768 hi-res. 2003 budget CRTs could do 1920x1440@60hz.
wrote:wrote:DOS games are not meant to be played on a TV.
*cough*Composite CGA*cough*
I was aiming more at 90's VGA games 😉
wrote:Yeah especially considering how they used that to "hack" new colors into games.
Also Trinitron monitors were well around during the late DOS gaming years so I don't get all the authenticity discussions here.
True, but shadow mask monitors were far more widespread during the early 90's. Still, even if these shaders attempt to emulate a trinitron they're not entirely correct: have you ever seen a spherical curved trinitron tube, or a small-size trinitron showing scanlines..?
wrote:Those Vogons users who have CRT monitors migh take some photos of how the image actually looks like. I simply can't remember anymore 😀 Also I believe there are differences between EGA and high resolution VGA monitors that can do 1024 x 768.
Here are some from my "period-correct" 14 inch shadow mask (.39 dot pitch). You may have seen these pics before.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img10/1656/8mv9.jpg (compare with LCD: http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img69/2566/gbri.jpg )
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img34/6954/h0eq.jpg (compare with LCD: http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img163/2680/mhdv.jpg )
HUGE pics:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img11/4250/hp14popfull.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img441/9343/h … 14popclose2.jpg
(compare with 19": http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img199/3460/p … 19popclose2.jpg )
(and 21": http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img845/4589/e … 21popclose2.jpg )
http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/5317/img0485z.jpg
😀
Thanks for the comparison shots! Very impressive! 😀
(Now I'll have to find some explanation as to why CRT computer monitors used a different kind of technology compared to CRT TV screens.)
[Edit] Quick Googling found this, not sure how detialed that explanation is.
Someone just needs to create a shader with adjustable dot pitch (=phosphor dot size/spacing), beam width AND beam focus, then we're set. 😀
A dot pitch of .39 was definitely on the crummy end for VGA... even most CGA monitors were better than that.
I still don't know what's the cutoff point (in vertical resolution) where VGA stops double-scanning - one of you guys with a CRT that reports the resolution on-screen might want to test that one day... still, it's at least conveniently close to the resolution in which DOSBox's normal2x scaler stops working unless it is "forced".
wrote:A dot pitch of .39 was definitely on the crummy end for VGA... even most CGA monitors were better than that.
Yup.. this was probably the worst/cheapest monitor you could get back then... But it just happens to work really well with low-res material 😀
wrote:I still don't know what's the cutoff point (in vertical resolution) where VGA stops double-scanning - one of you guys with a CRT that reports the resolution on-screen might want to test that one day... still, it's at least conveniently close to the resolution in which DOSBox's normal2x scaler stops working unless it is "forced".
With standard modes I think 320x240 is the maximum resolution where double-scanning is applied... But you can enable/disable double-scanning on any resolution if you program the CRTC directly.
With standard modes I think 320x240 is the maximum resolution where double-scanning is applied... But you can enable/disable double-scanning on any resolution if you program the CRTC directly.
Yeah, but at some point you'd lose sync if you did that - a single-scanned 320x200 VGA mode would have to be 140Hz, and I don't think most VGA monitors would be able to handle that.
(I believe some of those weird ___x256 mode X variants are also normally doublescanned, though I could be wrong...)
wrote:Here are some from my "period-correct" 14 inch shadow mask (.39 dot pitch). You may have seen these pics before.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img10/1656/8mv9.jpg (compare with LCD: http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img69/2566/gbri.jpg )
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img34/6954/h0eq.jpg (compare with LCD: http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img163/2680/mhdv.jpg )
That looks a lot more like what I remember 😀
I never recall having scanlines on a VGA monitor from around 1993. That was mostly consoles via Scart RGB.
wrote:(Now I'll have to find some explanation as to why CRT computer monitors used a different kind of technology compared to CRT TV screens.)
CRT TVs only give you the scanlines in 240p mode which requires Scart RGB. If you played via RF anteanna, composite or S-Video like most people I believe you didn't get these scanlines. Also in PAL regions the resolution was higher and the image vertically shrunk a little with black bars at the top and bottom. So scanlines would be thinner.
You don't need RGB for 240p. Although in the past I did mistake composite dot crawl on sets with bad comb filters for interlacing...
AFAIK the EGA 350-line modes are the lowest single-scanned ones. However, there is no real "cutoff point", for example there is the 512x384 VESA mode, which has more lines but is double-scanned.
wrote:You don't need RGB for 240p. Although in the past I did mistake composite dot crawl on sets with bad comb filters for interlacing...
Are you sure about this? Because composite and S-Video is 480i / 576i and can be captured.
Yeah, RGB doesn't change the resolution at all. 240p/288p is just a trick placing even and odd fields of NTSC/PAL over each other. Whether a game is 240p or 480i depends on the console usually. There might be earlier cases, but in general 480i output was introduced on Dreamcast. Some consoles outputting 480i had deflickering filters later on, which is great to mask interlacing on a CRT, but quite pointless on a LCD which needs deinterlacing anyway.
I'm sure when you capture S-Video output from a PC you can use that same trick there as well for a 240p signal. Should be a good idea for VGA games.
I know I saw scanlines on my monitor in 1995.
wrote:I played around a bit with the shaders in fullscreen mode, CRT.D3D.br.fx indeed does look very nice 😀 Here's a small comparison of the three: CRT-geom-curved.fx, CRT.D3D.fx and CRT.D3D.br.fx.
That looks genuinely nice indeed 😀
I'd go with the second one as it seems to have slightly more saturated colors compared to the first one, and the scanlines come out nicely. The third personally reminds me of a Game Boy Advance game (sans the scanlines) in terms of having a slightly washed out image due to high brightness.
How I see 320x200 in CRT.D3D.br.fx (2)) (3)
USE NORMAL2X PEOPLE
(except for EGA/CGA games of course)
wrote:USE NORMAL2X PEOPLE
Fair enough. Here's another batch of comparison shots (1024x768):
CRT-geom-curved.fx (hardware2x)
CRT-geom.curved.fx (normal2x)
CRT.D3D.fx (hardware2x)
CRT.D3D.fx (normal2x)
CRT.D3D.br.fx (hardware2x)
CRT.D3D.br.fx (normal2x)
Given current resolution constraints on the vast majority of LCD monitors, the best you can do as pertains CRT monitor emulation is to run the game at 4x scale and gray out every other line, or if you're going for the old VGA monitor look with no scanlines, just a slight bit of blur might do. Once we hit 4K and above, we may be able to get much more faithful CRT monitor shaders, but for now, there's not much one can do about it.
wrote:I played around a bit with the shaders in fullscreen mode, CRT.D3D.br.fx indeed does look very nice 😀 Here's a small comparison of the three: CRT-geom-curved.fx, CRT.D3D.fx and CRT.D3D.br.fx.
I see your hand and I raise.
http://i.imgur.com/6dWQ3s1.jpg
d3d.br + ... Monitor glow! Also known as halation. Also has blending, saturation and contrast.
The colors pop like crazy and text in dos has a nice white subtle glow around it as does stuff in the games, too. To my eyes, it looks very close to how my late 80s VGA CRTs looked. Not quite Tandy RGB quality but it is getting closer (I need a shift to blue to get closer to a Tandy monitor--haven't figured that out yet).
For more info:
There are my images of a Trinitron Iiyama in the D3D thread: Re: Direct3D patch (Host)
You'll never emulate a CRT properly until you can emulate reflections off of the glass, glare and such. All you're doing is adding a pincushion effect to make it seem like a curved CRT monitor. An LCD will never feel like a CRT.
