hifidelitygaming wrote:

When did MIDI support first turn up in DOS games?

One word: Sierra. They've been an early pioneer for MIDI support to the point they'll even sell MT-32s

hifidelitygaming wrote:

Which notable games lack MIDI support during the era when MIDI was popular?

Most Apogee games used IMF which was just raw OPL commands, not really MIDI.

hifidelitygaming wrote:

When did games start providing their own samples and when were the last MIDI games made? (my guess is Unreal was one of the first to provide it's own samples)

Unreal didn't use midi at all - it rendered tracker music in software through a Galaxy Audio System tracker music engine.

I do know Magic Carpet 2 (1995) had a custom soundfont for AWE32.

On the hardware side, I have one word: adlib. they made the sound card industry as much as 3dfx made video card industry. Unless I'm mistaken, that was the first sounds from a computer beyond the simple computer speakers for x86 PCs. There are indie games that still use MIDI today, though they aren't that numerous anymore.

Adlib isn't MIDI.

Playing MIDI music files using AD-LIB card
Midi in Dosbox (Adlib)

Reeeeeeeeeally?

I think this is your worst troll yet.

But Adlib isn't MIDI.

What MIDI-supporting games do for Adlib, is try to simulate MIDI playback with sound drivers that have instrument patches for OPL2. This gives the perception that Adlib is "midi capable" but Adlib is not true MIDI hardware. It's often mistaken as so because it's widely supported and MIDI is often synonymic with music that has no internal samples.

On the flipside, Adlib-only supporting games don't try to output to MIDI. Why? Maybe it's because Adlib isn't MIDI. The only way you'll hear adlib as midi is through a crappy emulation TSR for soundcards that have no OPL support, like an AudioPCI.

Also quit the personal attacks already, you've been warned enough about that.

leileilol wrote:

Adlib isn't MIDI.

Cool! I didn't know that.
Listening to games' music such as Bubble Bobble and other Taito coin-op conversions of that era had driven me totally wrong. It sounds like MIDI to me (I have no great knowledge about that but I love it) and the drivers must be loaded internally (is it possible?)

leileilol wrote:

The only way you'll hear adlib as midi is through a crappy emulation TSR for soundcards that have no OPL support, like an AudioPCI.

That explains why some Japanese games need to load that TSR without with I can hear no music (or sound too sometimes)

Adlib isn't compatible with midi standards like general midi. That is worlds away from not being a midi type of sound device, which is also called FM synthesis. It uses a yamaha OPL2 FM synthesis chip just like midi standard compliant midi synthesis devices after it use, unless they use OPL3 chips, or newer.

So yes, it is a midi type sound card.

It's only MIDI if you simulate it by driver, such as a Windows driver called "FM Synthesis" in found your MIDI Mapper.

OPL2 and 3 know no standards. It recieves raw OPL commands through port 388. It outputs them. The end.

Jaqie, I suggest you stop flaming members. Newbies accusing long established members as trolls only look like trolls themselves. Take your anger elsewhere.

What else should I call someone intentionally posting false and misleading information? As for being a newbie... no. just no. As for anger? yes, I get really pissed off when someone tries to mislead others.

As a newbie here you don't get to call anyone troll. If you think someone is posting wrong stuff, politely disagree and try to back your opinion up by facts. The way you are doing it now is bordering on trolling

midi is not adlib. Lei is totally correct about that. So there is no false information involved at all.
Yes, you can play midi samples on an adlib device (using an appropriate driver), but that doesn't mean they are the same.

MIDI defines an electrical interface (e.g. opto-isolated inputs), an encoding scheme (e.g. baud rate, start/stop bits), and a data protocol (e.g. 90 3C 40 = Note C on) for transferring musical notes between instruments and other devices.

AdLib sound, including OPL2 (or 2 operator) and OPL3 (or 4 operator) is played back by directly writing to the ISA bus on the appropriate port.

As qbix rightly says, a software driver can read MIDI data and output 2-OP or 4-OP FM data, but that data is not MIDI. 80s and 90s games that play OPL2 or OPL3 music do not contain MIDI data. (Or they do, and translate it at runtime, as in stacks like Miles Sound System)

Jaqie you got to lighten up a little 😀

The more you get involved with Retro computing, the more you realise just how much you can learn. Despite hardware being 10+ years old, we discover new things ALL the time.

There are so many variables and conditions to the issues we come across; Nobody knows it all and it's often a joint effort to try to get to the bottom of it 😀

"It's only MIDI if you simulate it by driver, such as a Windows driver called "FM Synthesis" in found your MIDI Mapper.

OPL2 and 3 know no standards. It recieves raw OPL commands through port 388. It outputs them."

What things can an OPL chip done directly do soundwise which wasn't (or couldn't) be done via MIDI versions of the same soundtrack? My only guess is FM waveform alterations in realtime that wouldn't be sampleable in any kind of simple Attack Sustain Release Decay looped wavetable... however I can't imagine many instruments dynamically changing their sound each time they play the same patch, so my guess is that only sound effects would do that...

It's also possible that musicians programming direct OPL versions of their music may have been more elaborate (or just more familiar) and threw together the MIDI version as a bit of an afterthought.

I'd like to think that the MIDI version (with the right patches) would always represent the best possible version of the soundtrack (the most expression that is) so that it's mostly a matter of choosing the right soundfont to get the best possible sound in those early 92-97 or so games. (after 95 it seems MOD music started to get more common, or direct CD audio, and eventually mp3 compressed soundtracks in game. Also games like FF7 as far as I can tell used MIDI but provided soundfonts of their own.)

As Squallstrife said, MIDI is just an interface. So the common interpretation of MIDI goes too far in this sense. So if you own a typical wavetable that is MPU-401 compatible, the music data is transferred to port 330 (f.e.) via the MIDI interface standard. Everything after this point, so in fact how the DSP renders the sound output according to this information is not MIDI anymore.
Same thing happens for OPL2/3 music where in this case the software driver converts the MIDI data to something appropriate for playback via FM-Synthesis. same applies for MIDI playback via SID chip f.e.

So for retro computing MIDI usually refers only to the format where the original music data is present. How this data is processed to generate audio is strongly dependent on implementation.

Just to give an example from the FM-Synthesis point of view:
Load SBOS with a GUS to emulate OPL2. Now if you play a FM-Synthesis song it is still wavetable synthesis implementation. (Oh and no MIDI involved)

So still that is what leaves most of people interested, since all have the same MIDI raw data but different software/hardware for processing them to generate music.

leileilol wrote:

But Adlib isn't MIDI.

I always thought there were two main types of MIDI synthesis: FM (which is what I thought Adlib's OPL2 chip does?), and wavetable/sample based synthesis?

I know Adlib uses .rol files, but I thought they were a special type of MIDI file, like cmf?

Or, by "MIDI", are you referring exclusively to wavetable/sample based synthesis?

And there are lots of interesting downloads here and here that may provide some insight into the early history of MIDI in PCs and PC games.

AdamP wrote:

I always thought there were two main types of MIDI synthesis: FM (which is what I thought Adlib's OPL2 chip does?), and wavetabl […]
Show full quote

leileilol wrote:

But Adlib isn't MIDI.

I always thought there were two main types of MIDI synthesis: FM (which is what I thought Adlib's OPL2 chip does?), and wavetable/sample based synthesis?

I know Adlib uses .rol files, but I thought they were a special type of MIDI file, like cmf?

Or, by "MIDI", are you referring exclusively to wavetable/sample based synthesis?

And there are lots of interesting downloads here and here that may provide some insight into the early history of MIDI in PCs and PC games.

Squalstrife put it the best - but really, midi doesn't define fm/sample/wavetable/rom/synthesis method of playback, but the interface and data that is transferred between musical equipment. Think of it as TCP/IP for music.

I don't know how to get this out without seeming self centered, or an attention nut, or something.... Ive been trying to figure out how to do so ever since realizing it days ago, so Ive stayed silent rather than making this a worse place...

I still don't know if this is the best way to do it, but I wanted to explain and also apologize.

This is not an excuse, my behaviour hasn't been so good and that's my fault. I used to be like a steel trap for computer knowledge and information, but I got something called shy-drager and also MSA about 9 years ago, which is distantly similar to alzheimer's, but not the same. The stats say that 80% of people with this die by 10th year, and the people that have it wind up in a nursing home far before that from lack of being able to function physically and mentally. I am housebound more or less, but I take most of care of myself, with some help from a home care worker. I am and always have been fiercely independent and this kind of mental and memory degradation is infuriating me and making me go through all kinds of emotional hurt. Put simply, I don't remember things correctly anymore, get confused, and remember things outright wrong sometimes, and lately it's been more and more often it happens.

This is not an excuse for my mood here, simply the reason I was acting out so harshly. I am sorry, I should not have allowed my anger and frustration out on people who had nothing to do with it, and honestly I am terrified of this whole process. I had made a name for myself in this industry despite being female by always remembering everything perfectly, and learning and retaining so much that I could not be passed off as some woman instead of a very good and knowledgeable PC tech.

I hope those that I went off on can find it in their heart to forgive me, and maybe place themselves in my shoes for long enough to see why I behaved so badly about this - it was out of fear of my own mental degradation, not hostility toward anyone.