The non-Creative soundcards restriction remover dedicated for latest ALchemy 1.45.03 will work in a sound card witch is based in c media 8768 ?
thnks

boombastik wrote:

The non-Creative soundcards restriction remover dedicated for latest ALchemy 1.45.03 will work in a sound card witch is based in c media 8768 ?
thnks

Restriction remover simply removes the requirement. It's going to work with everything.

swaaye wrote:

Realtek also has their 3D Sound Back that works like Alchemy but I don't think it works with modern drivers. I tried it recently and couldn't get it working. I had to use Vista compatibility mode to even get the 3D Sound Back app to load.

Works fine here under Windows 10 x64 with drivers dated 18/06/2015. I have a Realtek ALC1200.

You do indeed need to run the installer with Windows Vista Service Pack 2 Compatibility Mode as well as the main program after it is installed needs the same compatibility setting (Maybe also need to be run as Admin). It seems to grant me EAX 2 support in Neverwinter Nights 2 without issue.

Edit: I have to do some more testing but when using Winamp's Direct Sound plugin with 3D Sound Back it seems to have a very slight audio quality loss. Like the audio is slightly too crisp. Mirh's video demonstration https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AQIt78Cfz8 seems to demonstrate what I noticed in regards to audio quality loss.

I always wondered why EAX audio sounded like crap when using these software methods, because I clearly remembered the audio being a lot brighter and way better sounding than what I hear when using these software solutions to enable EAX in Mass Effect, Unreal Tournament 99 and Neverwinter Nights 2 for example. Originally I thought it was more of a buggy interaction between the game and the software solutions but now I'm starting to think the software solutions are just full of crap, this makes me feel pretty disappointed.

ALchemy and CoreAudio 3D sound like crap, the environmental effects are terrible, the audio positioning is wrong and the overall quality of the audio sounds like it's being downsampled or something (The poorer quality is also noticed in Winamp when using software solutions with Winamp's DirectSound plugin). Realtek's 3D Sound Back software has the same issues.

I've been thinking about this some more and to me it isn't at all surprising that Soundcards with hardware support for EAX, DSP's and audio mixing sound a lot better with Creative EAX, Realtek 3D Sound Back etc. audio solutions than an integrated audio device that lacks those features (Handles them in software).

Why? Because these software solutions primarily enable direct access to the audio hardware, like what DirectSound, DirectSound 3D and Direct Music did. This means the games and audio programs have direct access to the specialized hardware built in to your soundcard (EAX, DSP's, hardware mixing etc). If (and only if) your soundcard lacks those hardware features than ALchemy, etc. will fallback to a software solution that is uh, less than stellar at these things.

So basically the poor quality with sound devices that lack the hardware functionality is because the audio solutions are falling back to crappy software implementations of these features, otherwise you'd get no sound. If your sound device has hardware support for these features, these software solutions will prioritize it over the software implementation of the features and thus you should experience great sound quality.

You might be wondering why ALchemy and Realtek 3D Sound Back produce worse audio than when not using them, if you are using an Integrated Sound Device. The answer is pretty simple, these software solutions fall back to a software implementation if the functionality isn't available so the EAX, DSP's and audio mixing are handled by the ALchemy/Realtek software solution's generic software implementation that works with all audio hardware, instead of by your audio drivers that are specific to your audio hardware. Sure your integrated sound device lacks EAX support, but it has better handling of DSP's and audio mixing than the ALchemy/Realtek generic solutions. Iirc most integrated audio solutions made in the last 6 years include a hardware DSP.

Give X-Fi MB3 a go, it works well with Realtek chips and supports ALchemy of course. I think it costs $30.

franpa wrote:

WHATEVER

You are totally off.
There's nothing intrinsically good with "hardware" and there's nothing necessarily bad with software.
Read the previous page where I discuss with MST.
ALchemy is exactly there to mimic old hardware routines, and the only problem is that I believe it has a vendor check (which has nothing to do with the license check) you have to pass to use the HQ software path.

With 3DSoundback only supporting up to EAX2, there's no wonder it sounds worse then.

PhilsComputerLab wrote:

Give X-Fi MB3 a go, it works well with Realtek chips and supports ALchemy of course. I think it costs $30.

It still suffers from quality degradation (read previous page) without Creative hardware.
Which in the end is what this guy was having.

I did a review with my onboard Realtek chip a while ago: Sound Blaster X-Fi MB3 Review

There is FEAR recording with ALchemy.

Can be compared with this video: Creative ALchemy F.E.A.R. which is on a Sound Blaster Z.

Based on official ALchemy FAQ:
http://support.creative.com/kb/showarticle.aspx?sid=28967
you can read how actually ALchemy works:

"Creative ALchemy allows Sound Blaster owners to run their favorite DirectSound3D games and experience them as game developers have intended from Windows Vista™ and above - with full hardware accelerated 3D Audio and EAX support. This is achievable by translating DirectSound3D into OpenAL calls."

So if your sound card is hardware accelerated sound card it should work the same as directly using OpenAL. I do not know nothing about vendor checks inside ALchemy, but site above mentions about separate Audigy Edition for Audigy sound cards. Maybe some calls translated to OpenAL are Creative specific, and this is why effects are worse on non Creative hardware, but I'm not sure.

I'm more practical, prefer evidence over fact sheets 😀

I might make some recordings one day comparing all the options because when I played with X-Fi MB3 on Realtek I was very satisfied. But without side by side comparison it's difficult for sure.

PhilsComputerLab wrote:

I might make some recordings one day comparing all the options because when I played with X-Fi MB3 on Realtek I was very satisfied. But without side by side comparison it's difficult for sure.

If you will be able to compare sound using ALchemy with Creative sound card vs ALchemy with non-Creative sound card, for example Realtec, it could give real, practical and final answer for question: is there any hardware specific solutions within ALchemy, that makes EAX sound good on Creative and bad on other vendors, or mabe not, and it depends only on sound card abilities, not it's vendor/chipset.

MST wrote:

PhilsComputerLab wrote:

I might make some recordings one day comparing all the options because when I played with X-Fi MB3 on Realtek I was very satisfied. But without side by side comparison it's difficult for sure.

If you will be able to compare sound using ALchemy with Creative sound card vs ALchemy with non-Creative sound card, for example Realtec, it could give real, practical and final answer for question: is there any hardware specific solutions within ALchemy, that makes EAX sound good on Creative and bad on other vendors, or mabe not, and it depends only on sound card abilities, not it's vendor/chipset.

Please double check that the hardware performance (SnR, crosstalk, distortion) of the two test platforms is similar. Use digital out to a common analog stage if possible. We want to check if ALchemy is crippling itself, not what hardware limitations on board audio has.

Any feedback on the videos I linked above? They have recordings of the things you want, at least in the game F.E.A.R.

The crack for installing ALchemy without a Creative Soundcard seems to break the icon that the programs EXE file uses as well as any shortcuts that refer to the EXE for the icon. You can see the Icon correctly when selecting it but the EXE file and any shortcuts to it will use a blank white icon when viewed on the desktop/in Windows Explorer. Iam using Windows 10 x64.

Edit: As the author pointed out, I might be wrong. The problem might have always been present and I simply didn't notice it before I started messing with a crack for the program.

MST wrote:

So if your sound card is hardware accelerated sound card it should work the same as directly using OpenAL. I do not know nothing about vendor checks inside ALchemy, but site above mentions about separate Audigy Edition for Audigy sound cards. Maybe some calls translated to OpenAL are Creative specific, and this is why effects are worse on non Creative hardware, but I'm not sure.

Audigy specific ALchemy version might be as well a remnant of those days when Creative believed it could charge Audigy user for the software.
Nowadays it's just one version for every card.

Speaking of "hardware accelerated", I can't avoid to point you out again to check that "Using Creative Software 3D Library" which is definitively not the right one. "Using Native OpenAL Renderer" has to be.

MST wrote:

If you will be able to compare sound using ALchemy with Creative sound card vs ALchemy with non-Creative sound card, for example Realtec, it could give real, practical and final answer for question: is there any hardware specific solutions within ALchemy, that makes EAX sound good on Creative and bad on other vendors, or mabe not, and it depends only on sound card abilities, not it's vendor/chipset.

This is my rationale:

ZanQuance wrote:

Hmm not sure why there is such a strong desire to capture the raw channels, but the quality of Xear3D and Alchemy just from list […]
Show full quote

Hmm not sure why there is such a strong desire to capture the raw channels, but the quality of Xear3D and Alchemy just from listening tests and comparing to an Audigy4 I have showed a large difference. If Alchemy is running in software mode like the universal versions or on a Realtek with the SBX-MB3 software the reverb is way over bloated. On the real Audigy the wrapper passes to OpenAL and things sound much better.

mirh wrote:

Really? Interesting (the thing is that tl;dr.. I hate subjective testings.. and I'd prefer just yes, it's equal/no it's differen […]
Show full quote

Really? Interesting (the thing is that tl;dr.. I hate subjective testings.. and I'd prefer just yes, it's equal/no it's different comparisons 😵 )

ZanQuance wrote:

I hate subjective tests as well, but the reverb of Alchemy is definitely not sounding correct . You can clearly hear the short comings in the GoldMine EAX demo Creative released for the Audigy1 which demonstrates EAX4 Advanced HD. Just select the reverb tests to show how bad it sounds. I think they might have deliberately gimped the reverb if a SoundBlaster wasn't detected, because there is NO reason they should be sounding that different.

Anyway, is ALchemy hardcoded to look for ct_oal... or can it also work with other's manufacturer native devices? Because I mean.. even Realtek has one for example.

ZanQuance wrote:

I'm pretty certain Alchemy is hardcoded for SoundBlaster devices only, as just to get it running on other cards you have to run the old universal version or do a license crack to use the newer versions. X-FI MB3 has alchemy for the motherboards realtek chips and to me sounds the exact same as running the license cracked version on my cmi8788 card. So that tells me they gimped the internal renderer for all non-Creative OpenAL cards.

I have not gotten Xear3D GX2.5 running EAX4 properly, it always throw a secondary buffer error. Tried with many different driver versions and hacked drivers from other cards. EAX2 and EAX3 games run and sound just fine though. Tested EAX3 in Unreal2 and EAX4 AdvancedHD in Thief3.

mirh wrote:

Is Xear3D and GX the same identical thing in the first place?

ZanQuance wrote:

Xear3D is the parent container for all Cmedia 3D effects at the driver level, and GX is ASUS's DS3D hooking process they load with HsMgr.exe.

The main issue with the CMI8788 based soundcards is that all HRTF processing requires Dolby headphone mode to be on and that adds its own stupid reverb to the mix. All in all I hate using it.

So Alchemy sounds bad if running in software mode, and just fine in hardware mode with a real Creative card.
Xear3D/GX2.5 reverb sounds accurate, but doesn't run EAX4 properly in my case.

ZanQuance wrote:

To test the secondary buffer issue, Rightmark 3D sound test always throws the error when EAX4 is enabled on my card.

And HRTF requires Dolby Headphone to be enabled which messed up the reverb.

ZanQuance wrote:

As far as adjusting the reverb you only have 3 reverb presets which all add that annoying echo. So if you are playing a game and your character is outside like in skyrim you have that annoying reverb still when there should be none. Same with any older DS3D game, you get the games bloated reverb through Alchemy + the Dolby Reverb on top. So I find Dolby Headphone quite annoying to use for gaming.

Neither are good solutions in my personal opinion.

So, TL;DR everybody ever but Creative has just have been using a broken OpenAL setup (which is quite possible given how much time I spent getting it to work with both Realtek and Asus cards) and ALchemy just naively fell back
OR
a vendor check indeed.

PhilsComputerLab wrote:

Any feedback on the videos I linked above? They have recordings of the things you want, at least in the game F.E.A.R.

I wouldn't know if they are very comparable due to various settings used in the meantime in the MB3 review.
Though, I believe it would be really easy to compare RAW audio in audacity (I'm not sure youtube can retain everything we'd need for a definitive answer).

In my opinion discussion goes to wrong side. I'm not a specialist, moreover I do not have any Creative soundcars or any other advanced sound card. As far as I know EAX is extension to DirectSound founded by Creative, which allows to generate several sound effects using DSP (Digital Sound Procesor) unit, shipped with Creative sound card. Similar to hardware accelerated graphic cards, sound effects were not processed using regular PC CPU. This is why we call those cards "hardware-accelerated". Nowadays our CPU is more efficient, and the same effects can be achieved using normal CPU, not only dedicated DSP. This is why Creative released SBX-MB3, which allow users to have the same effects, which were available in soundcards with dedicated DPS unit. Of course if at the end we have cheap, regular sound card, then SBX-MB3 will not be able to produce amazing sound results as oryginal, great hardware. But I believe it can be close to it if sound card at the end are quite good. I think that ALchemy translates DirectSound HAL layer instruction to OpenAL, as Creative declares. But if we have SBX-MB3, then it translates to SBX-MB3 software, which does sound processing, then processed sound goes to final sound card, like Realtec, Asus or even Creative. If we do not have SBX-MB3 software we should not expect, that ALchemy will emulate EAX effects. It only emulates DirectSound HAL, and rest is in sound card possibilities or software interface located behind OpenAL. So in my opinion if we enable EAX on Relatec sound card using ALchemy, yes, we will hear something, but it won't be great as SBX-MB3 software or hardware accelerated sound card by Creative. But the great value of ALchemy is able to "restore" DirectSound Hardware Abstract Layer, that not only can enable EAX in games, but for some games it enables to hear any sound. Without it some games have totally no sound effects on modern WinOS. Using ALchemy we can hear sound again, just like WinXP/Win2k3 nad previous Win.

However it could be interesting to hear comparision of non-Creative sound card, using any game like F.E.A.R. to see if there is any difference between no EAX enabled (standard stereo sound) vs EAX enabled using ALchemy on the same hardware.

mirh wrote:

]Any feedback on the videos I linked above? They have recordings of the things you want, at least in the game F.E.A.R.

I wouldn't know if they are very comparable due to various settings used in the meantime in the MB3 review.[/quote]

I used equivalent settings. And don't worry about the YouTube quality, it uses a very high bit rate. I recommend headphones.

All I hear is talk about differences, yet nobody is actually able to explain what they are. Highs, lows, reverb, chorus, position? WHAT are you guys talking about? 🤣

MST wrote:

This is why Creative released SBX-MB3, which allow users to have the same effects, which were available in soundcards with dedicated DPS unit.

Creative released MB3 to make money on its old technology.
It's just a container for all their usual gimmicks with a valid license as their cards always came bundled.

MST wrote:

Of course if at the end we have cheap, regular sound card, then SBX-MB3 will not be able to produce amazing sound results as oryginal, great hardware.

It is software, there's no fortuity or chance in this. Just think their latest SoundBlaster series is 100% software.... yet everything works there.

MST wrote:

But I believe it can be close to it if sound card at the end are quite good.

We all believe. The amazing discover was this difference they reported me. And which I'd love to dissect, and perhaps workaround.

MST wrote:

I think that ALchemy translates DirectSound HAL layer instruction to OpenAL, as Creative declares.

More accurately, it exposes (and redirect) hardware buffers, which microsoft removed. So games don't fall back in the 90s.
Weirdly, if I'm not gone mad, I'm pretty sure I had ALchemy working even without OpenAL. Somebody can confirm this too?

MST wrote:

But if we have SBX-MB3, then it translates to SBX-MB3 software, which does sound processing, then processed sound goes to final sound card, like Realtec, Asus or even Creative.

There's nothing like this. I dare you to disable every MB3 service and driver, and check if ALchemy still work.

MST wrote:

If we do not have SBX-MB3 software we should not expect, that ALchemy will emulate EAX effects.

I dare you to check RightMark3D, and see if there's a difference or not.
Also, it's funny that since OpenAL has a Generic Hardware fall back (which uses DirectSound), you get EAX3 and EAX4 there too.

MST wrote:

However it could be interesting to hear comparision of non-Creative sound card, using any game like F.E.A.R. to see if there is any difference between no EAX enabled (standard stereo sound) vs EAX enabled using ALchemy on the same hardware.

What? Of course there'll be.
My point is that instead of using the HQ software path, they use a crappier one.
NOW: are we all dumb in configuring OpenAL (not as odd as it sounds) or is there a malicious vendor check?

PhilsComputerLab wrote:

I used equivalent settings. And don't worry about the YouTube quality, it uses a very high bit rate. I recommend headphones.

All I hear is talk about differences, yet nobody is actually able to explain what they are. Highs, lows, reverb, chorus, position? WHAT are you guys talking about? 🤣

Honestly? I distrust myself so much my audio memory is nonexistent. (Or perhaps I'm just too lazy to focus..)

mirh wrote:

There's nothing like this. I dare you to disable every MB3 service and driver, and check if ALchemy still work.

I can agree, but EAX effects can be worse than with MB3, because I suppose with MB3 translated OpenAL calls goes to MB3 soft, before it goes to final sound card. without MB3 I suppose translated EAX calls goes directly to the final sound card. As long Creative MB3 software can enchance sound, without it it can sound worse. Or maybe MB3 software is only to give users license and some additional sound processing tools, not realted directly to EAX. I hope somebody with MB3 can confirm or not if this true comparing ALchemy only EAX output without MB3 vs ALchemy with MB3 EAX ouput.

MST wrote:

Or maybe MB3 software is only to give users license and some additional sound processing tools, not realted directly to EAX.

That's indeed what I'm saying. MB3 is not any different (imo) from X-Fi modded motherboard/drivers (which I tried).
Personally, I'd recommend you that only if you were looking for crystalizer 24-bit or other gimmicks. But I don't consider them relevant nor necessary to our point.
Though, I can't avoid again to turn down any comment regarding quality.

ps: I got DS hardware buffers and EAX1-4 support in RightMark even after I had deleted OpenAL32.dll and wrap_oal.dll from system folder.. I wonder which kind of DRM they used to obfuscate this (it doesn't seem like SafeCast is bundled anymore). It would be all much easier to understand then.
I advance another hypotheis: perhaps it's not a vendor lock, or misconfiguration.. perhaps it's just they support some special OpenAL EFX shit?

EDIT: oh, after reflecting a bit, it makes sense ALchemy works without OpenAL on my system. It's using Creative Software 3D Library after all (not Native OpenAL Renderer)
Now as always the question is: does it switch to it before even or after attempting to load OAL?
It would be cool to process monitor dll loading on X-Fi (cm_oal) and Core3D(sens_oal) cards, perhaps even on older versions.

EDIT2: or check what happens when you switch between modes

OK, are there any solutions for xp? from what I'm getting the alkemy universal is for win7. I want envirenmental audio support on my vm.