ruthan wrote on 2020-02-23, 20:36:

...but Serious Sam and GLQuake are most complicated games to be emulated...

Nay, Glide and OpenGL games are lucky to enjoy vast hobbyist support (like myself etc.) and today they are very much playable on modern emulators. GLQuake is not at all CPU heavy. DOSBox and even QEMU TCG handle it very well at close to 60FPS at *ANY* resolution. QEMU WHPX using 3Dfx OpenGL and dgVoodoo2 can do Serious Sam TFE at ~50FPS at 1024x768.

However, you don't need emulation to play those games on modern systems. They still run well on Windows 10 1909 x64 version.

Difficult games for emulation today are games that support only Direct3D and have no Glide or OpenGL alternatives, especially the older version of Direct3D from DirectX3 to DirectX7. There are many Direct3D API wrappers, but most of them only work with a handful of well tested and popular titles.

kjliew wrote on 2020-02-25, 01:30:

Difficult games for emulation today are games that support only Direct3D and have no Glide or OpenGL alternatives, especially the older version of Direct3D from DirectX3 to DirectX7. There are many Direct3D API wrappers, but most of them only work with a handful of well tested and popular titles.

dgvoodoo2 should work with every Direct3D from DirectX1 to DirectX9c. If it doesn't, report a bug 😀

dgvoodoo2 should work with every Direct3D from DirectX1 to DirectX9c. If it doesn't, report a bug 😀

Just for fun i tried to find whow to report bug on contact on project page (http://dege.freeweb.hu/dgVoodoo2/dgVoodoo2.html), nothing in readme, maybe is with help file, which cant be open on vanilla Win10 without some fixing:)

Otherwise dgVoodoo2 is something which i had to use for most of the games with GPD Win 2 machine, which has Intel integrated Hell HD, i never tough how bad compatibility would be out of box.

Direct3D is still better that Direct2D problems.. Only game where i have problem with dgVoodoo2 is Blood2.
https://docs.zoho.com/sheet/open/fk1pg055f16b … 0-64b/ranges/C6

Ok, i found it you have to navigate by old way to root of web address:
http://dege.freeweb.hu/dgVoodoo2/Readme.html

And that is actually targeted to Vogons:
dgVoodoo General

ruthan wrote on 2020-02-26, 01:29:

...
Direct3D is still better that Direct2D problems.. Only game where i have problem with dgVoodoo2 is Blood2.

I think you mixed up Direct2D with Directdraw. Direct2D is a rather new (Vista+) HW accelerated 2D API based on DirectX 11. Blood2 and similar titles definitely do not use Direct2D but Directdraw.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct2D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectDraw

I think ruthan meant that the only D3D game he has problems with dgvoodoo2 is blood2

Anyway ruthan it would be good if you could list all d2d problematic games on dgvoodoo2 subforum.

Yeah, i meant to report only Blood 2 problem.

And i really thing that DirectDraw and Direct2D is same thing, respectively that Direct2D is not anything official. Otherwise 99% of games which are playing and are Vista+ are 3D games, so any other 2D game would be still DirectDraw.
BTW i really invested lots of time to try making Diablo 1 working with Intel HD on GPD Win2, but wasnt able to solve that and had to play in Wmware workstation Win98 machine- were it ran fine.

Anyway ruthan it would be good if you could list all d2d problematic games on dgvoodoo2 subforum.

Sorry im a bit confused.. Can be dgVoodoo2 active for 2D not accelerated games too?

http://dege.freeweb.hu

The following graphics API libraries are implemented: - Glide 2.11, Glide 2.45, Glide 3.1 and Glide 3.1 Napalm - DirectX 1-7 (al […]
Show full quote

The following graphics API libraries are implemented:
- Glide 2.11, Glide 2.45, Glide 3.1 and Glide 3.1 Napalm
- DirectX 1-7 (all versions of DirectDraw and Direct3D up to version 7)
- Direct3D 8.1
- Direct3D 9

DirectDraw = 2d accelerator
All games that use DirectDraw are accelerated

ruthan wrote on 2020-02-27, 14:35:

Sorry im a bit confused.. Can be dgVoodoo2 active for 2D not accelerated games too?

For today's modern hardware, 2D is almost dead. Everything has gone 3D even your typical desktop environment of modern OS's since Windows 7, GNOME and KDE Plasma. Even the light and simple XFCE had gone 3D by enabling composition in recent release. The 2D screen is simply presented as texture quad. Both modern day's 3D APIs such as OpenGL and Direct3D are capable of doing such tricks. There is no longer special hardwired logics to push pixels, just shaders, and tons of shaders.

I can play Starcraft 1997 from QEMU on any operating system that I can build QEMU. I think Diablo 1 is no difference since they were games in similar time line.

Thanks for info, that everything is working through 3D is actually good news, it has potential to get better.

I trying to something more with QEMU KVM on Linux to test video card pass through for Windows 98, very long time ago i had some sucess with Unraid, what is simply better packages and easier to use KVM package.
https://www.win-raid.com/t6017f53-Windows-SE- … n-Hardware.html

But for not Linux things i prefer Vmware workstation, i bought licence for modern use, but its working fine for Win 98 too, only DOS is not good, because of sound so far, that is main theme you this thread. I can usually make things working with QEMU, but its clunky to setup in comparison to Vmware.
QEMU is nice for some more wild things like Power Mac emulation (no 3D so far and sound is half-broken).

ruthan wrote on 2020-02-27, 18:08:

I trying to something more with QEMU KVM on Linux to test video card pass through for Windows 98

I could be wrong, but I don't think PCI pass-through works for legacy OS's that require static VGA resources (MEM:0xA0000-0xBFFFF, IO:3Cx,3Dx,3Ex). You will need a semi-modern OS that does not depend on VGA. Most Linux can do that, but for Microsoft Windows, it will take Win8 and onwards.

Its working at least with XP as i far know and i did it with Unraid (with Geforce 7950 which is very bad card for Win98.. unofficial Nvidia driver is working ), i dunno if Unraid has some additional magic or not.. There is some proof video, personally i dont understand why tried physical Cirrus logic card which is very similar to emulated one and has no 3D acceleration..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgIF8uG-2G0

In Win-Raid discussion someone who is hc Linux user and claims that Unraid is only repackaged KVM, i really dont know. I like its simplicity, after first setup, virt-manager is more cumbersome, but its running in flow blow OS, what is advantage and not need to sacrifice whole HDDs to it and you can use just good old virtual disk images.

I have to learn with virt-manager lots of things, now im stuck at some baby steps.. For example i ported my DOS QEMu machine to it and so far, because of VNC or Spice it stuttering a lot and no sound in DOS - i set virtual SC to SB16, tried it run without and with Creative drivers, in Win7 QEMu machien sound is fine. If im not wrong sound is working also only with Spice, not with VNC.. I have some hints how to setup it without VNC/ spice etc.. but im at the start, but progress is good.

I think I might have found the first problem: using MS-DOS 6.22 and WFW 3.11, I tried to run Where in the world is Carmen Sandiego (1991).
Game crashes when it gets to the fax machine receiving the first crime report and freezes the VM, forcing a reboot. After some quick investigation (no proof found anyway) I assumed it was directly related to the sound. I don't know - possibly some issue related to MIDI?

On other emulators (DOSBox on PC, iDOS2 on iPad, and UTM on iPad) the game does not crash and runs, but causes another unrelated issue: after running the game, mouse support is dead for anything else I want to use (Windows or another game) forcing the need for another reboot to fix this. Also happens on VMware, if I manage to quit the game before the crash.

Just a quick rant about VMware Fusion’s SVGA drivers:

I can’t understand why, 2000 and XP gets SVGA II with just 64 and 128mb vram respectively, while Windows 7 and above gets SVGA 3D and can run a bit higher (256mb). It’s very, very little vram for anything to begin with.

I used to have decent real rigs back in the days to run these two (2k and XP) with vram ranging from 256mb to 512mb. I never had a really good GPU back in these days but the games were playable. 3D support was present for these two machines too.

VMware Fusion says XP has 3D support, but with just 128mb vram you can’t barely play the stock Grand Prix 4 game. Windows 7 ran it flawlessly, but I dont remember playing that in Windows 7, just in Windows 98/2k/XP. I know the software isnt intended for gaming purposes, but still, offers very little power for these virtual machines in terms of graphics. We’re talking about a game released in 2002!

Just for a reference note, VirtualBox is limited to 256mb vram too; Parallels Desktop I havent checked, simply because it doesnt have SB16 support for DOS. Last version I used was Parallels Desktop 8 and was able to get away with Win 10.

I might just kill the 2k VM and move the games to a Win 10 VM. *sighs*

Old drivers XP werent made for serios 3D stuff, maybe for some Cads etc.. and development was stopped in 2012. New ones for Windows 7+ could use up to 2/3G of Vram (Wmware workstation has this setting - Display Graphics memory and there is combobox) and are still under developemt. I never change what vram is reported in Dxdiag, but it probably doesnt matters because all data are already in RAM, so there is no penalty as in case of real machine for RAM and VRAM transfers.

Otherwise if you have problem and you are paying customer just report it to Vmware is only small change to make it bettter, for DOS sound there is link on start of thread. I dunno if Vmware has something like feature request and some voting for them.. because some voting bombing (i good sense) is probably only chance to show them, that they are wrong with ignoring retro gaming.

IIRC, Vmware for Windows guests only allows the video memory to be changed to higher values for WDDM drivers. I currently have 1GB assigned to my Windows 10 VM but my XP x64 VM even though it has 3GB assigned can only see 128MB.

You could probably request Vmware allow the values to be changed for XPDM and below drivers but:
1. Gaming is nowhere near their priority and gamers are likely not even 0.1 percent of their profits.
2. Would probably require them to update their guest drivers for XPDM and below and could potentially negatively impact compatibility.

I want to say they only supported D3D9 and above last I checked. Anything less didn't work but I haven't looked into it for a couple of years. If so there is no reason not to use Vista or above in Vmware for Windows 3D gaming and considering we have dgvoodoo 2 then you are better off. Anything less than D3D9 that doesn't work on the host, or virtualization or boxedwine should probably be ran in pcem.

Thanks for the replies. GP4 runs fine on Win7, was a major struggle to get it to work on my awesome and fine tuned Win2k and the fugly XP. I’ll have to switch to Win 10 VM for a higher level of UI customization (there are custom third party themes to resemble classic Windows UI). And I was using the 7 key with my 10 VM...

Currently I have a 3.11, 98, 2000 and 7 VMs. All DOS games on first, nothing on 98 (still talking with the guys over MSFN forums about improving web browsing in this VM), and my 98-2002 era games are on 2000 VM. I’ve only created the 7 VM for GP4 but I will take FS98 and NR2003 together.

Ironically, I could get away with Wineskin Winery to play GP4 and CS 1.6 on my Mac, but the editors for GP4 (to get the mods in) are causing me trouble. But I think I have a way to make them work.

1. Gaming is nowhere near their priority and gamers are likely not even 0.1 percent of their profits.

I wouldnt be so sure about small percentage of people which want to use such thing, because its part of corporate demagogy. Vmware workstation is product for small customers, big percentage of copulation are now playing games, average player is 35-40 years old. Its same as computer /car / phone, you also not using car - phone just for work and ever for fun.
Listen to older music is absolutely normal thing, maybe even majority of people do you listen last MTV newest stuff, but corporate are trying to convince us that for games same things is not normal.. it make sense for publishers which are willing sell, new.. but Vmware this argument is not valid. One of main features of virtualization is emulated of older hardware. That market dont want it, or doesnt exist is usually sloppy argument..

DosFreak wrote on 2020-05-05, 15:14:

IIRC, Vmware for Windows guests only allows the video memory to be changed to higher values for WDDM drivers. I currently have 1 […]
Show full quote

IIRC, Vmware for Windows guests only allows the video memory to be changed to higher values for WDDM drivers. I currently have 1GB assigned to my Windows 10 VM but my XP x64 VM even though it has 3GB assigned can only see 128MB.

You could probably request Vmware allow the values to be changed for XPDM and below drivers but:
1. Gaming is nowhere near their priority and gamers are likely not even 0.1 percent of their profits.
2. Would probably require them to update their guest drivers for XPDM and below and could potentially negatively impact compatibility.

I want to say they only supported D3D9 and above last I checked. Anything less didn't work but I haven't looked into it for a couple of years. If so there is no reason not to use Vista or above in Vmware for Windows 3D gaming and considering we have dgvoodoo 2 then you are better off. Anything less than D3D9 that doesn't work on the host, or virtualization or boxedwine should probably be ran in pcem.

Thanks. BTW, is there any GUI for managing the VMs in Qemu on macOS? I am not quite comfortable loading them from command line on macOS.

Bruninho wrote on 2020-05-06, 23:35:

Thanks. BTW, is there any GUI for managing the VMs in Qemu on macOS? I am not quite comfortable loading them from command line on macOS.

No, its one of main disadvantages of Qemu, there is nothing not outdated for Windows and MacOS, its Pita.

ruthan wrote on 2020-05-07, 05:35:

Bruninho wrote on 2020-05-06, 23:35:

Thanks. BTW, is there any GUI for managing the VMs in Qemu on macOS? I am not quite comfortable loading them from command line on macOS.

No, its one of main disadvantages of Qemu, there is nothing not outdated for Windows and MacOS, its Pita.

Indeed, its true. I have tried qemu last night and was a bit of a nightmare (fits the night I had, with torrential rain and terrible noises). I tried first Win 10, didnt go past the boot screen. Then I tried Win 2000, booted, installed, and everything. But not with a few attempts to get the “magical command line call” correct. And much to my disappointment, there’s no good drivers for the virtual gpu emulated by qemu for Win 2000.

Parallels is probably the best for macOS currently. Just one thing is holding me back from that: Parallels does not have SB16 emulation. And I have 4 vmware VMS (3.1, 98, 2000 and 10). Initially I thought about moving 98, 2000 and 10 to Parallels, using another vmware inside win 10 to run 3.1. But seems a bit of an overkill. I was a Parallels user until version 8, then I moved to vmware.

Parallels currently offers metal/dx11 support. Vmware is right behind them and is what I currently use, and the SB16 improvement in this thread really makes me happy, but no svga 3d for Win 2k? XP’s implementation isnt any better. I tried Grand Prix 4 between 2000, XP and 7; the game only ran smooth on 7. Neither 7 or XP are my OS of choice.

Virtualbox? Forget them. Oracle does not give a damn to this thing and video ram is limited to 256mb.

I have compiled PCem for macOS, sounds like a great alternative, if only I could make it work. I downloaded the required roms, saved them where they should be, yet PCem complains that cant find the roms (wtf?)...

Well... another day in paradise...