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First post, by Roland User

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Hi )
As emulate old PC Pentium II level for Windows Millenium Edition ?
I try PCem - resuld wass verry poor , when I try 86Box - result became better , but all yet poor. Now I can use WaveSynth WG MIDI and YAMAHA S-YXG70 synths in Windows Millenium Edition. This sounds so.
I want use Windows Millenium for Seer Systems Reality.

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Reply 1 of 27, by Jorpho

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I have no idea why you attached an MP3 file to your post.

PCem and 86Box are pretty much your only options, except for maybe DOSBox-X. You can maybe try VMware or VirtualPC, or maybe even VirtualBox, but none of those will provide 3D hardware acceleration.

Reply 2 of 27, by Roland User

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Jorpho wrote on 2020-07-26, 00:15:

I have no idea why you attached an MP3 file to your post.

PCem and 86Box are pretty much your only options, except for maybe DOSBox-X. You can maybe try VMware or VirtualPC, or maybe even VirtualBox, but none of those will provide 3D hardware acceleration.

Please create HDD on 2 GB and show as add this hdd in dosbox-x-conf file. I did , but file not workable.

Reply 3 of 27, by Jo22

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Hello everyone, before PCem existed,
I used Virtual PC 2004/2007 for a long time.
Microsoft released several little patches for it, if memory serves.
Along with older VM additions from Virtual PC 2004 and before,
I was able to have DOS, Windows 3.1 and Win98/Me running smoothly on Virtual PC 2007.
Also, VPC 2007 supports x64 Windows hosts and hardware-assisted virtualization.
And with manual editing of the VM file,
video memory of the emulated Trio32/64 can be increased to 16MB, even. 😀

However, VPC might be running slowly on Win Vista onwards because it uses Direct Draw,
which has to be emulated on these OSes (no direct frame buffer access possible anymore).
If that 's the case, just borrow ddraw.dll from XP an put it into the VPC directory.
See Re: Final Reality on Windows 10?

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 4 of 27, by kjliew

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I can run Final Reality on QEMU with Direct3D acceleration from WineD3D through MESA GL pass-through backend, upscaled to 1024x768. Today, if you build QEMU from source, then it is the only emulation vehicle that accelerates 3Dfx Glide, OpenGL and Direct3D through modern day's GPUs.

FR.png
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FR.png
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Final Reality on QEMU
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Fair use/fair dealing exception

I believe the FR performance figures beat any real Win98 system with Voodoo2 SLI.

Reply 5 of 27, by Jo22

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kjliew wrote on 2020-07-26, 07:45:

I can run Final Reality on QEMU with Direct3D acceleration from WineD3D through MESA GL pass-through backend, upscaled to 1024x768. Today, if you build QEMU from source, then it is the only emulation vehicle that accelerates 3Dfx Glide, OpenGL and Direct3D through modern day's GPUs.

Thank you very much for your posting! 😁👍
This really interesting, I didn't know this.
You're spot on with Qemu. Initially, I also was trying Qemu and Bochs. Bochs was extremely slow on my PC, even when only running DOS.
However, that bximage utility was very useful for making images for DOSBox 0.63 (or was it 0.73?).
Also, Qemu ran well (by comparison) with the KQemu helper program.
It somewhat accelerated "emulation" on Windows XP.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 7 of 27, by latalante

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Jo22 wrote on 2020-07-26, 08:28:

Also, Qemu ran well (by comparison) with the KQemu helper program.
It somewhat accelerated "emulation" on Windows XP.

Kqemu was removed in 2009, the last release of qemu with its support is version 0.11.
When was the last time you tested Qemu.

Yes, kqemu was extremely useful for my k6-2, but since 2007 I used kvm on amd x2.

Reply 8 of 27, by DosFreak

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Jo22 is referring to Qemu on Windows XP. Qemu hasn't worked on XP since 2016. HAXM was finalized in Qemu v2.9.

XP

VPC
VPC v5.2
VPC 2007 SP1

Vmware
32bit Vmware Workstation v7.1.6
64bit Vmware workstation v10.0.7
32bit Vmware Player v7.1.4

QEMU
setupqemuk70.exe v0.11.1
Qemu v2.7 9-3-2016

Out of the above only Vmware supports D3D9/OGL2.1 and VT-X on a Windows XP host with a Linux or 2000+ guest so no point in using QEMU on XP except for edge cases where Vmware and VPC don't work for the game.

Of course none of this has anything to do with the OP.

If pcem or 86box are running too slow then your expectations are probably too high, get real hardware and/or get a faster processor or run the games on the host.

Last edited by DosFreak on 2020-07-26, 19:21. Edited 13 times in total.

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Reply 10 of 27, by Roland User

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DosFreak wrote on 2020-07-26, 18:27:

If pcem or 86box are running too slow then your expectations are probably too high, get real hardware and/or get a faster processor or run the games on the host.

I.e you think , what i7-6950x verry small for emulate Pentium Pro ?
All work normally , but sond with delayed. What need do ?

Reply 11 of 27, by kjliew

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IMO, the biggest downside of PCem is that the emulator is faithful in the emulated CPU speed. A Pentium II is a Pentium II and the emulator behaves as a Pentium II, even though your CPU can go faster. There are certainly valid use cases for such emulation concept, but for legacy Glide/Direct3D/OpenGL games it is a huge limitation. Many of those games have other ways of keeping time and CPU emulation should be uncapped and runs as fast as possible. Even the games say recommended system requirement is Pentium II 300MHz, in practice they are far less enjoyable.

No doubt by running on modern CPU/GPU as fast as possible, some games will break but for some it also gives an entirely new experience that one could ever imagine with zero slow-down and stuttering in any circumstances during the game play, high resolution up-scaled rendering, explosions, particle trails, multiple dynamic lights, shadows and high-poly models (pre-2000).

Reply 12 of 27, by Roland User

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No, PCem not correctly emulate CPU , all what correctly emulate CPU this 86Box. But have problem... If I select Pentium Pro / II 75 - emulator working faster, than if select Pentium Pro/II-300. But this not correctly because Pentium Pro/II-300 faster than Pentium Pro/II-75.

Reply 13 of 27, by Jo22

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Roland User wrote on 2020-07-30, 10:51:

No, PCem not correctly emulate CPU , all what correctly emulate CPU this 86Box. But have problem... If I select Pentium Pro / II 75 - emulator working faster, than if select Pentium Pro/II-300. But this not correctly because Pentium Pro/II-300 faster than Pentium Pro/II-75.

The reason is simple.

PCem/86Box always try to emulate the correct number of cycles/per second.

If your PC is weak, a slow/weak system (P75) can be emulated at full speed. So it runs smooth.

But a fast/powerful system (Pentium Pro) can not. Your PC struggles then, it is down on its knees.
Thus, the emulation will be very slow.

Same happens with DOSBox, if too many cycles are used.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 14 of 27, by Roland User

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Jo22 wrote on 2020-07-30, 13:01:
The reason is simple. […]
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Roland User wrote on 2020-07-30, 10:51:

No, PCem not correctly emulate CPU , all what correctly emulate CPU this 86Box. But have problem... If I select Pentium Pro / II 75 - emulator working faster, than if select Pentium Pro/II-300. But this not correctly because Pentium Pro/II-300 faster than Pentium Pro/II-75.

The reason is simple.

PCem/86Box always try to emulate the correct number of cycles/per second.

If your PC is weak, a slow/weak system (P75) can be emulated at full speed. So it runs smooth.

But a fast/powerful system (Pentium Pro) can not. Your PC struggles then, it is down on its knees.
Thus, the emulation will be very slow.

Same happens with DOSBox, if too many cycles are used.

Whats? As this can be ? I7-6950X @ 3000 cores / 2800 cache / 2200 DDR4 in quad channel mode. CPU Load ~ 3% of 100%
If I use 86Box optimized for Haswell , performance in Norton System Info higher , but delay yet bigger. What do for emulator can use mutithread?

Reply 15 of 27, by DosFreak

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It doesn't seem like processor emulation is what you are looking for. Also If you want multithreading then use new applications or games.
Try Qemu, KVM, Vmware, Virtualbox, Hyper-V, VPC, etc.

Last edited by DosFreak on 2020-08-01, 22:25. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 17 of 27, by leileilol

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PCem craves IPC and Intel processors haven't been improving much on that in the past 8 years because there hasn't been much competition about it. If your host CPU's IPC isn't enough to emulate a target computer, then PCem will slow down.

Also another thing - you're really emulating a Pentium, not Pentium II. Pentium II is pretty much emulated only (slowly) by Bochs and MAME at this point (and proper emulation is expensive due to how it works as opposed to any other CPU PCem tackles). There is no 75mhz Pentium II. Maybe you should look into AMD K6-2 emulation instead since that's the Socket 7 Pentium II equivalent...

What also helps the PCem execution a bit in Windows 9X is running a "cooling" program like Rain or Waterfall since that'll treat idle cycles better by getting spammed with HLT instructions, as by default, Windows 9X does not idle gracefully...

apsosig.png

Reply 18 of 27, by Roland User

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Sorry , I'm erroring , I'm wanted sayd what I can not install Windows Me on Bochs. On QEMU system install , but work also slow.
No K6-2 or K6 work slow.
I'm need platform with SB16 support. for fast emulation 16 bit environment for Windows Me and VXD synthesizers. That's all.
VPC or VMWare Player does not fit.