AppleSauce wrote on 2021-10-11, 16:28:

So basically anything near the output where the atx connector is should be low esr then?

if you want to know where you go :
check the original capacitor brand serie datasheet, and see what they say...
on psu output, if they did their design with "normal" ones, you can go in regulation troubles with low/ultra low esr.
usually, they are low esr, but not always.

AppleSauce wrote on 2021-10-13, 14:29:

Also I've made a better diagram of the PSUs layout. […]
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Also I've made a better diagram of the PSUs layout.

I got a retching feeling and my instant thought was "FSP".
This page confirmed my feeling.

The "Low ESR" caps on that thingy aren't that low esr... from my datasheet sifting I believe that good low ESR electrolytics have ESR around 30, 40milliohms.

Regarding the discussion on polys etc, these have ESR typically in the range of 5 to 15milliohms.
In good modern PSUs I regularly see some electrolytics and at least one poly for each voltage rail. So I suppose the polys are being used to eat up spikes.
Maybe it might be indeed bad to "polymod" PSUs, considering that it will cause the ESR drop from, say, 40milliohms, to, say, 5milliohms.
This could, for example, lead to much higher inrush currents, which maybe other parts don't take too well.
Considering that MLCCs can have ESR of around one milliohm, I guess these aren't suitable for all PSU designs...

I think the best advice I can give is not to waste money and time on this FSP garbage, and instead get a Seasonic, because you (probably) don't want to toast your drives with 14, 15volts.

retardware wrote on 2021-10-13, 18:11:

I got a retching feeling and my instant thought was "FSP".
This page confirmed my feeling.

Nothing wrong with later FSP designs... They're appropriate for old systems because they are 5V rail heavy designs (whereas newer PSUs are 12V heavy). The problem is that this is one of their older designs, with the two transistor 5VSB circuit, and it has brown cellulose glue that degrades and becomes conductive.

Later FSP models like ATX-350PN or ATX-350THN are much better, with the exception of early revisions which also use the old 5VSB circuit in the design. You can tell whether you have the newer 5VSB circuit by looking for a 8 or so pin DIP in the primary section

The "Low ESR" caps on that thingy aren't that low esr... from my datasheet sifting I believe that good low ESR electrolytics have ESR around 30, 40milliohms.

They are in fact low ESR. He's just written it wrong in the photo. For example, for the 12.5mm green Teapo (cheapo Teapo), he wrote "0.19", when he should have written 0.019.

Regarding the discussion on polys etc, these have ESR typically in the range of 5 to 15milliohms. In good modern PSUs I regularl […]
Show full quote

Regarding the discussion on polys etc, these have ESR typically in the range of 5 to 15milliohms.
In good modern PSUs I regularly see some electrolytics and at least one poly for each voltage rail. So I suppose the polys are being used to eat up spikes.
Maybe it might be indeed bad to "polymod" PSUs, considering that it will cause the ESR drop from, say, 40milliohms, to, say, 5milliohms.
This could, for example, lead to much higher inrush currents, which maybe other parts don't take too well.
Considering that MLCCs can have ESR of around one milliohm, I guess these aren't suitable for all PSU designs...

Correct... New PSUs use polymer caps because they're specially designed for them... In old PSUs, you rarely use polymers because they usually cause enormous ripple when used in PI filters. I say 'rarely' because there are several exceptions to the rule. There's a particular thread about this very topic over at the badcaps forum.

I think the best advice I can give is not to waste money and time on this FSP garbage, and instead get a Seasonic, because you (probably) don't want to toast your drives with 14, 15volts.

I think it's a worthwhile project, if the glue were removed and if a proper 5vsb circuit was hacked in (details on how this can be done are available at the badcaps forum).

But yea, just get a Seasonic or something.

mockingbird wrote on 2021-10-13, 18:52:

Nothing wrong with later FSP designs... They're appropriate for old systems because they are 5V rail heavy designs (whereas new […]
Show full quote

retardware wrote on 2021-10-13, 18:11:

I got a retching feeling and my instant thought was "FSP".
This page confirmed my feeling.

Nothing wrong with later FSP designs... They're appropriate for old systems because they are 5V rail heavy designs (whereas newer PSUs are 12V heavy). The problem is that this is one of their older designs, with the two transistor 5VSB circuit, and it has brown cellulose glue that degrades and becomes conductive.

Later FSP models like ATX-350PN or ATX-350THN are much better, with the exception of early revisions which also use the old 5VSB circuit in the design. You can tell whether you have the newer 5VSB circuit by looking for a 8 or so pin DIP in the primary section

The "Low ESR" caps on that thingy aren't that low esr... from my datasheet sifting I believe that good low ESR electrolytics have ESR around 30, 40milliohms.

They are in fact low ESR. He's just written it wrong in the photo. For example, for the 12.5mm green Teapo (cheapo Teapo), he wrote "0.19", when he should have written 0.019.

Regarding the discussion on polys etc, these have ESR typically in the range of 5 to 15milliohms. In good modern PSUs I regularl […]
Show full quote

Regarding the discussion on polys etc, these have ESR typically in the range of 5 to 15milliohms.
In good modern PSUs I regularly see some electrolytics and at least one poly for each voltage rail. So I suppose the polys are being used to eat up spikes.
Maybe it might be indeed bad to "polymod" PSUs, considering that it will cause the ESR drop from, say, 40milliohms, to, say, 5milliohms.
This could, for example, lead to much higher inrush currents, which maybe other parts don't take too well.
Considering that MLCCs can have ESR of around one milliohm, I guess these aren't suitable for all PSU designs...

Correct... New PSUs use polymer caps because they're specially designed for them... In old PSUs, you rarely use polymers because they usually cause enormous ripple when used in PI filters. I say 'rarely' because there are several exceptions to the rule. There's a particular thread about this very topic over at the badcaps forum.

I think the best advice I can give is not to waste money and time on this FSP garbage, and instead get a Seasonic, because you (probably) don't want to toast your drives with 14, 15volts.

I think it's a worthwhile project, if the glue were removed and if a proper 5vsb circuit was hacked in (details on how this can be done are available at the badcaps forum).

But yea, just get a Seasonic or something.

I'm willing to cut my losses if you can reccomended a period correct psu model with only molex with no bulged caps and that won't cost an arm and a leg shipping included.

AppleSauce wrote on 2021-10-13, 19:12:

I'm willing to cut my losses if you can reccomended a period correct psu model with only molex with no bulged caps and that won't cost an arm and a leg shipping included.

Certainly.

Go to eBay, filter the results to items that are located in Australia, then search for AcBel or Delta.

Now look through the results for something from that era. Watch out for non-standard pinouts. I think Dell rewired the ATX connectors on some models.

Personally, I don't care about the 24 pin ATX connectors or the SATA power connectors as long as the 4 extra pins are modular in that they can be disconnected from the 20 pins.

mockingbird wrote on 2021-10-13, 21:09:

Certainly. […]
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AppleSauce wrote on 2021-10-13, 19:12:

I'm willing to cut my losses if you can reccomended a period correct psu model with only molex with no bulged caps and that won't cost an arm and a leg shipping included.

Certainly.

Go to eBay, filter the results to items that are located in Australia, then search for AcBel or Delta.

Now look through the results for something from that era. Watch out for non-standard pinouts. I think Dell rewired the ATX connectors on some models.

Personally, I don't care about the 24 pin ATX connectors or the SATA power connectors as long as the 4 extra pins are modular in that they can be disconnected from the 20 pins.

How about this?
Delta DPS-300MB

AppleSauce wrote on 2021-10-13, 22:43:

How about this?
Delta DPS-300MB

s-l1600 (1).jpg

I'm not crazy about that one. Looks like a two-transistor forward 5vsb circuit and lousy caps for it's sibling, the DPS-300KB:

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpost.php?p= … &postcount=3121

mockingbird wrote on 2021-10-14, 00:03:

AppleSauce wrote on 2021-10-13, 22:43:

How about this?
Delta DPS-300MB

s-l1600 (1).jpg

I'm not crazy about that one. Looks like a two-transistor forward 5vsb circuit and lousy caps for it's sibling, the DPS-300KB:

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpost.php?p= … &postcount=3121

Okay is there a specific model you can reccomend then?

Hang on i totally forgot i had some spare psus would any of these be suitable?

AppleSauce wrote on 2021-10-14, 01:13:

Okay is there a specific model you can reccomend then?

Did you look through that thread I linked to? Look through the posts and find a unit that has all Japanese caps in it as well as a modern 5VSB circuit.

AppleSauce wrote on 2021-10-14, 01:48:

Hang on i totally forgot i had some spare psus would any of these be suitable?

You've got three "gutless wonders" there (power supplies that lack all the necessary circuitry and are built for the low-budget market) and a non-standard HP PSU (which probably has a different pinout and would fry your motherboard if you used it - and it won't fit in a standard ATX mount).

Let's have a look at the Nunan and the Codegen if you please (post some pics of the innards)- yes, I think you can make something work out of those two if they're not too cut back inside (if input protection is missing that's fine I suppose, but if they used bridges where the inductors should be in the PI filters then I would say no).

If one of them is adequate enough, then I'll help you with sourcing the caps.

Keep in mind that this is only ok for this situation because vintage systems use something like only 100-200W. On a more modern system, I wouldn't use these.

mockingbird wrote on 2021-10-14, 02:01:

Did you look through that thread I linked to? Look through the posts and find a unit that has all Japanese caps in it as well a […]
Show full quote

AppleSauce wrote on 2021-10-14, 01:13:

Okay is there a specific model you can reccomend then?

Did you look through that thread I linked to? Look through the posts and find a unit that has all Japanese caps in it as well as a modern 5VSB circuit.

AppleSauce wrote on 2021-10-14, 01:48:

Hang on i totally forgot i had some spare psus would any of these be suitable?

You've got three "gutless wonders" there (power supplies that lack all the necessary circuitry and are built for the low-budget market) and a non-standard HP PSU (which probably has a different pinout and would fry your motherboard if you used it - and it won't fit in a standard ATX mount).

Let's have a look at the Nunan and the Codegen if you please (post some pics of the innards)- yes, I think you can make something work out of those two if they're not too cut back inside (if input protection is missing that's fine I suppose, but if they used bridges where the inductors should be in the PI filters then I would say no).

If one of them is adequate enough, then I'll help you with sourcing the caps.

Keep in mind that this is only ok for this situation because vintage systems use something like only 100-200W. On a more modern system, I wouldn't use these.

Oh right sorry I got confused and clicked on the badcaps link and only saw a post about the delta.

Yeah sure I'll take a few pictures of the innards and post them.

Here is the Numan

Here is the Codegen

AppleSauce wrote on 2021-10-14, 03:04:

Here is the Numan 20211014_135826.jpg […]
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Here is the Numan
20211014_135826.jpg

Here is the Codegen
20211014_135857.jpg

I would say go with the Numan (hello Numan!). It has more secondary filtering.

Take the two Teapo primary capacitors from the AOpen PSU and replace the two "HEC" primaries with them though.

You might also want to swap the fans and add a bit of oil into the fan bearing (non-detergent 5w30 does the trick mate).

I count 15 caps total, no big deal. Should be easy.

mockingbird wrote on 2021-10-14, 03:14:

I would say go with the Numan (hello Numan!). It has more secondary filtering. […]
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AppleSauce wrote on 2021-10-14, 03:04:

Here is the Numan 20211014_135826.jpg […]
Show full quote

Here is the Numan
20211014_135826.jpg

Here is the Codegen
20211014_135857.jpg

I would say go with the Numan (hello Numan!). It has more secondary filtering.

Take the two Teapo primary capacitors from the AOpen PSU and replace the two "HEC" primaries with them though.

You might also want to swap the fans and add a bit of oil into the fan bearing (non-detergent 5w30 does the trick mate).

I count 15 caps total, no big deal. Should be easy.

What's wrong with the HEC caps they seem fine?
Are they not reliable or something.

Also how can you tell the numan has more secondary filtering?

Im just wondering so I can learn bit more about psus.

AppleSauce wrote on 2021-10-14, 03:23:

What's wrong with the HEC caps they seem fine? Are they not reliable or something. […]
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What's wrong with the HEC caps they seem fine?
Are they not reliable or something.

Also how can you tell the numan has more secondary filtering?

Im just wondering so I can learn bit more about psus.

HEC isn't reliable... It's a third-tier brand, and third tier primary caps often measure 100-200uF less than their rating. There's also no telling how long they'll last. Teapo is a second-tier cap, and their primaries are on the whole much more reliable.

As for the secondary filtering on the Numan... I don't know, it seems beefier, but on second glance, I do see more another inductor in the secondary circuit of the Codegen... I would say use either PSU.

mockingbird wrote on 2021-10-14, 03:50:

AppleSauce wrote on 2021-10-14, 03:23:

What's wrong with the HEC caps they seem fine? Are they not reliable or something. […]
Show full quote

What's wrong with the HEC caps they seem fine?
Are they not reliable or something.

Also how can you tell the numan has more secondary filtering?

Im just wondering so I can learn bit more about psus.

HEC isn't reliable... It's a third-tier brand, and third tier primary caps often measure 100-200uF less than their rating. There's also no telling how long they'll last. Teapo is a second-tier cap, and their primaries are on the whole much more reliable.

As for the secondary filtering on the Numan... I don't know, it seems beefier, but on second glance, I do see more another inductor in the secondary circuit of the Codegen... I would say use either PSU.

Right gotcha

By the way what company is this logo on the chip im just curious.

AppleSauce wrote on 2021-10-14, 04:09:

By the way what company is this logo on the chip im just curious.

That's Fairchild Semiconductor. Fairly common IC used in PSUs.

mockingbird wrote on 2021-10-14, 04:37:

AppleSauce wrote on 2021-10-14, 04:09:

By the way what company is this logo on the chip im just curious.

That's Fairchild Semiconductor. Fairly common IC used in PSUs.

Oh right fairchild that makes sense.

So the way I see the situation i can either recap the aopen but that's not reccomended, recap the codegen , use the codegen as is and risk playing psu russian roulette or I can buy another psu.

Is the 2-transistor 5VSB thingy such an issue , according to badcaps alot of psus from that era have it?

AppleSauce wrote on 2021-10-14, 04:53:

Oh right fairchild that makes sense.

So the way I see the situation i can either recap the aopen but that's not reccomended, recap the codegen , use the codegen as is and risk playing psu russian roulette or I can buy another psu.

Is the 2-transistor 5VSB thingy such an issue , according to badcaps alot of psus from that era have it?

I definitely wouldn't use the Codegen as-is... Those caps are at least 15-20 years old by now, and they weren't good to begin with.

For me personally, yes, the 2 transistor 5vsb circuit was why I didn't use my period correct Enermax... It's a beautiful PSU, and I might modify the circuit one day, but I can't live with the idea of having that part of my PSU bake while the PC is turned off.

I would humbly suggest you overcome your anathema and buy a modern PSU. Doesn't have to be anything fancy.... But yea, either that or re-cap the AOpen or the other two. The AOpen is better, but you will need to remove that glue. Easier said than done. I've done it a few times. Better set aside several hours for that chore alone.

mockingbird wrote on 2021-10-14, 05:15:

I definitely wouldn't use the Codegen as-is... Those caps are at least 15-20 years old by now, and they weren't good to begin w […]
Show full quote

AppleSauce wrote on 2021-10-14, 04:53:

Oh right fairchild that makes sense.

So the way I see the situation i can either recap the aopen but that's not reccomended, recap the codegen , use the codegen as is and risk playing psu russian roulette or I can buy another psu.

Is the 2-transistor 5VSB thingy such an issue , according to badcaps alot of psus from that era have it?

I definitely wouldn't use the Codegen as-is... Those caps are at least 15-20 years old by now, and they weren't good to begin with.

For me personally, yes, the 2 transistor 5vsb circuit was why I didn't use my period correct Enermax... It's a beautiful PSU, and I might modify the circuit one day, but I can't live with the idea of having that part of my PSU bake while the PC is turned off.

I would humbly suggest you overcome your anathema and buy a modern PSU. Doesn't have to be anything fancy.... But yea, either that or re-cap the AOpen or the other two. The AOpen is better, but you will need to remove that glue. Easier said than done. I've done it a few times. Better set aside several hours for that chore alone.

I'll probably recap the aopen then.

Now I just need to figure out what exact replacement caps I need for the motherboard.

Re: Recapping an abit bf6

This post mentioned panasonic FR? So I guess I'll just go with all panasonic FRs then?