MJay99 wrote on 2022-03-16, 18:38:You can find it in this post:
Re: Newly made Gravis Ultrasound compatible cards ... what's the degree of interest?
thanks a mil for that MJay99!
terryfi wrote on 2022-03-16, 16:59:I really hope some of folks here pull up their sleeves and do the non-commercial release/production. The target of 200 USD final cost is reasonable IMO
You might think that's reasonable, but if you use thoughtfully-selected, quality components, add in the cost of board production, assembly/testing time and a small margin for those involved, it adds up quite quickly. In small quantities, just the parts can add up to $200 or more, if using a quality SIMM socket, headers for other options, the instrument bank ROM, shipping for each of the orders, etc.
640K!enough wrote on 2022-03-16, 20:23:terryfi wrote on 2022-03-16, 16:59:I really hope some of folks here pull up their sleeves and do the non-commercial release/production. The target of 200 USD final cost is reasonable IMO
You might think that's reasonable, but if you use thoughtfully-selected, quality components, add in the cost of board production, assembly/testing time and a small margin for those involved, it adds up quite quickly. In small quantities, just the parts can add up to $200 or more, if using a quality SIMM socket, headers for other options, the instrument bank ROM, shipping for each of the orders, etc.
Let's say the first batch is 100 quantity, there is no way total cost of parts per unit exceed 100 USD, add another 100 for testing and assembly, as others suggested the aim to have small margin, non commercialized product.
I personally prefer to buy the kit, assemble and test it myself but I also understand some folks don't want to risk 100 USD or more for DIY and prefer to buy a finished product.
I have the equipment to properly assemble a board myself, but the cost of the equipment itself would be on the order of several hundred dollars and does not include training or years of practice. A $100 build fee is reasonable.
If the boards are ever mass produced as a kit, I hope that all of the tiny SMD components will come pre-spldered from the PCB manufacturer. There should be no need to solder those by hand.
We'd need an actual Schedule of Costs in order to turn our vague price suppositions (suppositories?? 🤣 ) into more accurate presumptions.
From an enthusiast layperson ( again, 🤣 ) point of view, it seems like PCB production and generic component placement is not a wheel this project needs to reinvent, as those things are a relatively cheap commodity service these days. JLCPCB, and the like. Right?
So I assume one of the more expensive sticking-points is regarding the main ICs - the Interwave or what-have-you - and the logistics of their sourcing and installation onto the boards. With all that surrounds that - the equipment, the testing, the supply logistics and costs.
Along with standard business administration: operating as a small business, handling finance and taxes, Customs forms, the shipping to customers, complaints, returns, support, ...
Thermalwrong, we haven't heard any updates of your design for some time.
Even with latest developments in Argus, we are still far from seeing it released to public; so your project is a good alternative for DIYers.
Thermalwrong wrote on 2022-01-02, 21:58:Another day spent on GUSt :D GUSt Progress 2nd January 2022.png […]
Another day spent on GUSt 😁
GUSt Progress 2nd January 2022.pngTo-Do list:
PNP EEPROM
Line In, Mic and Line Out sections
Gameport & 3.5mm jack placement
Resistors & capacitors
Routing traces 😁
If somebody needs a buyer to fill up their parts order needs, and is ready to put together several of them, sign me up for one card of these too as well please. Thanks!
terryfi wrote on 2022-03-16, 21:58:Let's say the first batch is 100 quantity, there is no way total cost of parts per unit exceed 100 USD, add another 100 for testing and assembly, as others suggested the aim to have small margin, non commercialized product.
I've built a few of these, and I can tell you without any doubt, that unless you are shopping for bargain-basement parts from any supplier at all, you are not going to be able to source all of the components for a small number of boards for $100 or less per unit. Even if that were the case, you're then (hypothetically) offering $100 for time, effort, testing and assembly. What about the board itself? Even from the likes of JLC, a board of this size isn't free. Surely, shock__ also needs to be rewarded for his effort, etc., in addition to the new volunteer; everything adds up (rather quickly).
If others keep telling people what their time, effort and products are worth or should sell for, sooner or later, you won't find anyone willing to take on such projects, or share the resulting goodies. The way it should work is that they name their price, and you decide whether it is reasonable to you, and whether you will make a purchase at that price. The alternative, of course, is that you do it all yourself, from scratch, and gain an understanding of how much time and effort is involved.
terryfi wrote on 2022-03-16, 21:58:I personally prefer to buy the kit, assemble and test it myself but I also understand some folks don't want to risk 100 USD or more for DIY and prefer to buy a finished product.
Here again, if you read some of the history of the project, you will see that existing contributors to the project get priority on the production run, unless something has changed. The arrangement has always been bare boards, with InterWave IC; no kits were ever announced, nor assembled boards, unless the person who may handle distribution wants to change that, and can come to an agreement with shock__.
That's all I have to say on the matter.
The specialist skills needed to make these, vs the designer's anti-profiteering wish (which I quite understand, being somewhat of anti-commercial mindset myself), does logically leave only a certain window of business opportunity.
Somebody just needs to make the necessary business case, and decide what the price needs to be, and whether or not there's sufficient market for it.
Obviously any such card would get automatic, free marketing from the entire community. LGR and everybody else would be featuring it in an instant. You'd probably have a million eyeballs on it within a fortnight. How that would translate to sales, I've no idea whatsoever.\
I imagine the Orpheus card would prove to be a not-dissimilar case study, business wise. A lot of the same paths would be walked.
640K!enough wrote on 2022-03-18, 19:33:If others keep telling people what their time, effort and products are worth or should sell for, sooner or later, you won't find anyone willing to take on such projects, or share the resulting goodies. The way it should work is that they name their price, and you decide whether it is reasonable to you, and whether you will make a purchase at that price.
Perfectly put and it is so sad that this needs to be so often re-stated. That "pressure" on prices for niche hardware made by fellow hobbyists is so weird to me. You don't *need* a modern recreation of an old soundcard. We're not talking thousands of dollars or people trying to make an indecent profit on a necessity. You're not dealing with a big-ass company. And for those hardware I ended up purchasing, I've only met incredible, passionate individuals that went above and beyond any paid professional support.
Thanks to those that keep the dream alive, and hope for many new projects to come up and for those behind them to get a little something back for the invested time.
just saw this on LGR Blerbs. if this project ever goes anywhere, or anyone makes more of these, i would really like to buy one.
I understand community effort and contribution but it doesn't justify the attitude of "you can't suggest a price or ask for some alternatives for DIYers".
I know that I can do the retracing, thanks for suggesting the obvious. I professionally work with PCB layout engineers but I don't need to spend all the time and effort,
when we already have case of GUSAR and some others retracing original GUS PNP, it is just matter of time similar clone boards become accessible again, at least for someone who can solder the giant QFP IC.
By purchasing such boards I would be not fair to ARGUS contributors' effort but how long can someone wait to get modern recreation of GUS?
To back up the cost range that I suggested earlier; I refer you to the creator's comments from LGR blerbs video below:
Gehtklar Meister
6 days ago
@Kaitlyn L $150-$200 would require at least putting kits together and would then be kinda "financially restrictive" in my book. $50 kits would only cover materials and allow no margin. Soldering complete cards ... nopes, definitely off the limits for me to consider the project fun instead of work (I think I soldered 3 for others so far and found it kinda meh).
640K!enough wrote on 2022-03-18, 19:33:I've built a few of these, and I can tell you without any doubt, that unless you are shopping for bargain-basement parts from an […]
terryfi wrote on 2022-03-16, 21:58:Let's say the first batch is 100 quantity, there is no way total cost of parts per unit exceed 100 USD, add another 100 for testing and assembly, as others suggested the aim to have small margin, non commercialized product.
I've built a few of these, and I can tell you without any doubt, that unless you are shopping for bargain-basement parts from any supplier at all, you are not going to be able to source all of the components for a small number of boards for $100 or less per unit. Even if that were the case, you're then (hypothetically) offering $100 for time, effort, testing and assembly. What about the board itself? Even from the likes of JLC, a board of this size isn't free. Surely, shock__ also needs to be rewarded for his effort, etc., in addition to the new volunteer; everything adds up (rather quickly).
If others keep telling people what their time, effort and products are worth or should sell for, sooner or later, you won't find anyone willing to take on such projects, or share the resulting goodies. The way it should work is that they name their price, and you decide whether it is reasonable to you, and whether you will make a purchase at that price. The alternative, of course, is that you do it all yourself, from scratch, and gain an understanding of how much time and effort is involved.
terryfi wrote on 2022-03-16, 21:58:I personally prefer to buy the kit, assemble and test it myself but I also understand some folks don't want to risk 100 USD or more for DIY and prefer to buy a finished product.
Here again, if you read some of the history of the project, you will see that existing contributors to the project get priority on the production run, unless something has changed. The arrangement has always been bare boards, with InterWave IC; no kits were ever announced, nor assembled boards, unless the person who may handle distribution wants to change that, and can come to an agreement with shock__.
That's all I have to say on the matter.
Do we have an actual BOM, in order to make vague assumptions into real figures?
Personally I would like to see a minimal/modular business arrangement. Keeping rote basic soldering work mostly away from the seller's responsibility. Because that is where the costs really skyrocket.
So, the retail simply sells the board_with_chip, + BOM/schematic. Which then allows for more modest margin, in keeping with author wishes to keep costs down.
Cheap automated fab is the only way to get components (e.g. smd) onto board at cheap cost. If that is an option, then sure, I'll take it. But, as soon as seller needs to personally touch soldering iron, I would expect buyer costs to immediately go way up.
If somebody else wants to set up another side-business to provide 3rd-party soldering services, and charge whatever they like, then nobody is stopping that operating on the open market.
Shreddoc wrote on 2022-03-21, 21:06:Do we have an actual BOM, in order to make vague assumptions into real figures? […]
Do we have an actual BOM, in order to make vague assumptions into real figures?
Personally I would like to see a minimal/modular business arrangement. Keeping rote basic soldering work mostly away from the seller's responsibility. Because that is where the costs really skyrocket.
So, the retail simply sells the board_with_chip, + BOM/schematic. Which then allows for more modest margin, in keeping with author wishes to keep costs down.
Cheap automated fab is the only way to get components (e.g. smd) onto board at cheap cost. If that is an option, then sure, I'll take it. But, as soon as seller needs to personally touch soldering iron, I would expect buyer costs to immediately go way up.
If somebody else wants to set up another side-business to provide 3rd-party soldering services, and charge whatever they like, then nobody is stopping that operating on the open market.
The link to the BOM was posted a few replies up. Here it is again:
Re: Newly made Gravis Ultrasound compatible cards ... what's the degree of interest?
cyclone3d wrote on 2022-03-22, 00:00:Shreddoc wrote on 2022-03-21, 21:06:Do we have an actual BOM, in order to make vague assumptions into real figures? […]
Do we have an actual BOM, in order to make vague assumptions into real figures?
Personally I would like to see a minimal/modular business arrangement. Keeping rote basic soldering work mostly away from the seller's responsibility. Because that is where the costs really skyrocket.
So, the retail simply sells the board_with_chip, + BOM/schematic. Which then allows for more modest margin, in keeping with author wishes to keep costs down.
Cheap automated fab is the only way to get components (e.g. smd) onto board at cheap cost. If that is an option, then sure, I'll take it. But, as soon as seller needs to personally touch soldering iron, I would expect buyer costs to immediately go way up.
If somebody else wants to set up another side-business to provide 3rd-party soldering services, and charge whatever they like, then nobody is stopping that operating on the open market.
The link to the BOM was posted a few replies up. Here it is again:
Re: Newly made Gravis Ultrasound compatible cards ... what's the degree of interest?
Thanks. I had a look. The Mouser parts availability varies by country. For me right now, there are 4 parts reported "unavailable" and a further 6 reported as "very long lead time". With the remaining available components totalling about USD35. So I guess 50-100 USD total parts cost is the (very vague) ballpark. Sounds about right. I don't know about the main chip.
There is also that one part that is out of stock and just be ordered in quantities of 2000.
Kahenraz wrote on 2022-03-22, 10:10:There is also that one part that is out of stock and just be ordered in quantities of 2000.
The op-amp can be replaced by other parts, either from mouser or digikey or even the MS6308 that's available from utsource (where you'll have to get the mask rom from, if you go for that version).
Kahenraz wrote on 2022-03-22, 10:10:There is also that one part that is out of stock and just be ordered in quantities of 2000.
For mass production we don't need to rely on Mouser or Digikey, other suppliers usually give better quotes and have better availability for these old parts. Some of them should reputable enough to provide quality non-fake parts.
By the way I am not sure if anyone has suggested a crowdfunding / Kickstarter for production. This way at least project would have a secure financial backing, one less thing to worry about.
Also, take in consideration what Gehtklar Meister mentioned in the comments of the LGR blerb video:
Oh ... and a proposal that would instantly make me go open source... if there's any FPGA designer who can synthesize an InterWave compatible design, I'd love to adapt the layout of the ARGUS. Since that would allow to flood the market with inexpensive clones. Not gonna happen that easily with the current status tho... since InterWave chips have become kinda hard to obtain as well - this project uses new old stock I obtained before/while starting the project which is a limiting factor.
and:
Die-Shots of the InterWave exist, but haven't been vectorized to my knowledge. I actually donated a working chip to someone to decap and photograph it ... inside you can still the project name "AMaDeus" which was what the InterWave was called during development along with some PCB art resembling a tenor
The GUSpnp is quite a complex card, I wonder if it will ever be possible to reimplement it at a reasonable cost. If flooding the market with inexpensive GUSses were the goal, it would be better to recreate the functionality of the original GUS. What it needs to do is well known (because of all the emulators that implement it) and the Interwave functionality does not offer that much. Trackers that can use it also support a variety of other sound cards really well, and the in-game support and MIDI functions are done way better with other sound cards…
