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Geforce4 vs Geforce5 with athlon 64

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Reply 40 of 63, by bloodem

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Nemo1985 wrote on 2022-06-20, 01:01:

bloodem, do you have the chance to test your board with a fx 5900?

Well, as I already mentioned, this build already has a GeForce FX 5900XT and it works perfectly (so it would definitely also work with a non-XT version which is in fact supported by driver version 45.23 by default).
Unfortunately I can't do other tests right now, because this PC is in storage in a different city.

What if you use an older VIA 4in1 version? I don't remember for sure, but I think I've installed 4.56 on this particular system.

1 x PLCC-68 / 2 x PGA132 / 5 x Skt 3 / 9 x Skt 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Skt 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Skt 370 / 8 x Skt A / 2 x Skt 478 / 2 x Skt 754 / 3 x Skt 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current PC: Ryzen 7 5800X3D
Backup PC: Core i7 7700k

Reply 41 of 63, by swaaye

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I think you need 30 series and older drivers to avoid the 3DMark and texture filtering optimizations. So Geforce FX can't escape it completely. But if you play pre-D3D9 games the filtering tweaks aren't something you will notice without knowing exactly what to look for or do screenshot comparisons.

On the other hand, 😀, if you for some crazy reason want to play D3D9 heavy games on a GeForce FX you will suffer horrible performance and also with some games you will find some ugly shader replacements that Nvidia did to eek out playable performance from the chips. So some games will both run faster and look better on a Radeon 9500+ and GF6.

Though GF6 and GF7 are subject to the texture filtering hacks too, you can enable High Quality mode on later drivers. The only time I remember this being essential for me was Oblivion's snow.

Reply 42 of 63, by Nemo1985

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bloodem wrote on 2022-06-20, 16:06:
Well, as I already mentioned, this build already has a GeForce FX 5900XT and it works perfectly (so it would definitely also wor […]
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Nemo1985 wrote on 2022-06-20, 01:01:

bloodem, do you have the chance to test your board with a fx 5900?

Well, as I already mentioned, this build already has a GeForce FX 5900XT and it works perfectly (so it would definitely also work with a non-XT version which is in fact supported by driver version 45.23 by default).
Unfortunately I can't do other tests right now, because this PC is in storage in a different city.

What if you use an older VIA 4in1 version? I don't remember for sure, but I think I've installed 4.56 on this particular system.

Started form scratch again but I doubt the issue is with the 4in1. During the windows installation the phase where the system checks the components it's very slow, even the icon has slow movements. I installed just the video driver and then windows throwed an error: A tatal exception 0E at 0337:00006E8B. I swapped the memory from 512mb to 256, but no joy. I also tried the system without the sound card (audigy), no changes. My bios version is 1017.
If you have time, could you tell me which bios and what settings are you using? I had the 1017 and tried the 1018.02, then I tried the 1009 and the motherboard became a brick (probably it's too old for the rev2) lucky enough I have an eeprom burner.
If I can't solve the issue I won't be able to test anything further

Reply 43 of 63, by bloodem

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Just checked my driver archive, and I have a folder titled "A8V Deluxe".
Inside this folder I have multiple VIA 4in1 drivers, and one of them is named: TESTED-GOOD_VIA_HyperionPro_V512A.zip

I usually add the TESTED-GOOD_ prefix, whenever I encounter issues with a motherboard/platform and find a driver that specifically fixes those issues/is stable. So, it would be a good idea for you to test this driver as well.
Also, I highly recommend doing another fresh Win98 installation and then creating a Norton Ghost image before installing any drivers. This will allow you to play with all sorts of driver combinations until you find one that works (without wasting time with a fresh new windows installation each time).

Unfortunately I have no way of knowing what BIOS revision I was using, since, as I mentioned, this PC is in a different city. It's very possible that I will travel there sometime next month (and since I was actually planning on doing some new benchmarks on this PC anyway, I will also be able to give you more details regarding its configuration - if you will still need it at that point).

Last edited by bloodem on 2022-07-10, 17:37. Edited 1 time in total.

1 x PLCC-68 / 2 x PGA132 / 5 x Skt 3 / 9 x Skt 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Skt 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Skt 370 / 8 x Skt A / 2 x Skt 478 / 2 x Skt 754 / 3 x Skt 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current PC: Ryzen 7 5800X3D
Backup PC: Core i7 7700k

Reply 44 of 63, by Nemo1985

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bloodem wrote on 2022-06-21, 05:06:
Just checked my driver archive, and I have a folder titled "A8V Deluxe". Inside this folder I have a multiple VIA 4in1 drivers, […]
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Just checked my driver archive, and I have a folder titled "A8V Deluxe".
Inside this folder I have a multiple VIA 4in1 drivers, and one of them is named: TESTED-GOOD_VIA_HyperionPro_V512A.zip

I usually add the TESTED-GOOD_ prefix, whenever I encounter issues with a motherboard/platform and find a driver that specifically fixes those issues/is stable. So, it would be a good idea for you to test this driver as well.
Also, I highly recommend doing another fresh Win98 installation and then creating a Norton Ghost image before installing any drivers. This will allow you to play with all sorts of driver combinations until you find one that works (without wasting time with a fresh new windows installation each time).

Unfortunately I have no way of knowing what BIOS revision I was using, since, as I mentioned, this PC is in a different city. It's very possible that I will travel there sometime next month (and since I was actually planning on doing some new benchmarks on this PC anyway, I will also be able to give you more details regarding its configuration - if you will still need it at that point).

Thank you very much for the tip, I will try the 512a and report back in the next days.

Reply 45 of 63, by Nemo1985

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It's a no go, I started from a clean version of windows (once again), tried to install the VIA_HyperionPro_V512A.zip, which they install the agp drivers ONLY (not ide and anything else).
As always the crash and hangs up start as soon I install the nvidia drivers.
I really don't know if the problem is in my hand or there are compatibility quirks. Tomorrow I should receive the push pins so I will be able to test the other 5900 xt.

Reply 46 of 63, by bloodem

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What BIOS version are you using? If you are using an earlier version, try and do an upgrade. If, on the other hand, you are using a newer version, try and do a downgrade.
Anyway, I am actually playing right now with two Asus K8V-X SE rev 1.03 boards (socket 754), and I myself ran into some pretty wild issues that I was able to solve in a very unconventional manner. I will actually create a separate thread about it (when I find the time to write what will probably be a Jules Verne novel).

Bottom line, there seem to be multiple revisions of these chipsets (K8T800 / K8T800 PRO), and even though two boards might look identical, with the exact same revision, they might actually behave very differently because they have a different North Bridge.

1 x PLCC-68 / 2 x PGA132 / 5 x Skt 3 / 9 x Skt 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Skt 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Skt 370 / 8 x Skt A / 2 x Skt 478 / 2 x Skt 754 / 3 x Skt 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current PC: Ryzen 7 5800X3D
Backup PC: Core i7 7700k

Reply 47 of 63, by Nemo1985

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bloodem wrote on 2022-06-28, 14:59:

What BIOS version are you using? If you are using an earlier version, try and do an upgrade. If, on the other hand, you are using a newer version, try and do a downgrade.
Anyway, I am actually playing right now with two Asus K8V-X SE rev 1.03 boards (socket 754), and I myself ran into some pretty wild issues that I was able to solve in a very unconventional manner. I will actually create a separate thread about it (when I find the time to write what will probably be a Jules Verne novel).

Bottom line, there seem to be multiple revisions of these chipsets (K8T800 / K8T800 PRO), and even though two boards might look identical, with the exact same revision, they might actually behave very differently because they have a different North Bridge.

That's a good catch, about the bios, I posted earlier: "I had the 1017 and tried the 1018.02, then I tried the 1009 and the motherboard bricked, because probably it was too old for the revision 2.
If you still plan to visit the city where you have the pc, I will wait for further advice about your configuration (bios version, mainly?), tomorrow I will try the other 5900 xt just in case and report back.
I'm curious to read your quirks about the mb on socket 754.
Thank you for your help.

Reply 48 of 63, by Joseph_Joestar

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bloodem wrote on 2022-06-28, 14:59:

Anyway, I am actually playing right now with two Asus K8V-X SE rev 1.03 boards (socket 754), and I myself ran into some pretty wild issues that I was able to solve in a very unconventional manner. I will actually create a separate thread about it (when I find the time to write what will probably be a Jules Verne novel).

I'm curious about this as well. It seems that some socket 754 and 939 motherboards are prone to issues with Win9x.

That said, I really like how my own Athlon64 system turned out, but I certainly had my share of problems until I got it to work just right. For this reason, I'm hesitant to recommend these systems to people who are just starting out with their retro builds. They are fantastic once you get everything working, but achieving that can be quite a challenge.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 49 of 63, by Nemo1985

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Personally I had no issues at all with the geforce 4. The latest 4in1 works fine, to get them installed properly I just had to remove the first voice (the one about inf files).

Reply 50 of 63, by Nemo1985

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Bump! Apparently the Asus v9950ge works fine! So it's an incompatibility with the Leadtek WinFast A350XT?

I was able to complete the tests, in windows the fx is overall faster, in dos it is par with the gf4.
I still don't pubblish the results because... they are tricky, how is it possible that enabling AA4 and AF8 at 1024 has almost no impact on performance? Is it right? I tried the AA8x and yes they decrease.
Nvidia has been so good with FX series with aa and af optimization?

Reply 51 of 63, by Nemo1985

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So those are the definitive results, I wanted to try also newer driver, but starting from version 56, after the installation the drivers complain about the auxiliary power of the geforce fx not being connected (while it is, I also tried another psu just to be sure). The performance with such warning are obviously lower, while I had no issues with v45 of the drivers.

The attachment photo_2022-07-01_12-03-52.jpg is no longer available

I will test both fx cards on another platform (my universal pentium 4 which I use for video card testing.

Edit: both cards works fine with the pentium 4 configuration. I do start to wonder if it is worth the hassle to use the athlon 64 with windows 98, despite of the good Phil's says.
Do you know if it is possible to use a sata ssd with windows 98?

Reply 52 of 63, by Ydee

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Nemo1985 wrote on 2022-06-28, 14:44:

It's a no go, I started from a clean version of windows (once again), tried to install the VIA_HyperionPro_V512A.zip, which they install the agp drivers ONLY (not ide and anything else).
As always the crash and hangs up start as soon I install the nvidia drivers.
I really don't know if the problem is in my hand or there are compatibility quirks. Tomorrow I should receive the push pins so I will be able to test the other 5900 xt.

I remember also having problems with nVidia cards, W98SE and VIA chipsets. It helped to NOT install an agp driver from 4in1 and Hyperions (I tried different versions) and install the nVidia driver itself. With the VIA agp driver either falling after the installation of nVidia Windows drivers, there was a black screen with or without a cursor, or a report of an incorrectly configured adapter popping up.

Reply 53 of 63, by bloodem

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Nemo1985 wrote on 2022-07-01, 10:04:

Edit: both cards works fine with the pentium 4 configuration. I do start to wonder if it is worth the hassle to use the athlon 64 with windows 98, despite of the good Phil's says.
Do you know if it is possible to use a sata ssd with windows 98?

It's definitely worth it, but it might not always be as straightforward as we'd like. 😀
An incompatibility with the WinFast A350XT is out of the question, since I'm actually using the same card on the same motherboard. 🤣

All in all, once you get it going, it's a very nice, fast and stable platform. But it's clear that, by that point, VIA did not care about Windows 98 anymore... so depending on the exact motherboard / bios version / video card / video card driver combo that you're using, there is a pretty high chance of running into issues.

1 x PLCC-68 / 2 x PGA132 / 5 x Skt 3 / 9 x Skt 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Skt 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Skt 370 / 8 x Skt A / 2 x Skt 478 / 2 x Skt 754 / 3 x Skt 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current PC: Ryzen 7 5800X3D
Backup PC: Core i7 7700k

Reply 54 of 63, by Nemo1985

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bloodem wrote on 2022-07-01, 12:13:
It's definitely worth it, but it might not always be as straightforward as we'd like. :-) An incompatibility with the WinFast A3 […]
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Nemo1985 wrote on 2022-07-01, 10:04:

Edit: both cards works fine with the pentium 4 configuration. I do start to wonder if it is worth the hassle to use the athlon 64 with windows 98, despite of the good Phil's says.
Do you know if it is possible to use a sata ssd with windows 98?

It's definitely worth it, but it might not always be as straightforward as we'd like. 😀
An incompatibility with the WinFast A350XT is out of the question, since I'm actually using the same card on the same motherboard. 🤣

All in all, once you get it going, it's a very nice, fast and stable platform. But it's clear that, by that point, VIA did not care about Windows 98 anymore... so depending on the exact motherboard / bios version / video card / video card driver combo that you're using, there is a pretty high chance of running into issues.

Uhm that makes me wonder. Where the problem could be? My A350XT works fine in the p4 machine so it's not broken... could you please share a copy of your bios when you have the chance? It's a long shot but... I have no clues why it works flawlessy for you and not for me...

Reply 55 of 63, by bloodem

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Nemo1985 wrote on 2022-07-01, 13:53:

Uhm that makes me wonder. Where the problem could be? My A350XT works fine in the p4 machine so it's not broken... could you please share a copy of your bios when you have the chance? It's a long shot but... I have no clues why it works flawlessy for you and not for me...

OK, I'm back in my hometown and, as promised, I played with the Asus A8V Deluxe build.
I even went ahead and reinstalled the OS from scratch: just as I remember it, everything is working perfectly.

FULL SYSTEM SPECS:
MB: Asus A8V Deluxe / BIOS version: 1017
RAM: 1 GB DDR400 single channel
VGA: Leadtek WinFast A350XT GeForce FX5900XT
SOUND: Yamaha YMF724F-V
HDD: Seagate 80 GB PATA

What I installed (in the exact order I installed them)
1. PATCHMEM (more on this later!)
2. DirectX 8.1
3. VIA HyperionPro V5.12A (only chipset & AGP drivers)
4. nVIDIA Detonator 45.23 (forced installation)
5. Yamaha 7x4 VXD sound drivers v4.07.1040

So, pretty basic stuff, nothing fancy, everything went smoothly, without any need for some kind of magical workaround. 😀

Now, regarding PATCHMEM, because I have 1 GB of RAM on this system, it was absolutely required in my case, since Win98 has issues with anything higher than 512 MB (at least, that's the general rule).
HOWEVER, just as I was installing it, a thought occurred to me: what if, even in your particular case, you still need to install PATCHMEM?

I know it shouldn't really be required when you only have 512 MB (which, again, is technically OK for Win98), however, in the past, I actually did encounter some motherboard/video card combos that, for some reason, when using 512 MB of memory, they completely refused to play nice together (unless I used PATCHMEM or lowered the memory capacity - at which point, all problems were completely solved). Furthermore, when that was happening, I was seeing the exact behavior that you're seeing: crash / instability immediately after installing the nVIDIA driver.

So, if you can, try and lower the memory capacity or install PATCHMEM, and see if this solves your problems. If not, this time I really am all out of ideas... 😁

1 x PLCC-68 / 2 x PGA132 / 5 x Skt 3 / 9 x Skt 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Skt 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Skt 370 / 8 x Skt A / 2 x Skt 478 / 2 x Skt 754 / 3 x Skt 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current PC: Ryzen 7 5800X3D
Backup PC: Core i7 7700k

Reply 56 of 63, by Nemo1985

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bloodem wrote on 2022-07-10, 17:52:
OK, I'm back in my hometown and, as promised, I played with the Asus A8V Deluxe build. I even went ahead and reinstalled the OS […]
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OK, I'm back in my hometown and, as promised, I played with the Asus A8V Deluxe build.
I even went ahead and reinstalled the OS from scratch: just as I remember it, everything is working perfectly.

FULL SYSTEM SPECS:
MB: Asus A8V Deluxe / BIOS version: 1017
RAM: 1 GB DDR400 single channel
VGA: Leadtek WinFast A350XT GeForce FX5900XT
SOUND: Yamaha YMF724F-V
HDD: Seagate 80 GB PATA

What I installed (in the exact order I installed them)
1. PATCHMEM (more on this later!)
2. DirectX 8.1
3. VIA HyperionPro V5.12A (only chipset & AGP drivers)
4. nVIDIA Detonator 45.23 (forced installation)
5. Yamaha 7x4 VXD sound drivers v4.07.1040

So, pretty basic stuff, nothing fancy, everything went smoothly, without any need for some kind of magical workaround. 😀

Now, regarding PATCHMEM, because I have 1 GB of RAM on this system, it was absolutely required in my case, since Win98 has issues with anything higher than 512 MB (at least, that's the general rule).
HOWEVER, just as I was installing it, a thought occurred to me: what if, even in your particular case, you still need to install PATCHMEM?

I know it shouldn't really be required when you only have 512 MB (which, again, is technically OK for Win98), however, in the past, I actually did encounter some motherboard/video card combos that, for some reason, when using 512 MB of memory, they completely refused to play nice together (unless I used PATCHMEM or lowered the memory capacity - at which point, all problems were completely solved). Furthermore, when that was happening, I was seeing the exact behavior that you're seeing: crash / instability immediately after installing the nVIDIA driver.

So, if you can, try and lower the memory capacity or install PATCHMEM, and see if this solves your problems. If not, this time I really am all out of ideas... 😁

Thank you for the feedback.
I done this test right now.
I use the latest beta bios as stated before, but I tried also the 1017, I installed the patchmem just to be sure.
Nothing helped, if I use the the WinFast A350XT, after video driver are installed the system crash. While with the Asus 5900GE the system works fine.
I do not know what to say other thant both cards works fine.
I suppose the motherboard just doesn't like the Winfast video card.
I think I will dismantle this build, I hardly see any sense to have it.

Reply 57 of 63, by Joseph_Joestar

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Nemo1985 wrote on 2022-08-04, 11:35:

I suppose the motherboard just doesn't like the Winfast video card.

Can you check the revision of your WinFast A350 card?

According to this review the earlier A2 revision had some performance issues (they don't specify what exactly). This was fixed in revision B2 and later.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 58 of 63, by Nemo1985

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-08-04, 11:58:
Nemo1985 wrote on 2022-08-04, 11:35:

I suppose the motherboard just doesn't like the Winfast video card.

Can you check the revision of your WinFast A350 card?

According to this review the earlier A2 revision had some performance issues (they don't specify what exactly). This was fixed in revision B2 and later.

Unlucky on my card there is Rev: D2, so I suppose it's not the issue, I also checked if there were any resource conflict but there isn't according to win98

Reply 59 of 63, by bloodem

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So strange... what should be (more or less) the same motherboard and the same video card, they don't work for you but they work for me perfectly. Yes, there are some revision differences, but It's hard to imagine that there are any radical changes between them (especially not something that would typically result in such a hard failure).
My Winfast A350XT cards are both rev A2.

Probably a very long shot, but what PSU are you using? The Winfast A350XT draws most of its power from the 5V rail (through the molex connector - yes, it does not use the 12V rail like one might think, I've tested it by using a molex cable without a 5V connection).
Typically, if the card does not receive enough power, it will heavily throttle its clocks and display a warning message. But maybe something funky is happening in your particular case that ends up trigerring that instability/crash.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-08-04, 11:58:

According to this review the earlier A2 revision had some performance issues (they don't specify what exactly). This was fixed in revision B2 and later.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to that. They probably had a faulty card and assumed that it was because of the "earlier" revision.
Both of my rev A2 cards perform flawlessly and have had no issues with them.

1 x PLCC-68 / 2 x PGA132 / 5 x Skt 3 / 9 x Skt 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Skt 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Skt 370 / 8 x Skt A / 2 x Skt 478 / 2 x Skt 754 / 3 x Skt 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current PC: Ryzen 7 5800X3D
Backup PC: Core i7 7700k