VOGONS


First post, by kinetix

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Hello Vogonians
I want to show you an expansion card for XT that I found a while ago. It is one of the two main cards of the Acer 500+. I think it is one of the most "multi" multifunction card I have seen, as it includes:
-CGA/MGA/Hercules video controller with TTL and Composite Video outputs
-FDD
-Serial port
-Game port
-Parallel port
-Real Time Clock

However it has been cannibalized, it is missing several discrete components. One component even fell on my hand when I picked up the card from a pile of "electronic garbage" (trash for someone, a treasure for someone else), they were unsoldering!!
I´m posting one image of a full card, no the one I found, with some labels.
With the help of the few images I have found, I think I have identified all missing parts, except for one missing chip (??? in the image). The transistor on the top right I'm not entirely sure which one it is.
Have doubts about two others chips (? in the image).
The marking on the missing chip is three lines: 87G018A, 20V8-027-1-2AS, 8841.
After much searching I thought I had found a possible, minimal reference, but I lost it and have not found it again. I seem to remember that it said it was a multiplexer of some kind, but, again, the reference was not certain.
Following the traces it appears to be connected to the bus address lines (A21-A25) and has some indirect relationships with chips from several of the subsystems. It seems to me that it is the chip that controls which subsystem is served by the central unit at a given time, multiplexing each one.

Now, I was thinking about rebuilding the card later, since it is the only one I have of any type of video for 8-bit ISA, the oldest ones I have are VL-bus, and none ISA16. I am trying to rebuild and resurrect two XT systems with some historical relevance in my country, but they are very incomplete, and I need a video output. Here it is very, very difficult to get the necessary parts (I am visiting a recycling center once a month, and a friend there saves things for me, but it is very random what appears from before 2000 and little from before 1990)
As I think it would be almost impossible to find this chip in its physical form, or its equivalents, it would perhaps be better to find its schematic and pinout and perhaps make and adapt an substitute circuit. I want (hope) at least the video controller to work, maybe the FDD too. Meanwhile I´ll keep looking for some other compatible card.

So, if any kind soul has information about it, it would be appreciated.

Last edited by kinetix on 2024-09-13, 19:31. Edited 4 times in total.

Reply 1 of 32, by Tiido

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The 20V8 (the ???) chip is a programmable logic device and unfortunately if that is missing it will be challenging to get stuff going again since the logic in it has to be recreated and without knowing how the card is supposed to operate it can be a quite involved process.

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Reply 2 of 32, by kinetix

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Tiido wrote on 2024-01-04, 02:14:

The 20V8 (the ???) chip is a programmable logic device and unfortunately if that is missing it will be challenging to get stuff going again since the logic in it has to be recreated and without knowing how the card is supposed to operate it can be a quite involved process.

that was my biggest fear, that it was really a PAL / GAL or some custom chip (those cryptic markings pointed to that possibility). dont know why would any one want that chip, instead the common (and more useful) ones.
As I mentioned at the beginning, on an obscure page that I found (and lost), which mentioned what seemed to be that chip in that specific configuration, it said it was a multiplexer, but this is not sure.
I´ve some PALs floating around.
well, tough...

PS: whoever got the chip out, was really after the socket... and throw the chip... damm

Reply 3 of 32, by retrotechrestoration

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I recently acquired a complete Acer PC-500+. I'm currently preparing a write up comparing it to it's cousin the Franklin PC-8000. For a "clone", the differences between the two are striking. The Acer has two main cards...a CPU card and an I/O card. Here are some additional photos of the cards from both systems as well as some close-ups of the I/O card.

Considering how closely the I/O and CPU cards are integrated together, I'm not even sure the I/O card would work on it's own. Good luck!

Last edited by retrotechrestoration on 2024-02-29, 19:15. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 4 of 32, by retrotechrestoration

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And the jumper settings...

Reply 5 of 32, by kinetix

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retrotechrestoration wrote on 2024-02-29, 17:45:

I recently acquired a complete Acer PC-500+. I'm currently preparing a write up comparing it to it's cousin the Franklin PC-8000. For a "clone", the differences between the two are striking. The Acer has two main cards...a CPU card and an I/O card. Here are some additional photos of the cards from both systems as well as some close-ups of the I/O card.

Considering how closely the I/O and CPU cards are integrated together, I'm not even sure the I/O card would work on it's own. Good luck!

oooh!! thank you very much. I haven't reviewed vogons in days. a lot of common work and extra personal work in historical technological research. I hadn't seen these answers.

Is there a way to "read" a PAL, to replicate it in another PAL or GAL or PLD?

Reply 7 of 32, by kinetix

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retrotechrestoration wrote on 2024-02-29, 17:45:

Considering how closely the I/O and CPU cards are integrated together, I'm not even sure the I/O card would work on it's own

mmm, I think it would work, mostly..
but also it would not, if the main bios has specific controls for, for example, multiplexing the functions of the card, and it is not the card's own "intelligence."
need a real test

Reply 8 of 32, by kinetix

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From what I read, it can be done, in some PAL, if they do not have a "safety fuse".
Apparently the ones with the letter L (like the one used on the card) do not have internal registers, and they do not do additional "logic" (I will confirm this by looking at the datasheet), so their outputs depend on their inputs, which which makes the task of cloning them easier. and since I believe that this PAL is responsible for doing some multiplexing between the functions in the card , as told by the address bus to which it is connected, that can reaffirm this case.
So, if you happen to have an EPROM/PAL/GAL/etc. etc. programmer/reader, I would appreciate it if you do the experiment, if you could read it and dump the PAL. I have a DatamMan-40Pro and I will experiment with some PAL, GALs and PLDs that I have, with the ones it can be done. per its specifications, this programmer support de PAL20L8

My opinion about the chip being missing from my card is that someone wanted the socket. damn who it was,

Last edited by kinetix on 2024-03-03, 05:03. Edited 4 times in total.

Reply 9 of 32, by kinetix

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is there a way to read a PAL?
From what I read, it can be done, in some PAL, if they do not have a "safety fuse".
Apparently the ones with the letter L (like the one used on your card version) do not have internal registers and they do not do additional "logic" (I seem to confirm this by looking at the datasheet), so their outputs depend on their inputs, which which makes the task of cloning them even easier. and since I believe that this PAL is responsible for doing some multiplexing between the functions in the card , as told by the address bus to which it is connected, that can reaffirm this case.
So, if you happen to have an EPROM/PAL/GAL/etc. etc. programmer/reader, I would appreciate it if you do the experiment, if you could read it and dump the PAL. I have a DatamMan-40Pro and I will experiment with some PAL, GALs and PLDs that I have, with the ones it can be done. per its specifications, this programmer support de PAL20L8

My opinion about the chip being missing from my card is that someone wanted the socket. damn who it was,

Last edited by kinetix on 2024-03-02, 23:30. Edited 3 times in total.

Reply 10 of 32, by kinetix

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this is my card.
I´ve seen 3 slightly different versions, mainly in the stencil markings, and some resistors , capacitors and inductors missing or not. one have a 20V8 instead 20L8, so is a lot harder to reverse ing.
please, can you tell me the values of the components (missing in my card) indicated in the image?
or post some closeup images of each of these parts?
It is to make sure of the numbers using several examples (the other images I´ve found) for the reconstruction

Last edited by kinetix on 2024-03-02, 23:31. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 11 of 32, by weedeewee

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kinetix wrote on 2024-03-02, 21:18:
retrotechrestoration wrote on 2024-02-29, 17:45:

I recently acquired a complete Acer PC-500+. I'm currently preparing a write up comparing it to it's cousin the Franklin PC-8000. For a "clone", the differences between the two are striking. The Acer has two main cards...a CPU card and an I/O card. Here are some additional photos of the cards from both systems as well as some close-ups of the I/O card.

Considering how closely the I/O and CPU cards are integrated together, I'm not even sure the I/O card would work on it's own. Good luck!

oooh!! thank you very much. I haven't reviewed vogons in days. a lot of common work and extra personal work in historical technological research. I hadn't seen these answers.

Is there a way to "read" a PAL, to replicate it in another PAL or GAL or PLD?

Arduino-based combinatorial PAL dumper

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Reply 12 of 32, by kinetix

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weedeewee wrote on 2024-03-02, 23:22:
kinetix wrote on 2024-03-02, 21:18:
retrotechrestoration wrote on 2024-02-29, 17:45:

I recently acquired a complete Acer PC-500+. I'm currently preparing a write up comparing it to it's cousin the Franklin PC-8000. For a "clone", the differences between the two are striking. The Acer has two main cards...a CPU card and an I/O card. Here are some additional photos of the cards from both systems as well as some close-ups of the I/O card.

Considering how closely the I/O and CPU cards are integrated together, I'm not even sure the I/O card would work on it's own. Good luck!

oooh!! thank you very much. I haven't reviewed vogons in days. a lot of common work and extra personal work in historical technological research. I hadn't seen these answers.

Is there a way to "read" a PAL, to replicate it in another PAL or GAL or PLD?

Arduino-based combinatorial PAL dumper

interesting.
I don't have an Arduino, but a friend does. maybe I'll try it some day.
but I will try first with his DataMan , to see if it can do it. hope @retrotechrestoration can dump it.

Last edited by kinetix on 2024-03-02, 23:35. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 13 of 32, by retrotechrestoration

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kinetix wrote on 2024-03-02, 23:18:
this is my card. I´ve seen 3 slightly different versions, mainly in the stencil markings, and some resistors , capacitors and i […]
Show full quote

this is my card.
I´ve seen 3 slightly different versions, mainly in the stencil markings, and some resistors , capacitors and inductors missing or not. one have a 20V8 instead 20L8, so is a lot harder to reverse ing.
please, can you tell me the values of the components (missing in my card) indicated in the image?
or post some closeup images of each of these parts?
It is to make sure of the numbers using several examples (the other images I´ve found) for the reconstruction

I don't see an image.

Reply 14 of 32, by retrotechrestoration

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I have some good news and some bad news.

The good news it I plugged the card into my DTK Data-1000 XT clone and it appeared to work, albeit with an incorrect color palette .

The bad news is I have a TL866II and it doesn't support PAL chips...only GAL/CLD/PCLD.

I do have a MEGA 2560 arduino, but setting up the PALDump board will take some time. I'll let you know if I get it working.

Reply 15 of 32, by kinetix

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ups. sorry
here it is

Reply 16 of 32, by retrotechrestoration

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kinetix wrote on 2024-03-03, 03:59:

ups. sorry
here it is

All resistors are 5%
R3 - 47k
R5 - 20M
R6 - 10k
R17 - 220
R24 - 47k
R25 - 10k
R34 - 68
R35 - 330

C41 - 0.01 uF 100V ceramic
C50 - 270 pF 50V ceramic
C54 & c75 - 10 uF25V tantalum

Reply 17 of 32, by kinetix

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thank you so much. I am taking note.

Reply 18 of 32, by kinetix

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weedeewee wrote on 2024-03-02, 23:22:

well, I made some tests and I read several different PALs, GALs and PLDs with a Dataman-40Pro, all OK
then I saw this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoY64kw9qd8
this guy does an very simple adapter to read a PAL (16V8), as it was reading an EPROM.
maybe it cab be made a similar one for a different PAL/GAL /PLD for reading in a programmer that does not support some chip

Reply 19 of 32, by kinetix

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about the image in the wrong color, I have seen it happen other times. Even recently in a YouTube video of "Adrian Digital Basement" he had to try several motherboards so that the color was correct with a card he was testing.

I have already completed the work of putting all the missing components on the card, except the PAL and the 20Mohm resistor (I only have 2 of 10Mohm.... 5W Soviet S2-23-2 resistors, maybe connect them in series... . ha ha ha). There were also 3 diodes missing, the transistor (I used an equivalent BC548) and two other small ceramic capacitors. about the PAL, I wait for you, or another person who has this card and can dump its programming to replicate it. plus the EPROM, just in case.
One question, is that C50 really 270 pF? or 220 pF and you read it wrong?

finally. my card has what appears to be a postfactory fix. On the back it has a cut line and a bug wire. How is yours?