keropi wrote on 2025-02-04, 09:46:

Not dissing ESS but it has worst sound performance, no external opl3 support, no spdif , no 16bit audio for DOS some can be fixe […]
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GL1zdA wrote on 2025-02-04, 09:20:

Which CS4237 features are you missing in the ES1869?[...]

Not dissing ESS but it has worst sound performance, no external opl3 support, no spdif , no 16bit audio for DOS
some can be fixed externally by adding stuff but the quality performance and internal design cannot be fixed
but you gain more sbpro compatibilty with ESS so there's that 😀

By sound performance you mean SNR and similar parameters? Or are there other flaws?

As for external FM, what is the problem with the ESS? I remember you've used a creative way to connect the OPL3 to the CS4237 (via the CS9236 port?), I assume it's impossible on the ESS?

I've always believed "Windows Sound Support" in ESS datasheets meant DOS WSS support, but now I see it probably mean compatibility with the Windows mixer etc. What a bummer, never tested it and somehow missed there's no 16-bit DOS audio in DOS on the ESS.

keropi wrote on 2025-02-04, 11:44:

we are now entering the realm of workarounds, extra drivers and messing about with stuff 🤣

Well, the fully patched Heroes of Might and Magic 2 installation contains that driver, and it uses it for 16-bit audio with all AudioDrive cards. So you're basically just transplanting the newer driver to older games which use Miles.

keropi wrote on 2025-02-04, 11:44:

I will eventually test that miles driver with ES1869 - is there some easy game to test this that would run on my testbench 386DX system?

That system is probably too slow for games which use the newer Miles versions. I would recommend Mortal Kombat 3 and Master of Orion 2 as test cases. Both games work fine on my 1868F card with the aforementioned solution.

Crystal back then just had better technology , their DACs and ADCs were excellent for the time
ESS sounds good but not as good - it is a tech limitation (it does not mean it's bad or crappy , nothing like that - it's just with direct comparison to crystal it loses)
anyways we'll see if this still the case with the new protype - so far we followed the ESS recommendations but perhaps there is more to get from the chip 😉

there is no known way to completely disable ESFM - it always keeps coming back even if you move the FM port with unisound (that only affects adlib $388 - and I assume it has the same limitation as with the awe64 legacy, something tries to use FM via SB ports and the chip resets it's config or you get layered playback)

I also thought that ESS had a native WSS mode as well - the datasheets are misleading and the Windows Sound System stuff only refer to windows drivers... 🤣

GL1zdA wrote on 2025-02-04, 11:45:

I've always believed "Windows Sound Support" in ESS datasheets meant DOS WSS support, but now I see it probably mean compatibility with the Windows mixer etc. What a bummer, never tested it and somehow missed there's no 16-bit DOS audio in DOS on the ESS.

While WSS support doesn't exist on ESS cards (aside from there being a 16-bit Windows driver) the native AudioDrive mode does work and provides proper 16-bit audio. From what I've read, 688 and 1688 cards are supported by a decent number of games which use the Miles Sound System. However, 1868 (and possibly 1869) need an updated AUDIODRV.DIG driver to work in that mode:

On the plus side, you also get native (enhanced) ESFM with some Miles games:

Phil just made a video about that, and it has been discussed before in this thread: ESFM details

I can confirm Joseph_Joestar 's updated MILES driver info does indeed work with the ES1869 - just tested MK3 and it works fine by renaming the updated driver to "ADRV688.DIG" and replacing the old one

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-02-04, 12:10:

GL1zdA wrote on 2025-02-04, 11:45:

I've always believed "Windows Sound Support" in ESS datasheets meant DOS WSS support, but now I see it probably mean compatibility with the Windows mixer etc. What a bummer, never tested it and somehow missed there's no 16-bit DOS audio in DOS on the ESS.

While WSS support doesn't exist on ESS cards (aside from there being a 16-bit Windows driver) the native AudioDrive mode does work and provides proper 16-bit audio. From what I've read, 688 and 1688 cards are supported by a decent number of games which use the Miles Sound System. However, 1868 (and possibly 1869) need an updated AUDIODRV.DIG driver to work in that mode:

This is a nice addition, will have to look through the list of my "priority" games, that support it.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-02-04, 12:10:

On the plus side, you also get native (enhanced) ESFM with some Miles games.

Yes, I knew this one, nice, but non-sample based GM synths are more of a curiosity than quality solution (the VS1053 is another chip doing GM without samples, though this one has the patches on-board). I'm more excited about what Furnace users come up with after Koolness, since Furnace finally gives them tools to harness the ESFM.

keropi wrote on 2025-02-04, 12:40:

I can confirm Joseph_Joestar 's updated MILES driver info does indeed work with the ES1869 - just tested MK3 and it works fine by renaming the updated driver to "ADRV688.DIG" and replacing the old one

Nice! Technically, you can just copy over AUDIODRV.DIG without overwriting any existing drivers, and it should be selectable on the setup screen (albeit without any description text). That way, you can add the driver even to Miles games that don't support any ESS cards by default.

Also, you can copy over ESFM.MDI as well, to add native ESFM music support to such games. As an example, I was able to add both drivers to Privateer 2.

EDIT - I've attached the contents of the SOUND folder from my Heroes of Might and Magic 2 installation. It should have all the relevant drivers. The Miles Sound System version is 3.6B.

ah I had no idea the DIG file would be just picked up
do the ESS drivers for example always work or there are cases that weird things happen in games when they are added and used?

keropi wrote on 2025-02-04, 16:15:

ah I had no idea the DIG file would be just picked up
do the ESS drivers for example always work or there are cases that weird things happen in games when they are added and used?

If it's a relatively new version of Miles, it should just work. Rule of thumb, if the sound setup screen looks like my screenshots above, chances are you're good to go. But if it's an older version of Miles, it might not be so easy.

By the way, I've also had good success with copying over SNDSYS.DIG to enable Windows Sound System for Miles games that don't support it natively. Worked fine with my OPTi card.

Grzyb wrote on 2025-02-04, 11:19:

Is that a real problem? Can anybody actually hear the difference between ESS and true OPL3 ?

Yes, there are definite limitations to its compatibility. In fact, as demonstrated at the time, the MK8330 did a substantially better job at delivering OPL3-like sound. The ESS is passable, but if you know what something should sound like, you are not likely to be impressed. Simply put, Orpheus, PAS16 and the Ad Lib Gold still put it to shame when it comes to OPL3 sound. I have no experience with direct ESFM support, but direct support that made good use of it was limited, anyway.

On the PCM side, it is less flexible than most Crystal designs, and generally delivers lower playback quality. However, there may be ways to get interesting features out of it.

The lack of WSS support was a disappointment. The last thing we needed was another different, incompatible PCM sound standard, that required yet another set of drivers for 16-bit sound support under DOS. By the time they designed this thing, they should have understood that the major non-Creative standard was WSS, and just adopted that, unless they had something to offer that nobody else could. They had nothing to offer, but went their own way anyhow.

640K!enough wrote on 2025-02-04, 17:39:

On the PCM side, it is less flexible than most Crystal designs, and generally delivers lower playback quality. However, there may be ways to get interesting features out of it.

I also found the ESS chipset, as far as playback quality, to be inferior to the Yamaha YMF 71x series. Compatibility wise, with Sound Blaster, the ESS is excellent.

carlostex wrote on 2025-02-04, 18:05:

Compatibility wise, with Sound Blaster, the ESS is excellent.

This was my impression as well. That said, I did find a couple of games that didn't work correctly on my ESS 1868F.

Rambo 3 doesn't have any FM synth music. Bubble Bobble, Operation Wolf and Arkanoid may have similar issues, but I haven't tested those. What I did test quite a bit was Tyrian, which suffers from crackling and distortions when playing back digital audio.

keropi wrote on 2025-02-04, 12:00:

I also thought that ESS had a native WSS mode as well - the datasheets are misleading and the Windows Sound System stuff only refer to windows drivers... 🤣

That was a common catch at those times. The AD1816 datasheet also claims "Windows Sound System" support without supporting the AD1848 "WSS" interface. Especially with an Analog Devices chip that is kind-of a "successor to the AD1848 with integrated SB Pro support", it is somehow unexpected that there is no WSS hardware compatibility.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-02-04, 18:15:

What I did test quite a bit was Tyrian, which suffers from crackling and distortions when playing back digital audio.

I remember that on the Crystal chipsets, not so much on ESS. And on Yamaha YMF 71x i do not have those issues.

carlostex wrote on 2025-02-04, 21:42:

I remember that on the Crystal chipsets, not so much on ESS. And on Yamaha YMF 71x i do not have those issues.

I don't have any Crystal cards, but the Tyrian crackling issue is definitively present on my ESS 1868F as well as my Solo-1.

That's the reason why I have a YMF719 with James-F's low-pass filter mod in my main DOS rig.

640K!enough wrote on 2025-02-04, 17:39:

The lack of WSS support was a disappointment. The last thing we needed was another different, incompatible PCM sound standard, that required yet another set of drivers for 16-bit sound support under DOS. By the time they designed this thing, they should have understood that the major non-Creative standard was WSS, and just adopted that, unless they had something to offer that nobody else could. They had nothing to offer, but went their own way anyhow.

The target market for ESS (and Crystal and CMI for that matter) was OEMs. They wanted a cheap single chip design that worked fine under Windows (Compaq marketed it as "business audio") and was also SoundBlaster compatible. All these designs started out as a CODEC+FM chip, but later consolidated down into one with an integrated OPL3 clone.

Regarding Windows Sound System compatibility, even AMD marketed the Interwave as being such. It wasn't a lie since it had a CODEC that was register compatible with the CS4321 . Problem is that it wasn't sitting on port 534h by default! Had AMD and Gravis leveraged that, it would have made the lack of SoundBlaster compatibility less painful. That got me thinking, can the Interwave's CODEC be reprogrammed to port 534h via PnP? One could make the MK1869 XTREME WSS ready.... in theory.

640K!enough wrote on 2025-02-04, 17:39:

The lack of WSS support was a disappointment. The last thing we needed was another different, incompatible PCM sound standard, that required yet another set of drivers for 16-bit sound support under DOS. By the time they designed this thing, they should have understood that the major non-Creative standard was WSS, and just adopted that, unless they had something to offer that nobody else could. They had nothing to offer, but went their own way anyhow.

Well, I guess they wanted to keep it simple.

SB compatibility was a must, and adding WSS meant increased complexity - eg. another set of resources.
If the goal was to add 16-bit without using additional resources, there were two options:
- clone the SB16 - difficult, apparently Creative tried to prevent others from cloning anything above SB Pro
- do it their own way - hopefully nobody will ever need 16-bit sound in DOS...

I forgot to mention that the native AudioDrive mode is also supported by the HMI sound system:

However, excessive low-pass filtering seems to be applied in that case. Phil showcases it in this video.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-02-04, 22:12:

carlostex wrote on 2025-02-04, 21:42:

I remember that on the Crystal chipsets, not so much on ESS. And on Yamaha YMF 71x i do not have those issues.

I don't have any Crystal cards, but the Tyrian crackling issue is definitively present on my ESS 1868F as well as my Solo-1.

That's the reason why I have a YMF719 with James-F's low-pass filter mod in my main DOS rig.

I have tested Tyrian and did not notice any issues , where do you get the crackling? Was it present in setup or you had to play some time to make it happen?

keropi wrote on 2025-02-05, 05:43:

I have tested Tyrian and did not notice any issues , where do you get the crackling? Was it present in setup or you had to play some time to make it happen?

The crackling is easiest to spot while moving between the main menu options, but it does occur during gameplay as well. It's best to turn off music completely in setup so that it doesn't interfere. Here's a recording from my ESS 1868F:

You can hear some static/crackling after each sound plays. It's most prominent at the very end of the recording.