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PC for MT-32

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First post, by Baoran

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I am trying to find out what kind of pc would be best for using Roland MT-32 with. What would be highest system requirements in a dos game that support MT-32 but do not support general midi or MT-32 sound sounds much better compared to general midi so it is better to use MT-32 with the game.

So far Ultima 7 has been game with highest system requirement, which means about 486 33Mhz for it to play smoothly. Does anyone know any MT-32 games that need faster pc than that to work well?

Reply 1 of 26, by clueless1

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Strike Commander sounds better on MT-32 than GM and needs a Pentium to run smoothly. This is probably the most demanding MT-32 game. I played it on a 486/66 VLB system and it was borderline unplayable on certain maps with lots of enemies. No enemies around, it plays fine.

There's no problem using an MT-32 on a faster DOS PC. For the games that have issues, Setmul is the answer. 😉

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OPL3 FM vs. Roland MT-32 vs. General MIDI DOS Game Comparison
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Reply 2 of 26, by realnc

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That sounds about right. MT-32 games where a 486 33MHz wouldn't count as matching or exceeding the recommended system requirements are rare. I really only know of the aforementioned Strike Commander. However, given that you can slow down a Pentium to 486 and 386 levels, I tend to recommend a Pentium instead. I'm not sure if you can slow it down to 286 and 808x levels though, for games that run too fast on 386 and up.

Reply 3 of 26, by clueless1

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realnc wrote:

That sounds about right. MT-32 games where a 486 33MHz wouldn't count as matching or exceeding the recommended system requirements are rare. I really only know of the aforementioned Strike Commander. However, given that you can slow down a Pentium to 486 and 386 levels, I tend to recommend a Pentium instead. I'm not sure if you can slow it down to 286 and 808x levels though, for games that run too fast on 386 and up.

I don't think it's possible. Maybe with a terrible ISA card, downclocking, and slow memory timings? But even a fast 486/66 can get down to 286 speeds with combinations of Turbo switch, cache disabling and slower memory timings--without resorting to downclocking the cpu frequency.

The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.
OPL3 FM vs. Roland MT-32 vs. General MIDI DOS Game Comparison
Let's benchmark our systems with cache disabled
DOS PCI Graphics Card Benchmarks

Reply 4 of 26, by PARUS

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The 11th Hour is a game which sounds on LA much better than on GM. For run with best video quality it requires a Pentium machine.

I use MT-32 with my Core 2 Duo system and have fun. And I don't understand why to build slow machine if I can throttle a fast machine.

Reply 5 of 26, by realnc

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clueless1 wrote:

I don't think it's possible. Maybe with a terrible ISA card, downclocking, and slow memory timings? But even a fast 486/66 can get down to 286 speeds with combinations of Turbo switch, cache disabling and slower memory timings--without resorting to downclocking the cpu frequency.

In this case, one of the usual TSR tools for slowing down games will probably work just fine. These old games are always using real mode anyway, so these TSRs should be working fine.

PARUS wrote:

I use MT-32 with my Core 2 Duo system and have fun. And I don't understand why to build slow machine if I can throttle a fast machine.

I assume that the OP wants to use an ISA sound card and a PCI video card with a proper VGA BIOS for DOS. A modern system is not that suitable for this.

Reply 6 of 26, by PARUS

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OK, my system has ISA. I understand, there are not many Core 2 machines with ISA bus in the world. But before Core 2 Duo I've used Pentium D, Pentium 4, Athlon, Pentium 2... And they all had ISA bus. The best CPUs for fine throttling are Pentium NetBurst and Core 2 families. Pentium2/3/Athlon aren't good for throttling.

Reply 7 of 26, by gdjacobs

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clueless1 wrote:

I don't think it's possible. Maybe with a terrible ISA card, downclocking, and slow memory timings? But even a fast 486/66 can get down to 286 speeds with combinations of Turbo switch, cache disabling and slower memory timings--without resorting to downclocking the cpu frequency.

I think Pentium chips can only go that low on those rare S7 motherboards that support deturbo.
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Reply 8 of 26, by realnc

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PARUS wrote:

OK, my system has ISA. I understand, there are not many Core 2 machines with ISA bus in the world. But before Core 2 Duo I've used Pentium D, Pentium 4, Athlon, Pentium 2... And they all had ISA bus. The best CPUs for fine throttling are Pentium NetBurst and Core 2 families. Pentium2/3/Athlon aren't good for throttling.

I didn't know that. Never seen a semi-modern mainboard with ISA support... Something to keep in mind then. P4's and Core 2's are dirt cheap.

Reply 9 of 26, by Baoran

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Basically I am looking for what type of pc would be the best to leave MT-32 connected to and having separate pc for SC-55.
Currently I have it in 486 33Mhz with VLB Tseng ET4000/w32p, SB16 CT2290 and 8mb of ram that can be slowed down to 286 and 386 levels with turbo and disabling L1/L2. It is basically a Ultima 7 pc that can be slowed down by disabling L1 cache to play wing commander at correct speed.

Recently I started thinking if MT-32 would be better in a K6-III+ system that can be slowed down for 386 and 486 levels, but not for ultima 7 because it doesn't like cache disabling and wing commander is playable but doesn't run as stable speed as with the 486, but I might missing out on those games that require faster pc. I was also thinking of improving the situation by getting one of those midi cards that support the intelligent mode instead of using softmpu and having SB16 midi bugs, but that would also require me making the decision of what pc would be the permanent MT-32 pc.

Are strike commander and 11th hour games only where MT-32 is better that I would miss out on my current 486?

Reply 10 of 26, by clueless1

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Baoran wrote:
Basically I am looking for what type of pc would be the best to leave MT-32 connected to and having separate pc for SC-55. Curre […]
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Basically I am looking for what type of pc would be the best to leave MT-32 connected to and having separate pc for SC-55.
Currently I have it in 486 33Mhz with VLB Tseng ET4000/w32p, SB16 CT2290 and 8mb of ram that can be slowed down to 286 and 386 levels with turbo and disabling L1/L2. It is basically a Ultima 7 pc that can be slowed down by disabling L1 cache to play wing commander at correct speed.

Recently I started thinking if MT-32 would be better in a K6-III+ system that can be slowed down for 386 and 486 levels, but not for ultima 7 because it doesn't like cache disabling and wing commander is playable but doesn't run as stable speed as with the 486, but I might missing out on those games that require faster pc. I was also thinking of improving the situation by getting one of those midi cards that support the intelligent mode instead of using softmpu and having SB16 midi bugs, but that would also require me making the decision of what pc would be the permanent MT-32 pc.

Are strike commander and 11th hour games only where MT-32 is better that I would miss out on my current 486?

Pretty much. I think other than those, your 486/33 is an excellent platform for it, nearly ideal from a period correct standpoint.

The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.
OPL3 FM vs. Roland MT-32 vs. General MIDI DOS Game Comparison
Let's benchmark our systems with cache disabled
DOS PCI Graphics Card Benchmarks

Reply 12 of 26, by dionb

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Alternative: do both.

You can get MIDI patchbays that let you connect different inputs to different outputs. The big ones tend to get expensive, but you can find 2 in, 2 out versions for very reasonable prices. Then you could connect the 486 and SS7 systems to the inputs of the patchbay and the sound modules to the outputs. Then you could switch between them at will on both PCs.

Reply 13 of 26, by misterjones

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PARUS wrote:

OK, my system has ISA. I understand, there are not many Core 2 machines with ISA bus in the world. But before Core 2 Duo I've used Pentium D, Pentium 4, Athlon, Pentium 2... And they all had ISA bus. The best CPUs for fine throttling are Pentium NetBurst and Core 2 families. Pentium2/3/Athlon aren't good for throttling.

Who made those boards? Last time I saw ISA slots on a motherboard was with Pentium 3 and slot A Athlon's. Maybe a handful of socket A Athlon boards had ISA, but even the IWill KV200R I have sitting next to me doesn't have an ISA slot.

Never seen anything past that with an ISA. That's not to say some weirdo company didn't make them, 'cause that sounds like something ASRock would definitely do.

Reply 14 of 26, by dionb

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Asrock did lots of weird stuff (I have a quadcore Phenom II running on a board with AGP thanks to them 😜 ), but they didn't do that much ISA. For that you want to look at boards intended for the industrial market. QDI springs to mind, but there's lots of obscure Chinese stuff too. Abit and Epox also added them wherever possible, which was great for retro people but didn't help commercially apparently as both folded and will be sadly missed (their awful caps less so...).

IMHO easiest way to find newer systems with ISA is to look at PICMG systems with an SBC and a backplane. Those backplanes invariably have ISA as well as PCI, and you can get some pretty nifty modern CPU support on the SBCs. They also frequently use ITE PCI to ISA bridges with full DMA support.

Reply 15 of 26, by gdjacobs

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dionb wrote:

Alternative: do both.

You can get MIDI patchbays that let you connect different inputs to different outputs. The big ones tend to get expensive, but you can find 2 in, 2 out versions for very reasonable prices. Then you could connect the 486 and SS7 systems to the inputs of the patchbay and the sound modules to the outputs. Then you could switch between them at will on both PCs.

That or a KVM switch. Both AT and PS/2 will work (with adapters for PS/2).

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Reply 16 of 26, by Tiido

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misterjones wrote:

Who made those boards? Last time I saw ISA slots on a motherboard was with Pentium 3 and slot A Athlon's. Maybe a handful of socket A Athlon boards had ISA, but even the IWill KV200R I have sitting next to me doesn't have an ISA slot.

Never seen anything past that with an ISA. That's not to say some weirdo company didn't make them, 'cause that sounds like something ASRock would definitely do.

The one i got is an industrial board by Portwell. RUBY-9719VG2AR : http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/NewAwesomeMobo.jpg

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Reply 17 of 26, by cyclone3d

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misterjones wrote:

Who made those boards? Last time I saw ISA slots on a motherboard was with Pentium 3 and slot A Athlon's. Maybe a handful of socket A Athlon boards had ISA, but even the IWill KV200R I have sitting next to me doesn't have an ISA slot.

Never seen anything past that with an ISA. That's not to say some weirdo company didn't make them, 'cause that sounds like something ASRock would definitely do.

A good number of Socket A motherboards had at least 1 ISA Slot. The last chipset to usually have ISA slots was the Via KT133A.

And certain boards, such as the KT7A / KT7A-RAID can have the 5th multiplier bit enabled and also have a modified BIOS available for use with the Barton CPUs. That board is pretty sweet with an Athlon XP Mobile CPU in it. You can get up to 2.3-2.4Ghz.

Then there is the Biostar M7MIA (AMD 761+VIA 686B) which has an ISA slot AND uses DDR RAM. I got one in a lot and didn't even realize what it was until I received it. DDR support for a Socket A board with an ISA slot was really my only wish for a Socket A board and then I found out that a board existed that had it and I ended up getting one by accident.

Then there are industrial backplane/CPU board systems that have a ton of ISA slots depending on which backplane you use. The fastest that was made that I am aware of was an LGA775 PXAGP setup that supported Pentium D Processors, but I have not been able to find the single model of CPU board.. so I am stuck with Socket 478.. but it does have AGP, PCI, and ISA.

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Reply 18 of 26, by dionb

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gdjacobs wrote:

That or a KVM switch. Both AT and PS/2 will work (with adapters for PS/2).

How does a KVM-switch help with MIDI?

KVM switches are also very useful with multi-PC setups, but they just do keyboard, video & mouse (although some have serial and/or audio too, but none that I'm aware of MIDI)

cyclone3d wrote:

Then there are industrial backplane/CPU board systems that have a ton of ISA slots depending on which backplane you use. The fastest that was made that I am aware of was an LGA775 PXAGP setup that supported Pentium D Processors, but I have not been able to find the single model of CPU board.. so I am stuck with Socket 478.. but it does have AGP, PCI, and ISA.

They still make those things...

Most PICMG is now v1.3 (with PCI + PCIe), but you can stil get 1.0 (with PCI+ISA) as well. Things like this So1150 beastie:
WSB-H810-Bild-01_140922.jpg

Last edited by dionb on 2018-11-25, 13:50. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 19 of 26, by gdjacobs

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dionb wrote:
gdjacobs wrote:

That or a KVM switch. Both AT and PS/2 will work (with adapters for PS/2).

How does a KVM-switch help with MIDI?

KVM switches are also very useful with multi-PC setups, but they just do keyboard, video & mouse (although some have serial and/or audio too, but none that I'm aware of MIDI)

AT keyboard connectors are same as standard MIDI jacks. PS/2 connectors are the same as the miniature jacks on SCC-1 cards and such. Any KVM that switches all five conductors straight through can also switch MIDI just fine. A KVM switch that buffers throughput will be an issue, so a purely mechanical device is ideal.

This old school type was what I was contemplating:

The attachment sw-4473.jpg is no longer available

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