dr_st wrote:

SirNickity wrote:

The problem with my laptop -- and any other I've ever used -- is that my wrists are down here, while my eyes are way up here. It is physically impossible to put the keyboard low enough and the screen high enough without the top half of the clamshell being torso-height tall. That typically means, if one were to put the unit atop a lap... that the neck gets the short straw.

I feel that with the right desk setup (a good chair with adjustable seat, back and arm rests), it is possible to sit in more than a single posture without incurring discomfort/strain. However, it must be different on the individual level. We have those folks that say that they are comfortable in any position, and then there are those that cannot sit even in the most ergonomic environment for more than a short while, and everything in between.

I don't follow. What does the chair have to do with anything? Ergonomics dictates the screen should be at roughly eye level, while the keyboard should be at a level that keeps your arms and wrists relatively straight, at a 90deg angle from your torso. Regardless what chair you have, that would effectively require a laptop with a top hinge about 2 to 3 feet tall. Mine isn't even close to that. Hence, hunched posture. Hence, chiropractor visits.

I feel that you are exaggerating. When they say "screen at eye level" which part of the screen? The screen is very tall. There is some flexibility. There is also some flexibility to your body - it is not 100% rigid.

For example, right now, I was sitting at my desk typing on a keyboard comfortably, with my wrist and arms flat on the table surface, and my back straight on the chair, staring at a 32" screen. Then, I moved the keyboard away and instead put a 12"5 laptop in front of me, with its screen open slightly more than 90 degrees. The laptop keyboard is at the same physical location where the desktop keyboard was, so no issues there; to focus on the laptop screen all I had to do was slightly shift my gaze lower, I didn't even have to move my neck!

Maybe you have a habit of keeping the keyboard too close to your body when you type? Like you follow the "90 degree angle between upper and lower arm at the elbow"? If so, there's your piece of bad advice right there (IMO).

Ergonomics is not science set in stone. There are some unifying principles, for sure, but in the end, what's comfortable for one may be uncomfortable for the other, and some people simply have a wider range of acceptable positions than others. Granted, my vision is probably a bit above average, so it may be easier for me to shift and focus my gaze.

Some people suggest tilting the base of the laptop upwards so that the back of the keyboard is raised and the screen sits a bit taller. IMO, it creates far more problems than it solves (awkward angles at the wrists).

A good chair, table, everything add up
http://faculty.seattlecentral.edu/ymoh/ergono … /ergonomics.htm
Not to mention other factors like good lighting to reduce eye strain, etc, etc

Fact is a laptop will always be worse then a proper permanent setup, portability is its main focus, that's why they have always supported external keyboards, monitors, etc

"Switch hands for using the mouse periodically" 🤣 yeah sorry no that's not happening.

"Stretch inside of your body"

"You may be affected by radiation given off by your computer"

This article is great.

But the big debate here seems to be monitor height. For someone of my height and build (male 5' 10" slim build) it is not really an issue that I have ever had. I just adjust the angle of the laptop screen until it is comfortable to glance down at it with my eyes instead of craning my neck, and usually push the laptop further out on the table so I can keep my arms more level with the keyboard.

Maybe for people taller than I am, it is a bigger issue.

Like seemingly most people, I hate the way modern laptops prioritise thinness above all else (as with others, my first laptop was as thick as a long novel, it was a Toshiba Pro something or other, a P75 CPU and a 640 x 480 screen resolution, and the thickness of the case and it's weight never bothered me), I'd much rather modern Windows laptops were thicker and better made. A decent keyboard would be nice too.

And supplying laptops with Windows 7 instead of anything later would be a big draw for me, and lots of other potential customers. I'm *really* not looking forward to having to decide what to change to when Microsoft drop Windows 7 support in the coming months.

dr_st wrote:

Ergonomics is not science set in stone.

Err.... that's... uhm... exactly what it is -- a science. Medical experts have studied the body, and the effects of certain bad habits, and created a set of guidelines to prevent as much wear and tear on the body as possible. As with any science, granted, we don't know all there is to know. After all, humans using computers for extended periods... this is a relatively new thing in our evolution. But, if you chat up any chiropractor or massage therapist, they'll confirm there are obvious correlations to be made between people that use computers for long periods and the complaints they have. Just the single, seemingly innocuous reach for the mouse with my right hand causes issues with the muscles around my right shoulder that I don't have with the left. Little things add up over the course of decades.

Now, I'm pretty tall -- 6'3" or so -- so maybe it is just worse for me. My work desk sits a little higher than ideal, so my elbow-angle is less than 90deg. I can tell it would be more comfortable a couple inches lower, but it's a compromise with the chair itself and the desk's bottom surface. The center of my monitor is ~17.5" above the desk surface, which is at eye level. This is where it's most comfortable for me. I bought clamping monitor arms that give me the flexibility to put it where I want it, and that's the position I chose.

I also live off my laptop, so when I use it (as opposed to the Linux box that stays put) for long periods, atop my desk without requisitioning an external display, I am guaranteed to go home with a bit of an ache in my neck and possibly the start of a headache. After a straight week of that, I'm not feeling that great on Friday, so I try not to do that. If the thing were four inches lower, on my lap, I would be in a world of hurt. It's a long way down from the midway point of my giant head, so the geometry just doesn't work unless I bend my head down some. The neck is not meant to stay that way for hours at a time.

My iPad works great for navigating Vogons website. I can preform anything with it but execute dos binaries.

My 2012 MacBook Pro with dual core i5 CPU still works fine running MacOS Sierra.
Runs very slow with MS-Win-10 however.

Pitting an iPad against a laptop or desktop is like pitting a hammer against a microwave oven. The iPad is definitely a useful tool for certain tasks, but good luck pounding your leftover spaghetti warm.

SirNickity wrote:

Pitting an iPad against a laptop or desktop is like pitting a hammer against a microwave oven. The iPad is definitely a useful tool for certain tasks, but good luck pounding your leftover spaghetti warm.

Don’t. Just don’t. Don’t feed the troll.

Intel486dx33:

Aaaaanyway. I was never a huge laptop user, but recently, especially because of work I have used couple of laptops, and also I did bought one "potable" DOSBox. And somehow, I would probably look like ThinkPad fanboy. My 3 laptops are 390X, T430 and T470. All of them have its pros and cons and quite well shows progress between old and modern ones.

Old IBM 390X is build like a brick. It feels, like I could throw it from 3rd floor and it would survive the fall. But also it's also heavy as that brick. The thickness itself wouldn't be so bad, if it wouldn't be so freaking heavy. Also, it have only TrackPoint, no TrackPad what so ever. This really pisses me off. And it's not like there isn't place for it. They just don't wanted to put there any form of TrackPad, that's all. At least, they put there PS/2 port for mouse. Ant there's also USB port, but only 1.1, which make's is pretty unusable for transferring amounts of data. For that, network is ideal.... But you have to add network card to PCMCIA, because it's not integrated. Sound card is ESS Solo-1, so it's great for DOS games as well. Also upgradeablility is strong, CPU (PIII 450) is on MMC-2 module, RAM is upgradeable to 512MB (I maxed out mine), HDD is easily upgradeable too (you don't even need to have screwdriver, screw is designed to be unscrewed by coin!), and you have plethora of ports (include serial, parallel, VGA, 2x PCMCIA, and also dock port). And there is even floppy and CD combo drive. So yeah, great DOS and 2D Windows 98 machine.

Now T430... I would say, it's perfect blend of old and new. It still feels really sturdy, although a bit less then 390X. But man, it's worth it, the weight is much lower. Also upgradeability... This is likely most upgradeable ThinkPad, at least of modern times. CPU is still socketed, RAM is easily upgradeable, as well as HDD, keyboard (for 7 rows one even), WiFi card, and DVD-RW optical drive. Dock is obviously an option too, as well as possibility of using ExpressCard. There is again a plethora of ports, including powered USB 2.0, fast USB 3.0, VGA, DisplayPort (with sound pass-through), Ethernet and SD card slot. And good things doesn't stops there, because this laptop is still FULLY supported in XP, with easily obtainable drivers on Lenovo site. I'm really glad for this laptop, because it's still perfectly usable today (with SSD disk of course), but it can be used with XP, and also it's easiest option for me, if I need to read or write some CD/DVD medium (since my main rig don't have any optical drive anymore). Only big con is display, which is pure TN garbage... Well, nothing is perfect I suppose...

And finally T470...Finally a laptop with gorgeous FullHP IPS display, great TrackPad and also super light in comparison to previous ones. But there's a catch. CPU is soldered, optical drive is no more, and the same applies to XP compatibility. At least there's still enough of USB ports, Ethernet, dock port, finally a HDMI, and newly introduced USB-C (with support for eGPU), and swapable battery (with small one integrated, so you can really swap batteries even in field without laptop connected to electricity) and 2 RAM slots and still 2,5" bay available.

The new T490 from what I read is unfortunately still more and more distancing from what makes ThinkPads great. And that's ultimate upgreadibility and serviceability. I would say, that peak of that was T430, and everything comes after that would by inevitably worse. And what's worst of all, that ThinPads are still, even today, superior in this to competitors, like for example MacBooks Pro, where is EVERYTHING soldered...

bfcastello wrote:

SirNickity wrote:

Pitting an iPad against a laptop or desktop is like pitting a hammer against a microwave oven. The iPad is definitely a useful tool for certain tasks, but good luck pounding your leftover spaghetti warm.

Don’t. Just don’t. Don’t feed the troll.

If so then why is Vogons website iPad friendly ?
I think Vogons website works better with an iPad than a Windows-10 tablet.
I have a Dell Venue 11" tablet with Win-8-Pro and it is terrible for navigating Vogons website.

Srandista wrote:

Now T430.......Only big con is display, which is pure TN garbage... Well, nothing is perfect I suppose...

There is a FHD mod, and even a QHD mod for this generation, which allows you to install IPS displays.

Yeah, I know, but that display itself would probably cost more than laptop itself... And its not like I'm using that laptop on daily basis (quite opposite), so I learned to live with that garbage screen.

FHD is the sweetspot for laptops IMO... though I wish 4:3 or 16:10 would come back. I hate scaling crap.

On a laptop, 16:9 makes a lot of sense. The keyboard's wide and that sets the width of the case anyway, so you might as well fill the top lid with screen. Even if you use a 4:3 resolution on a 16:9 screen, the image couldn't get any bigger with a square panel without making the laptop deeper.

SirNickity wrote:

On a laptop, 16:9 makes a lot of sense. The keyboard's wide and that sets the width of the case anyway, so you might as well fill the top lid with screen. Even if you use a 4:3 resolution on a 16:9 screen, the image couldn't get any bigger with a square panel without making the laptop deeper.

Except in order to make laptops 16:9 they had to add fat width on either side of the keyboard. The size of the keyboards used to naturally fit a 4:3 screen; nowadays there is unnatural width introduced between the keys.

Look at pictures online of the Thinkpad T60 vs the Thinkpad T61. Same exact keyboard! But on the T61 they have added about an inch and a quarter of width on either side of the keyboard, and it looks ill proportioned as a result (to my eyes).

16x10 works well. I had one of these for a long time & thought it was a pretty good form factor. I'd probably still be using it if the LCD backlight hadn't died.

(Dell D430)

My 2012 Macbook Pro is also 16x10. My current lug-everywhere 2010-ish Lenovo Ideapad is 16x9 (1600x900 px) and I do notice the lack of "headroom", but at least the panel fits the format they chose.

A huge pet peeve of mine is when they make what should obviously be a 16x10 laptop, and then stuff a 16x9 panel into it, leaving you staring at plastic letterbox bars on the top & bottom of the display area. Anyone who does this should have all their engineering certs revoked:

SirNickity wrote:

On a laptop, 16:9 makes a lot of sense.

Makes sense for smaller screen diagonals, less so for larger ones.

keenmaster486 wrote:

Look at pictures online of the Thinkpad T60 vs the Thinkpad T61. Same exact keyboard! But on the T61 they have added about an inch and a quarter of width on either side of the keyboard, and it looks ill proportioned as a result

Exactly. This is for 14" and 15". But compare, for example, the 12" X61 vs X200, and you'll see that by going wide (although it's 16:10, not 16:9) they managed to get a full-size keyboard, which they did not have on the 4:3 models.

The 4:3 T61 is where it's at.

Functionality over design.

I use my computers as a communication device not just for learning or playing gaming.
I think this goes back to computer networking and the internet mainly from the 1990’s
With Novell IP/SPX, IBM Token ring, Apple talk, and TCP/IP.
And a Novell Gateway to allow all of these protocols to communicate.
And today with Skype and FaceTime.

Sharing idea’s and collaboration on projects.

I find the iPad a better tool for this than the Windows PC.

The IPad is just easy to use and better though out in terms of task efficiency.
I find it a pain and cumbersome to use a PC/Laptop/Win-10-tablet.

If needed you can still attach a Bluetooth keyboard to the IPad.