Tempest wrote on 2024-07-09, 19:34:

Dumb question but on my Pentium 1 I'm using Windows 98 SE (my 486 is for pure DOS games). What's the largest CF card that I can use with it? I know Windows 98 can recognize larger hard drives than DOS 6.22 could. I assume that for Pentium 1 era games that DOS 7 is just fine.

Also that StarTech CF adapter looks like it has a rear mount that goes in a card slot. Since I don't have any bays free on the front of my machines this would be ideal. Has anyone tried to do this before?

Many people prefer the rear slot. Don't read into that much. We are all talking about computers here. What is your preferred way to mount a CF in a DOS / Win build?

I typed up some info about the BIOS limitations here: https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/Storage# … age_Limitations

There's no physical reason you cannot get a very large CF. All the pins are there. If you get an LBA48 BIOS and have money to burn, you can go over 128GB but you might find that a slower pentium has a little lag calculating the free disk space though.

The common SD sintechi SD bridges on the other hand have a hard stop at 128GB. They only support LBA28, not LBA48.

Will Windows 98 put too much wear and tear on the CF card due to the swap file? Or is it still ok to use? I don't want this dying after a few months.

EDIT: ok it looks like CF isn't ideal for Win 98. I'll put the CF in my DOS based 486 and go with a SSD or SD solution for my Win 98 box. What are some recommended IDE to SSD or SD card adapters ?

Tempest wrote on 2024-07-10, 02:35:

What are some recommended IDE to SSD or SD card adapters ?

I'm using this StarTech IDE-to-SATA adapter without any problems so far. Seems very reliable.
I use it in my Win98 + DOS PC.

I experimented with the CF solution in my DOS PC first. At some point I switched over to DOS 7.10 and because my BIOS supports 128GB drive I replaced CF with SSD. The reason is that 128GB CF cards are way too expensive.
SSD works like a charm and is more future-proof for me. CF cards are harder to get from my POV.

https://www.startech.com/de-de/hdd/ide2sat2

The SD TO IDE adapter with FC-1307 chip works very well, on my 386 and 486 computers, with XTIDE BIOS, there is no problem with using 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64GB TF cards, it is very stable, it is recommended to use the high endurance SD card of the dash cam, the disadvantage of this converter is that there is no master-slave jumper setting.

Tempest wrote on 2024-07-10, 02:35:

Will Windows 98 put too much wear and tear on the CF card due to the swap file? Or is it still ok to use? I don't want this dying after a few months.

EDIT: ok it looks like CF isn't ideal for Win 98. I'll put the CF in my DOS based 486 and go with a SSD or SD solution for my Win 98 box. What are some recommended IDE to SSD or SD card adapters ?

There was a lot of discussion about sata devices here: The hunt for a good IDE to SATA adapter thingy.

My rule of thumb is:

• If you want a period correct build, and you can get the parts for a period correct build, it's hard to go wrong with a period correct build. You generally get the best compatibility.
• If your computer only does PIO (Early 486 VLB and older), any solid state storage is going to work and work fast enough to outpace your computer. You are likely to encounter BIOS limitations if your storage is larger than 512 MB.
• If your computer does DMA storage but not UDMA (late 486, Pentium Chipsets <=430Vx, Pentium Pro, Pentium II 440FX chipset), you should consider using a CF or SD solution because it is easier to find DMA support with those devices than it is with SATA bridges. You are likely to encounter BIOS limitations if your storage is larger than 8.4 GB.
• If your computer does UDMA (430TX, 440LX chipsets and newer), then you should consider a sata device with a pata bridge to get the best performance. You are not likely to encounter BIOS limitations with storage under 30GB.

p.s. if you are using solid state storage with Win98, you should consider making this entry in your system.ini
[386Enh]
ConservativeSwapfileUsage = 1

p.p.s. Yes, I know that the IDE controller in the south bridge, but if you say "look for PIIX4 or newer", it confuses many people

douglar wrote on 2024-07-10, 11:19:

There was a lot of discussion about sata devices here: The hunt for a good IDE to SATA adapter thingy. […]
Show full quote

Tempest wrote on 2024-07-10, 02:35:

Will Windows 98 put too much wear and tear on the CF card due to the swap file? Or is it still ok to use? I don't want this dying after a few months.

EDIT: ok it looks like CF isn't ideal for Win 98. I'll put the CF in my DOS based 486 and go with a SSD or SD solution for my Win 98 box. What are some recommended IDE to SSD or SD card adapters ?

There was a lot of discussion about sata devices here: The hunt for a good IDE to SATA adapter thingy.

My rule of thumb is:

• If you want a period correct build, and you can get the parts for a period correct build, it's hard to go wrong with a period correct build. You generally get the best compatibility.
• If your computer only does PIO (Early 486 VLB and older), any solid state storage is going to work and work fast enough to outpace your computer. You are likely to encounter BIOS limitations if your storage is larger than 512 MB.
• If your computer does DMA storage but not UDMA (late 486, Pentium Chipsets <=430Vx, Pentium Pro, Pentium II 440FX chipset), you should consider using a CF or SD solution because it is easier to find DMA support with those devices than it is with SATA bridges. You are likely to encounter BIOS limitations if your storage is larger than 8.4 GB.
• If your computer does UDMA (430TX, 440LX chipsets and newer), then you should consider a sata device with a pata bridge to get the best performance. You are not likely to encounter BIOS limitations with storage under 30GB.

p.s. if you are using solid state storage with Win98, you should consider making this entry in your system.ini
[386Enh]
ConservativeSwapfileUsage = 1

p.p.s. Yes, I know that the IDE controller in the south bridge, but if you say "look for PIIX4 or newer", it confuses many people

Is a CF fast enough to handle Windows 98 or is it going to cause speed issues? Also, will enabling conservativeswapfileusage prevent the CF card from being trashed by the swap file or will it just slow down the damage? What does not using the swap file do to performance? I think my system has 128MB of RAM which is the max the motherboard supports.

Tempest wrote on 2024-07-10, 13:19:

Is a CF fast enough to handle Windows 98 or is it going to cause speed issues? Also, will enabling conservativeswapfileusage prevent the CF card from being trashed by the swap file or will it just slow down the damage? What does not using the swap file do to performance? I think my system has 128MB of RAM which is the max the motherboard supports.

CF's have been in existence since 1994, so we are talking about a wide and deep family tree of devices. I hate to generalize too much because if you start unearthing CF's that are > 20 years old, you might find the performance to be unacceptably low. That said, most industrial CF's were designed to work without TRIM for extended periods of time without degrading and most CF's with firmware newer than 2005 should be fine for a Win98 install.

If you got questions about Windows, maybe take those to the windows forum.

Would something like a NGFF module work better than a CF card? 16GB NGFF modules are cheap and there are NGFF to IDE adapters (although you need a 44 pin to 40 pin adapter too it seems).

Tempest wrote on 2024-07-10, 15:29:

Would something like a NGFF module work better than a CF card? 16GB NGFF modules are cheap and there are NGFF to IDE adapters (although you need a 44 pin to 40 pin adapter too it seems).

You can do it two ways --
1) mSata-->44Pin pata bridge & 44pin --> 40 pin adapter
2) mSata--> sata adapter & sata-->40 pin pata bridge
I find that option 2 is a couple dollars cheaper but mounting it can be a little trickier

The price & performance is great either way but two notes:
1) 16 GB NGFF modules prefer LBA if you want to access the full 16GB. Not all Pentium 1 motherboards support LBA, in which case you need to install a drive overlay, add an option rom, or manually configure 8.4GB CHS geometry.
2) If you want to enable DMA in Windows, might be tough to find a sata-->pata bridge that does DMA. They do UDMA, but few Pentium 1 motherboards do UDMA without a PCI IDE card.

douglar wrote on 2024-07-10, 17:05:

You can do it two ways -- 1) mSata-->44Pin pata bridge & 44pin --> 40 pin adapter 2) mSata--> sata adapter & sata-->40 pin p […]
Show full quote

Tempest wrote on 2024-07-10, 15:29:

Would something like a NGFF module work better than a CF card? 16GB NGFF modules are cheap and there are NGFF to IDE adapters (although you need a 44 pin to 40 pin adapter too it seems).

You can do it two ways --
1) mSata-->44Pin pata bridge & 44pin --> 40 pin adapter
2) mSata--> sata adapter & sata-->40 pin pata bridge
I find that option 2 is a couple dollars cheaper but mounting it can be a little trickier

The price & performance is great either way but two notes:
1) 16 GB NGFF modules prefer LBA if you want to access the full 16GB. Not all Pentium 1 motherboards support LBA, in which case you need to install a drive overlay, add an option rom, or manually configure 8.4GB CHS geometry.
2) If you want to enable DMA in Windows, might be tough to find a sata-->pata bridge that does DMA. They do UDMA, but few Pentium 1 motherboards do UDMA without a PCI IDE card.

Forgive my ignorance here, but is there a difference in performance/durability between mSATA and M.2 NGFF? They seem to be practically the same to me.

Since my BIOS seems to only support up to 8GB drives (SurePath), I don't think I can access the full 16GB anyway. 16GB was just the smallest I could find that were cheap.

Is DMA actually necessary for Windows 98? This box is pretty much just for gaming.

Tempest wrote on 2024-07-10, 15:29:

Would something like a NGFF module work better than a CF card?

If there is any difference I doubt it will be impactful on a Pentium 166. I've had a CF card with a cheap adapter in a Pentium III 1GHz PC with Windows 98 for over 2 years and it works great as far as I'm concerned.

Using CF cards is usually easier since you only need a single very basic adapter.