xjas wrote:

I thought Valve had a really vague end-of-life policy that they'd somehow unlock the DRM if Steam ever were to shutdown. It's not ironclad but it's something.

Yeah it is something. It's called a lie.

No idea why people keep bringing that shit up: there is nothing binding Valve to it.

@JayCeeBee64
The amount in favor and against steam was far from "all against you". I for one welcome some critical attitude. At the same time I suppose Vogons will never be the platform to defend Personal Computing Freedoms... other then preserving our treasured obsolete systems. That is a task big enough in itself.

Tim Sweeney wrote an article about it:
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/ma … es-gears-of-war

As the founder of a major Windows game developer and technology supplier, this is an op-ed I hoped I would never feel compelled to write. But Epic has prided itself on providing software directly to customers ever since I started mailing floppy disks in 1991. We wouldn’t let Microsoft close down the PC platform overnight without a fight, and therefore we won’t sit silently by while Microsoft embarks on a series of sneaky manoeuvre aimed at achieving this over a period of several years.

Ultimately tho this is a losing battle. The users do not care. Make something easy and shiny and they will jump to it. We saw it with music, we see it with video streaming. I'm just glad that the amount of games (both past and present) out there is so huge that there should be enough games for those that don't want to take part in these schemes.

Microsoft wants to monopolise games development on PC. We must fight it

"... Microsoft has launched new PC Windows features exclusively in UWP (Universal Windows Platform), and is effectively telling […]
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"... Microsoft has launched new PC Windows features exclusively in UWP (Universal Windows Platform), and is effectively telling developers you can use these Windows features only if you submit to the control of our locked-down UWP ecosystem. They’re curtailing users’ freedom to install full-featured PC software, and subverting the rights of developers and publishers to maintain a direct relationship with their customers ..."


"... The ultimate danger here is that Microsoft continually improves UWP while neglecting and even degrading win32, over time making it harder for developers and publishers to escape from Microsoft’s new UWP commerce monopoly. Ultimately, the open win32 Windows experience could be relegated to Enterprise and Developer editions of Windows ..."


"... Microsoft’s intentions must be judged by Microsoft’s actions, not Microsoft’s words. Their actions speak plainly enough: they are working to turn today’s open PC ecosystem into a closed, Microsoft-controlled distribution and commerce monopoly, over time, in a series of steps of which we’re seeing the very first ..."

"We don't want people to download our exclusive apps anywhere else, therefore we are evil!" And the reason Microsoft made GoW exclusive to the app store is because they own the rights, not Epic.

MrEWhite wrote:

"We don't want people to download our exclusive apps anywhere else, therefore we are evil!" And the reason Microsoft made GoW exclusive to the app store is because they own the rights, not Epic.

You are missing the point though. It's not just about Windows Store exclusivity.

After reading the link about the Microsoft store, I think I understand better some of Jayceebee64's reasoning with respect to Steam. That said, however, I don't know that I want to go back to buying physical disks. If a 3rd party like Steam is what it takes to get some publishers to be less of a pain with respect to DRM, I'd much rather use Steam than have to futz with a physical disk.

With regard to the future of PC gaming, I don't have a very hard time imagining Microsoft trying to shut everyone else out of the PC gaming market...that's like a brain-stem function for them: embrace, extend, extinguish.

This will possibly push more publishers, especially large ones to support valve and steamos. Either way, I don't know how good this is for us, the end users. Most likely we're going to see the end of freedom in the computing world because the corporations want absolute control.

I think the only way to really hurt Microsoft is for software developers to start migrating towards the Linux ecosystem.

I can only dream though.

Good to see some strong opposition in the form of Epic, let's see what follows.

Generally I think there are many 'parties' that insist that all future computing is restricted to the Apple IOS model, regardless of who controls it: A single authority reviews all possible applications before they are offered through approved channels. The point was nicely illustrated by Doctorow at 28C3, 2011.
AFAIK The Apple-IOS implementation of this was less opposed, since IOS started out as an apple-only-garden on something new, after which it changed to a walled-by-apple-garden. On the other hand, Microsoft is starting from the free-for-all PC, that came to be when IBM failed to legally protect their product, and their suspected road to the IOS model will find much opposition. Though I figure, once such a software store is accepted it should not take much time before revenue gets astronomical.
Steam is hard to place, IMO it's not good, but not the worst. Gamers defend it, as it became part of their pride. It can change overnight. Linux and maybe ReactOS will keep things interesting. But will intel pick a side?; They can do anything, except take back vintage hardware.

Yep, the easy solution if you don't like what Microsoft is trying to do to the industry is not to use their operating system. I've been pretty much Linux-exclusive on my main machines since ~2008 except for a Macbook that I got in 2013 (and a couple of "obsolete" Power Macs I use a lot.) I don't feel I've missed out on anything that I actually wanted to play or do because of it.

Tim Sweeny's op-ed up there was interesting to read; I have a lot of respect for him as a developer and a business leader; he seems to be WELL above the sort of sleaze that other segments of the industry have become (cough "EA" cough.) Hopefully this will see Epic making a push to abandon the Windows-exclusive platform. UE is already available on Mac & Linux but the dev kit is still Windows only which is annoying.

gerwin wrote:

Good to see some strong opposition in the form of Epic, let's see what follows.

[ ... ] Steam is hard to place, IMO it's not good, but not the worst. Gamers defend it, as it became part of their pride. It can change overnight. Linux and maybe ReactOS will keep things interesting. But will intel pick a side?; They can do anything, except take back vintage hardware.

I was kind of anti-Steam for a long time but one of the reasons I started using it is the sheer number of titles on there that are available for multi platforms. Especially with Valve pushing SteamOS (note: everything on Steam that lists "SteamOS" support also supports common distros like Ubuntu) I expect this welcome trend to continue.

Intel have one of the best programs to support Linux / open platforms of any of the big manufacturers. All their drivers are open source and "compatibly" licensed, which means they can be bundled into and distributed as part of the OS itself. "Typical" desktop Linux users haven't had to hunt for drivers after a fresh install for like the last decade. I'd love to see ATI & Nvidia do the same; it looks like at least ATI is pushing in that direction with the Vulkan stuff and their new open source initiatives.

I don't mean to sound like a zealot here, but honestly trying to use most versions of Windows after XP for *anything* gives me an instant headache. Its era has long passed; time to leave that junk behind.

Subject: "PC" Games on Windows Store

xjas wrote:

Yep, the easy solution if you don't like what Microsoft is trying to do to the industry is not to use their operating system.

This is the direction I plan to go in as well. Win7 will be my last MS OS. It may not even last me until EOL with the way MS is going with their updates. Seriously, just getting Win7 updated from install-to-current is like dancing over landmines in the form of GWX crapola. Nowadays, I have to bump up the list of offered updates with a list of known-bad GWX stuff just so that I can avoid annoyances. It takes much longer and is a HUGE hassle.

xjas wrote:

I don't mean to sound like a zealot here, but honestly trying to use most versions of Windows after XP for *anything* gives me an instant headache. Its era has long passed; time to leave that junk behind.

Which distro do you recommend? Another VOGONS user here strongly suggested Fedora to me, so that's what I was planning on using.

KT7AGuy wrote:

Subject: "PC" Games on Windows Store […]
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Subject: "PC" Games on Windows Store

xjas wrote:

Yep, the easy solution if you don't like what Microsoft is trying to do to the industry is not to use their operating system.

This is the direction I plan to go in as well. Win7 will be my last MS OS. It may not even last me until EOL with the way MS is going with their updates. Seriously, just getting Win7 updated from install-to-current is like dancing over landmines in the form of GWX crapola. Nowadays, I have to bump up the list of offered updates with a list of known-bad GWX stuff just so that I can avoid annoyances. It takes much longer and is a HUGE hassle.

xjas wrote:

I don't mean to sound like a zealot here, but honestly trying to use most versions of Windows after XP for *anything* gives me an instant headache. Its era has long passed; time to leave that junk behind.

Which distro do you recommend? Another VOGONS user here strongly suggested Fedora to me, so that's what I was planning on using.

I'm running Fedora 21 on my office workstation. It was a *little* finicky to set up and get everything working perfectly (just a matter of tweaking a few things and editing some config files), partly because I'm using a "spin" with KDE which isn't its "native" desktop, but it's really powerful and I like it.

That said...

if you're just starting out with Linux I *highly* recommend Mint 17 with the Cinnamon desktop. Probably my favorite overall, and what I default to sticking on a new-to-me laptop whenever I get one. It's a lovely looking, slick, full-featured distro and it has just about the most painless setup & install process I've ever seen. Takes max. ~45 minutes to set up a completely fresh system. It has *none* of the random niggle-faults and config tweaks that Linux is kinda notorious for. Plus I like the package management system better (DEB-based w/ Synaptic package manager instead of Fedora's RPM/YUM) and as an Ubuntu derivative, it has the biggest library of software there is.

I just installed PCLinuxOS on my Shuttle XPC box (see "bought this hardware" thread) which looks great and is lightweight enough to run acceptably on an old single-core 32-bit machine. But I've barely played around with it yet.

Funny one mentions Mint when their webserver got hacked a few days ago. But, apart from that mishap Mint is more beginners than Ubuntu by far.

^^ Considering how quickly that hack was detected, and project founder Clem's posting of instant, direct response & updates to the attack on the site news feed while they cleared it up, I think they handled it pretty damn well. I feel *more* confident in how well they'll manage similar incidents in the future if they crop up. Mint isn't exactly a low-profile piece of software; it's been #1 ranked on Distrowatch.org for two or three years running so of *course* they're going to be a target for the odd asshole hacker.

(The hack has long been fixed of course! It was taken care of on the same day.)

The keys to the kingdom for any Linux distribution are not the website or FTP repository. Most important are the signing keys, and those weren't compromised.

Malik wrote:

I have started losing interest in new games. I've built the latest desktop system with a 980Ti, only to find... the emptiness fe […]
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I have started losing interest in new games. I've built the latest desktop system with a 980Ti, only to find... the emptiness feeling in new games. With some rare exceptions.

From Windows Store I download some Free games for my tablet. And that's it. If it's freemium-centred game, I uninstall it the next second. Other than that, not interested in WIndows Store based full-scale heavy weight games. Not interested in DX12 too. Fine if it's the future, but looking at the new games, nothing could hold my interest for long. Lack of innovations and focus only on graphics technology is driving me away.

I just want good gameplay ... just like the good old days. That's why I still have Dosbox installed even on my latest desktop.

I don't have any grudge against Steam either. Games are really cheap, especially when on sale. And furthermore, it's sold in my local currency. Just got the Hitman series during a past sale.

Windows Store has a lackluster roster of games and with the new problem coming up, it will be a real pain. But MS is known to backtrack on it's designs, like how it did with XBox One. It may be working with game companies to resolve certain issues, since the problems cropped up in the links posted by DosFreak are quite serious and it will backfire on Microsoft.

Same thing here. I've probably spent about more than 5000usd alone in video cards for the last 5 years only in the end to just keep playing emulators and games like Quake and SEGA arcade racers, and the occasional game like ARMA3 and so on. I'm 20 and IMO perhaps it might just be people like me but I really think there's something important missing here in most today's games. Either full of scripted events, lackluster gameplay, unoriginal art direction or too focused in the "competitive scene" is what I'm seeing quite often these days I think.

gerwin wrote:

... The point was nicely illustrated by Doctorow at 28C3, 2011 ...

Back in 2011 Doctorow could see it coming (think about the Windows 7 "upgrading" malware updates for instance):

Doctorow wrote:

"... Freedom in the future will require us to have the capacity to monitor our devices and set meaningful policy on them, to examine and terminate the processes that run on them, to maintain them as honest servants to our will, and not as traitors and spies working for criminals, thugs, and control freaks ..."

gerwin wrote:

... Microsoft is starting from the free-for-all PC, that came to be when IBM failed to legally protect their product, and their suspected road to the IOS model will find much opposition. Though I figure, once such a software store is accepted it should not take much time before revenue gets astronomical ...

And that's why they're bruteforcing their way Tony Soprano style.

KT7AGuy wrote:

... Win7 will be my last MS OS. It may not even last me until EOL with the way MS is going with their updates. Seriously, just getting Win7 updated from install-to-current is like dancing over landmines in the form of GWX crapola. Nowadays, I have to bump up the list of offered updates with a list of known-bad GWX stuff just so that I can avoid annoyances. It takes much longer and is a HUGE hassle ...

Just disable Windows Update (which nowadays has become little more than a backdoor for malware like GWX) and peacefully enjoy the best and last real Windows OS while it is still possible.

If Windows loses market share, it will lose it to Mac OSX not Linux. Where we'll have the exact same problem. Escape to Linux and you'll lose out on the advantages of a OS that's actually has a huge market share (more availability, more software, more documentation, more job relevance).

I don't realistically see people mass migrating to Linux. We'll have to fight either Apple or Microsoft on this strategy. I doubt there's a winning chance with either. They've already seen their plan works with phones.

ZellSF,

I respectfully disagree. Apple and MS have both shown contempt and a disregard for the privacy of their customers. This quote from Doctorow that TELVM posted is prophetic:

Doctorow wrote:

"... Freedom in the future will require us to have the capacity to monitor our devices and set meaningful policy on them, to examine and terminate the processes that run on them, to maintain them as honest servants to our will, and not as traitors and spies working for criminals, thugs, and control freaks ..."

Neither MacOS/iOS or Win10 have those abilities anymore. Why on earth would I sacrifice my privacy and control for a little convenience and the sake of "market share"?!? It's madness! This cartoon comes to mind:

I agree with you that we must fight Apple, Microsoft, Google, Amazon, and the myriad of other corporations who wrongly assume that privacy is a privilege, and not a right. How do you intend to wage this battle? With lawyers? Guns? Money? I have none of those. However, I can still vote with my wallet and my feet. There's no need to be a casualty during the fight when perfectly viable alternatives exist in the form of Linux.

I want to address your concerns regarding Linux. Please bear in mind that I am not yet a user.

More Availability
This is simply not true. Let's ignore the store-purchased-box delivery model, since it is quickly becoming irrelevant (if it isn't already). The Windows Store is a very immature product with a ton of problems. This very thread is a testament to the issues surrounding it. On the contrary, the Linux RPM/DEB system is mature with over a decade of support and development. I would argue that the Ubuntu system of using SPM is the 2nd most mature software delivery system, right behind Apple. Even STEAM is placing a priority on support for Linux, making the "Linux sucks for gaming" argument weak as well.

More Software
Yes, there is probably more windows software available. But I would also argue that whatever you can do in Windows can also be accomplished in Linux. This old argument is quickly becoming irrelevant.

More Documentation
Seriously? Microsoft is going backwards on documentation. There have been plenty of articles and complaints about how little documentation there is for Win10 and its various patches/updates. This lack of documentation is one of the reasons I avoid certain patches in Windows Update nowadays.

More Job Relevance
Yes, there are probably more Windows support jobs out there, but you don't have to run the OS personally to work a job supporting it. Gone are the days of DOS commands, IRQ conflicts, driver problems, configuration settings, and working black magic to get the OS to behave. Any monkey can punch a query into Google and come up with an answer in a few minutes. Rather, I would argue that a professed knowledge of Linux implies competency with other operating systems as well.

I'll agree that there will not be a mass migration to Linux. It just aint gonna happen. People will choose convenience over courage every time. As you said, "They've already seen their plan works with phones."

In the end, this may all be a good thing. It may separate the consumers from the users and help to preserve Linux as an enthusiast's OS, with all the freedom that goes along with it. I certainly hope so, because Linux is shaping up to be the only alternative we have left.