darry wrote on 2022-03-18, 22:00:

IMHO, that reads more like "we don't support it and don't care if it doesn't work ( likely because it is not being tested anymore)" rather than "we are explicitly and intentionally preventing it from working".

For what it’s worth, I also had issues with a PNY drive on a SATA to IDE adapter. As far as I can tell, they’ve done something to drop support for SATA 1 with their drives.

Sunoo wrote on 2022-03-18, 22:57:

darry wrote on 2022-03-18, 22:00:

IMHO, that reads more like "we don't support it and don't care if it doesn't work ( likely because it is not being tested anymore)" rather than "we are explicitly and intentionally preventing it from working".

For what it’s worth, I also had issues with a PNY drive on a SATA to IDE adapter. As far as I can tell, they’ve done something to drop support for SATA 1 with their drives.

I have also found annecdotal evidence from as far back as 2016 regarding this (see edit to my post). So far, this seems to be only PNY, AFAICT and does not look like a wider industry trend or at least not a widely publicized one .

It would be nice to know the technical reason .

darry wrote on 2022-03-18, 23:33:

It would be nice to know the technical reason .

I would also love to hear that. It was my understanding that the specs are intentionally backwards and forwards compatible.

so what other modern storage solutions are out there besides ide to cf cards?

You could pick up an IDE DOM. I haven’t tried those myself yet, but I know some people have had good luck.

vkcpolice wrote on 2022-03-19, 09:37:

so what other modern storage solutions are out there besides ide to cf cards?

SLC based SSDs

vkcpolice wrote on 2022-03-19, 09:37:

so what other modern storage solutions are out there besides ide to cf cards?

RAM "disks", also. Or RAM "drives", as hipsters now call them. As if not both terms do falsely refer to moving parts. 😉

The type of RAM disk I mean were physical storage devices based on DDR/DDR2 RAM.
They either connected via PCI or IDE/SATA.
They were very expensive, though. But provided almost instant booting and disk access.
Just like a traditional RAM disk that's managed through the OS.

Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-RAM
Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX99SNFiLwU
Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sts3ZqYdObM

In the distant past, such RAM disks were also sometimes attached via floppy controller.
Thus, they could be used in DOS based environments very easily.
Sizes went from 512 KB to 2 MB or 4MB.

Looking back, this seems very silly perhaps, but there used to be high-speed floppy controllers in the MBit/s range. These were used for streamers, for example.

And years before that, innovative PC compatible computers in the spirit of the Tandy 1000 had battery-backed RAM that could be used as RAM drive.

I’ve had nothing but trouble with these adapters.

Just ditch the ide entirely. Get a add in card. The promise tx4 sata II card works very well for me.

It's also possible go gain fast access times by using a RAID for SSDs.

Here's a funny video that demonstrates this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eULFf6F5Ri8

😀

vkcpolice wrote on 2022-03-19, 09:37:

so what other modern storage solutions are out there besides ide to cf cards?

Here's some info:
https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/Storage# … Retro_Computers

I added a note about the Sata 1 support under Sata storage devices.

Let me know if you have any additions, updates or modifications to contribute.

Just adding to this, on a new Win98 build I used my trusted brand of cheapo SATA>IDE converter ('Multibao' link below). Had two SSD's, the first one a 128gb Silicon Power ('
Silicon Power SSD 128GB 3D NAND A55 SLC Cache Performance Boost 2.5 inch SATA III 7mm (0.28") Internal Solid State Drive') took a long time to format, and an inordinate amount of time at the Microsoft ScanDisk File Allocation tables checking step, and Setup was also going very slow so aborted. Switched to the 2nd 128GB ('
fanxiang S100 128GB SSD SATA III 2.5" Internal Solid State Drive, Chinese Style, Read Speed up to 550MB/sec, Compatible with Laptop and PC') and this one worked fast like I am used to for the Win98 install. So whilst the first was recognised and played, it seemed to be very slow.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08VR9YQ3 … 0?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07KR25Q72?ref=pp … _fed_asin_title (Slow drive)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BX612GB7?ref=pp … _fed_asin_title (Good drive)

douglar wrote on 2022-03-19, 20:16:

Here's some info:
https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/Storage# … Retro_Computers

The Wiki is missing other solutions like SATA PCI Controller cards and SATA SSD to SCSI Adapters or SD to SCSI Adapters.
SCSI is a little bit more powerful than old IDE (ATA). If I am not mistaken, Trim support requires at least the ATA/ATAPI-7 (according to Wikipedia) ACS-2 instruction set, ACS-2 was released in 2008, that's after ATA/ATAPI-8. So it is not only a question of the operating system, but also of the hardware. Old IDE controllers did not support ATA/ATAPI-7 ACS-2. This means that regularly booting an operating system that supports Trim would not be enough. This means that regularly booting an operating system that supports Trim to execute the Trim command would not be enough. If the ATA protocol does not support this Trim command, even the best OS is useless. You would have to regularly install such an SSD in a modern computer in order to execute the Trim command every now and then.

Network booting might also be an option. With a corresponding boot ROM in the Ethernet NIC, this should also work with DOS. And that is probably the most elegant solution, because you can then use a modern computer in the network.

Exploit wrote on 2024-09-18, 04:10:

douglar wrote on 2022-03-19, 20:16:

Here's some info:
https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/Storage# … Retro_Computers

The Wiki is missing other solutions like SATA PCI Controller cards and SATA SSD to SCSI Adapters or SD to SCSI Adapters.
SCSI is a little bit more powerful than old IDE (ATA). If I am not mistaken, Trim support requires at least the ATA/ATAPI-7 (according to Wikipedia) ACS-2 instruction set, ACS-2 was released in 2008, that's after ATA/ATAPI-8. So it is not only a question of the operating system, but also of the hardware. Old IDE controllers did not support ATA/ATAPI-7 ACS-2. This means that regularly booting an operating system that supports Trim would not be enough. This means that regularly booting an operating system that supports Trim to execute the Trim command would not be enough. If the ATA protocol does not support this Trim command, even the best OS is useless. You would have to regularly install such an SSD in a modern computer in order to execute the Trim command every now and then.

Thanks for the feedback. Those are interesting topics.

Regarding ACS -- When the SATA to ACS-1 to ACS-2 transition occurred, it all sort of happened below the radar for me. Wasn't as noticeable as the ATA steps or the PATA-SATA migration, so I didn't really noticing it happen at the time. Partly because I had gotten out of the corporate desktop upgrade business in '99 so it wasn't my bread and butter, and partly because I wasn't hitting the big compatibility bumps at home. Yes I wanted 3gbps NCQ sata drives that I saw on Anandtech in 2005. I bought them and they worked. No, I didn't think about ACS at all. Yes, I wanted trim support on my first SSD's. Was not advertised as an optional ACS-2 feature. To be fair, the Sata people didn't really didn't make much clear at the time. https://www.anandtech.com/show/1716 It will probably help me fill in my knowledge gaps to write something up about that.

SCSI is an emotional issue for many. Here are my thoughts. The reason why I have not put much stuff in about retro computing with SCSI are because 1) functioning SCSI drives are becoming scarcer than the controllers 2) the solid state SCSI solutions for retro hardware are an order of magnitude more expensive than similarly performing ATA solutions and 3) while ATA had its fair share of limitations, they are well known & well documented limitations,. But SCSI? I found the success of my home brew SCSI builds to be a murkier picture, both in the 1990's and today. It always felt like there was luck and superstition involved. The stuff that came preassembled from vendors worked great, yes, and before UDMA, SCSI was pretty much the only way to burn a CD-rom reliably. But when working on retro hardware? If I was trying to run a multi-tasking OS on 486 hardware and I had lucked into big-budget parts? Sure, I'd mess with SCSI. But as it is, if I feel like the ATA solution is not performing up to par, I know I go solidstate ATA on the cheap without all the headaches. Are there any good retro SCSI tutorials out there that you can recommend as a starting point for people that want to do SCSI??

douglar wrote on 2024-09-18, 15:21:

Thanks for the feedback. Those are interesting topics. […]
Show full quote

Exploit wrote on 2024-09-18, 04:10:

douglar wrote on 2022-03-19, 20:16:

Here's some info:
https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/Storage# … Retro_Computers

The Wiki is missing other solutions like SATA PCI Controller cards and SATA SSD to SCSI Adapters or SD to SCSI Adapters.
SCSI is a little bit more powerful than old IDE (ATA). If I am not mistaken, Trim support requires at least the ATA/ATAPI-7 (according to Wikipedia) ACS-2 instruction set, ACS-2 was released in 2008, that's after ATA/ATAPI-8. So it is not only a question of the operating system, but also of the hardware. Old IDE controllers did not support ATA/ATAPI-7 ACS-2. This means that regularly booting an operating system that supports Trim would not be enough. This means that regularly booting an operating system that supports Trim to execute the Trim command would not be enough. If the ATA protocol does not support this Trim command, even the best OS is useless. You would have to regularly install such an SSD in a modern computer in order to execute the Trim command every now and then.

Thanks for the feedback. Those are interesting topics.

Regarding ACS -- When the SATA to ACS-1 to ACS-2 transition occurred, it all sort of happened below the radar for me. Wasn't as noticeable as the ATA steps or the PATA-SATA migration, so I didn't really noticing it happen at the time. Partly because I had gotten out of the corporate desktop upgrade business in '99 so it wasn't my bread and butter, and partly because I wasn't hitting the big compatibility bumps at home. Yes I wanted 3gbps NCQ sata drives that I saw on Anandtech in 2005. I bought them and they worked. No, I didn't think about ACS at all. Yes, I wanted trim support on my first SSD's. Was not advertised as an optional ACS-2 feature. To be fair, the Sata people didn't really didn't make much clear at the time. https://www.anandtech.com/show/1716 It will probably help me fill in my knowledge gaps to write something up about that.

SCSI is an emotional issue for many. Here are my thoughts. The reason why I have not put much stuff in about retro computing with SCSI are because 1) functioning SCSI drives are becoming scarcer than the controllers 2) the solid state SCSI solutions for retro hardware are an order of magnitude more expensive than similarly performing ATA solutions and 3) while ATA had its fair share of limitations, they are well known & well documented limitations,. But SCSI? I found the success of my home brew SCSI builds to be a murkier picture, both in the 1990's and today. It always felt like there was luck and superstition involved. The stuff that came preassembled from vendors worked great, yes, and before UDMA, SCSI was pretty much the only way to burn a CD-rom reliably. But when working on retro hardware? If I was trying to run a multi-tasking OS on 486 hardware and I had lucked into big-budget parts? Sure, I'd mess with SCSI. But as it is, if I feel like the ATA solution is not performing up to par, I know I go solidstate ATA on the cheap without all the headaches. Are there any good retro SCSI tutorials out there that you can recommend as a starting point for people that want to do SCSI??

It might be worth adding a warning about the known "disappearing partition" issue affecting, AFAIK, at least some (probably all) FC1307 chip firmware variants used in Sintechi and similar adapters. There is some info in a thread here starting at about [1] and more significantly here [2] (TY to @jmarsh ) and following posts.

[1]
Re: Using a vintage multi-track recorder as a mixer, namely the Roland VS-880EX - might apply to other Roland VS- units

[2]
Re: Using a vintage multi-track recorder as a mixer, namely the Roland VS-880EX - might apply to other Roland VS- units