VileR wrote on 2023-07-13, 06:19:

dionb wrote on 2023-07-12, 20:05:

Model F capacitive buckling spring board with modern minimalist 84-key SSK layout, made with the original tooling brought out of retirement.

Is that from https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/? I had no idea that the original Model F tooling was involved.

I was pleased to see that they finally introduced full-sized keyboards earlier this year. Admittedly, I'd love to have this one, but for the fact that it's pre-order with no definite shipping date besides 'later this year'. I've also seen a couple of reports stating that their keyboards didn't come though shipping in the best of states, which makes me a bit wary.

Yep, that's the source. No issues with shipping here, but you have to have patience - and trust that you are actually on the list, as you get zero communications between submitting form and getting that email (in my case over a year later) saying it's your turn and please pay.

Daniël Oosterhuis wrote on 2023-07-13, 12:02:

I don't think you'll find many that do, beyond some nostalgia :D Ball mice were just technically inferior, and unlike old mechan […]
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doublebuffer wrote on 2023-07-13, 11:45:

Nor for the mice for that matter.

I don't think you'll find many that do, beyond some nostalgia 😁
Ball mice were just technically inferior, and unlike old mechanical keyboards, don't exactly provide an experience you'd want to go back to!

Well, unlike you like having to clean rubber balls frequently and all the fun that comes from that! 😁

Microsoft Trackball Explorer. Not quite as old as the keyboards here, but in a league of its own in terms of desirability and unfortunately very limited availability. Now if someone were to re-make that I would get very, very happy and order enough to last me until the end of my days. As it is I have six, four of which are in good order, the other two are for parts.

Jo22 wrote on 2023-07-13, 14:29:

Weren't there at least two Model F, though? 🤷‍♂️
My father had the version for the AT (num block, LEDs) which looked different to the Model Fs used on XTs.

Lots more, from the original PC/XT keyboards via AT and a number of specialist models up to the F122 'battleship'. I have one and actually I think its keys feel and sound better than the new model, but my desk simply isn't big enough for that monstrosity 😉

Jo22 wrote on 2023-07-13, 14:50:

[...] […]
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[...]

Does anybody by any chance know how Cherry keyboards relate to this?
They used to be popular in my place, ca. mid-late 80s to early 90s, but not necessarily because for being cheap.
Some models even looked quite similar to the Model M.

Cherry was (and is) a major manufacturer of decent but unremarkable mechanical switches. Completely different to IBMs buckling spring designs, with modular individual switch units per key. In the 1980s and early 1990s, their black (linear, fairly stiff) switches were popular with typists preferring the blue (clicky and light, very rattly style). Back in the day Alps switches were generally seen as a better implementation of the same idea, but Alps stopped production leaving the field open to Cherry, which - also having the advantage of very easily interchangeable keycaps - became the default standard for mechanical keyboards today.

Note that the switches used are only a small part of keyboard ergonomics; the (in)flexibility of the keycaps, the curvature (or lack thereof) of the board and the sculpting, weight and material of the keycaps are all relevant too. Just take a look at Cherry's own G80-1000 and G80-3000 ranges that ran concurrently for almost a decade. The G80-1000 was a solid, metal-backed design that was obviously inspired by the Model M Enhanced Keyboard, but refined it quite a bit and can be considered progenitor of today's 'standard' keyboards. It was available with all of Cherry's then current switches and keycaps. The G80-3000 was a cheaper all-plastic version that could use the same switches and keycaps. It was - and is (unlike the G80-1000 it's still in production) - a sad, bendy, noisy unpleasant thing to type on.

Started restoring this kind of keyboard, anyone recognize the type? It has these springs over membrane.

The typing feel is not great but not terrible. I wonder if I could upgrade it to modern mechanical switches.

doublebuffer wrote on 2023-07-12, 16:17:

Why are old keyboards so desirable (and hence, pricey)? I know IBM keyboards had this special buckling spring mechanism which some prefer, but I see bog standard beige keyboards with 100+ price stickers, to my knowledge they are not mechanical, and if I remember correctly when I have used there was nothing special in them or maybe it's an acquired taste or am I missing something?

Here, common membrane keyboards in nice shape are around 12-20$. Reason, why they are not for $5 is, that there are collectors, they just want various types, with nice look (non-yellowed). Some of them are lazy, or unable to do retro bright, which takes time and some little $ too. That's why they rather take nice non-yellowed membrane keyboard, and usually take 1-2 extra , for reserve. They usually bid over themselves, so price on auctions is going up. It can reach 25$ per piece, depends on country too.
Would say, $100 are only mechanical ones, and even that those rarer of them.

Early computer users were used to typewriters and expected to hear a sound when they pressed a key, else they assumed something was wrong and the keypress hadn't registered.

My favorite old mechanical keyboard came with our Wang PC when I was a kid. I've never been as comfortable typing on anything else. It got stepped on so the space bar is broken.
It must be an obscure model because I was frustrated by my inability to find another one. I always wondered if the same keyboard existed under some OEM brand name, but I never found one that matched.
Finally a few years ago I found another one (also Wang branded) at a decent price.
It works, but the Alps key switches are very worn out. If I ever have money to blow on the project I need to see about buying a whole new set of keyswitches and replacing them all. I bet that's expensive.

The trouble with keyboards is they're hard to store. They take a lot of space and you can't put pressure against them.

I have an old white rubber membrane keyboard from Dell that I'm sure is worthless, but I was excited when I found it at a Goodwill. The condition was like new and it's a perfect match for a P2 Dell Optiplex that I have. Apparently they made the same keyboard in both colors because I later found a black one. I guess that was the transition period from white to black.

shamino wrote on 2023-07-14, 07:23:

My favorite old mechanical keyboard came with our Wang PC when I was a kid. I've never been as comfortable typing on anything e […]
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My favorite old mechanical keyboard came with our Wang PC when I was a kid. I've never been as comfortable typing on anything else. It got stepped on so the space bar is broken.
It must be an obscure model because I was frustrated by my inability to find another one. I always wondered if the same keyboard existed under some OEM brand name, but I never found one that matched.
Finally a few years ago I found another one (also Wang branded) at a decent price.
It works, but the Alps key switches are very worn out. If I ever have money to blow on the project I need to see about buying a whole new set of keyswitches and replacing them all. I bet that's expensive.

Finding Alps switches is going to be a bigger challenge - Alps no longer makes them. Matias makes Alps-compatbile switches though so you could look there. However the switches might not be worn, just dirty. Alps switches are notorious for getting awfully scratchy after a while.

Disassemble and clean them to fix that. Just one problem (or rather 101 problems): it's an incredibly labour-intensive, fiddly process...

The trouble with keyboards is they're hard to store. They take a lot of space and you can't put pressure against them.

If you don't have matching boxes, I find on their side on shelves works pretty well. Most of mine (that Battleship is just too huge) fit nicely on a 50cm deep Ikea Ivar shelf.

dionb wrote on 2023-07-12, 20:05:

insanitor wrote on 2023-07-12, 18:20:

Buckling spring keyboards are still being made in Kentucky. […]
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Buckling spring keyboards are still being made in Kentucky.

Here is their website:

https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/SFNT

Their new keyboards can be made with Windows keys and all sorts of other keys and they are made with PS/2 or USB according to your preference.

Be aware that these keyboards might need the machine screw and nut mod. But if you don’t want to go through that then they do offer a repair service for their products or any other IBM Model M.

I love my Unicomp keyboard. I’ll never go back to cheap keyboards that don’t even last a year.

Unicomp has some of the best service I've seen in the business. I can't recommend them enough for that.

Unfortunately I'm not so lyrical about the keyboards themselves. They are a lot lighter than the older Model M boards, which makes them noisier and flimsy-feeling. I would go for a vintage Model M (1st, 2nd or 3rg gen) any day before a new Unicomp. Plus the new ones have the same 2KRO issue as the old ones, even with USB interface.

I believe that the flimsy feelingness comes from the way in which the caps are attached to the part that’s REALLY attached to whatever is connected to the part that makes it work.

Even a real model M will start to feel flimsy in its old age. The quietness is also a result of age so just use a unicomp enough and it will quiet down.

People might prefer to use original model M keyboards but if that is so important to you then just get it repaired and forget about getting yourself a new unicomp.

insanitor wrote on 2023-07-14, 10:37:

[...]

I believe that the flimsy feelingness comes from the way in which the caps are attached to the part that’s REALLY attached to whatever is connected to the part that makes it work.

Even a real model M will start to feel flimsy in its old age.

I disagree. I have several, including the one I've had since my parents bought a PS/2 in 1988. It's 2nd generation, weighs 50% more than my Unicomp and is immeasurably more solid. I also have a couple of 3rd gen keyboards which are slightly lighter but still much closer to the old 2nd gen than to the Unicomp. Those old boards can definitely break - generally the plastic rivets holding the assembly together - but that can be fixed by a bolt mod. None of my boards have issues with that.

The quietness is also a result of age so just use a unicomp enough and it will quiet down.

That might be true for the spring itself (although my Unicomp is >15yo already, so if it was going to quiet down it would already have done so), but most of it is plain acoustics: a thick, heavy piece of plastic will dampen sounds more than a light, thin piece. Moreover the sounds let through will have a lower tone. That's exactly the difference in volume and quality of sound I experience here.

I also build custom modern mechanical keyboards and the same is true there: sound and feel of a board are determined just as much by (weight of) materials in case and keycaps as by any characteristics of the switches used.

People might prefer to use original model M keyboards but if that is so important to you then just get it repaired and forget about getting yourself a new unicomp.

Yes, that's what it boils down to, unfortunately. Which is a crying shame as I really want to support Unicomp and thoroughly recommend them for any spares or replacement parts.

dionb wrote on 2023-07-15, 11:01:

I disagree. I have several, including the one I've had since my parents bought a PS/2 in 1988. It's 2nd generation, weighs 50% m […]
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insanitor wrote on 2023-07-14, 10:37:

[...]

I believe that the flimsy feelingness comes from the way in which the caps are attached to the part that’s REALLY attached to whatever is connected to the part that makes it work.

Even a real model M will start to feel flimsy in its old age.

I disagree. I have several, including the one I've had since my parents bought a PS/2 in 1988. It's 2nd generation, weighs 50% more than my Unicomp and is immeasurably more solid. I also have a couple of 3rd gen keyboards which are slightly lighter but still much closer to the old 2nd gen than to the Unicomp. Those old boards can definitely break - generally the plastic rivets holding the assembly together - but that can be fixed by a bolt mod. None of my boards have issues with that.

The quietness is also a result of age so just use a unicomp enough and it will quiet down.

That might be true for the spring itself (although my Unicomp is >15yo already, so if it was going to quiet down it would already have done so), but most of it is plain acoustics: a thick, heavy piece of plastic will dampen sounds more than a light, thin piece. Moreover the sounds let through will have a lower tone. That's exactly the difference in volume and quality of sound I experience here.

I also build custom modern mechanical keyboards and the same is true there: sound and feel of a board are determined just as much by (weight of) materials in case and keycaps as by any characteristics of the switches used.

People might prefer to use original model M keyboards but if that is so important to you then just get it repaired and forget about getting yourself a new unicomp.

Yes, that's what it boils down to, unfortunately. Which is a crying shame as I really want to support Unicomp and thoroughly recommend them for any spares or replacement parts.

Well, I can’t dispute this since I do not own an IBM model M keyboard. I only cited my info from a YouTube video I saw about this.

But your info comes from your personal experience so I’ll do the same.

I have two buckling spring keyboards. A Unicomp and a Dell.

The Dell has never given me a problem. Ever. 5 Stars in that sense. But it has no a Windows key.

My Unicomp has a Windows key but I had to send it back to Unicomp several times due to broken plastic rivets.

Eventually I got sick of this and I performed the bolt mod.

Since then, my Unicomp performs flawlessly. It’s my best keyboard. Ever.

I cannot tell any difference between them, I just need a keyboard that lasts for years and that’s all I need.

The sound they make or how the keys feel is of no concern to me. As long as the keys don’t fall off, I’m good.

dionb wrote on 2023-07-13, 16:42:

Microsoft Trackball Explorer. Not quite as old as the keyboards here, but in a league of its own in terms of desirability and unfortunately very limited availability. Now if someone were to re-make that I would get very, very happy and order enough to last me until the end of my days. As it is I have six, four of which are in good order, the other two are for parts.

I should have probably specified that I meant "normal" mice that track movement with a ball in the bottom, gliding over a surface like a desk or mouse mat. Trackballs are a different matter 😊 🖲️

Daniël Oosterhuis wrote on 2023-07-17, 08:12:

dionb wrote on 2023-07-13, 16:42:

Microsoft Trackball Explorer. Not quite as old as the keyboards here, but in a league of its own in terms of desirability and unfortunately very limited availability. Now if someone were to re-make that I would get very, very happy and order enough to last me until the end of my days. As it is I have six, four of which are in good order, the other two are for parts.

I should have probably specified that I meant "normal" mice that track movement with a ball in the bottom, gliding over a surface like a desk or mouse mat. Trackballs are a different matter 😊 🖲️

Those early Mouse Systems optical mice with steel mousepad with grid are also getting quite sought-after, as are very early Microsoft-branded mice (ugh, the thought alone makes my wrist tendons throb).

Most of time it is tactile which give you instant feedback. Clacking noise is not quite as easy to connect with when typing because ears is open to around you instead of that keyboard. Same with gamers who prefers to hear the explosions and screams of thing dying.

Cheers,

dionb wrote on 2023-07-14, 10:05:

Finding Alps switches is going to be a bigger challenge - Alps no longer makes them. Matias makes Alps-compatbile switches though so you could look there. However the switches might not be worn, just dirty. Alps switches are notorious for getting awfully scratchy after a while.

Disassemble and clean them to fix that. Just one problem (or rather 101 problems): it's an incredibly labour-intensive, fiddly process...

That might be all that's wrong. Thanks for the tip on cleaning them, I'll look into that.