dr.zeissler wrote:

What should tests should I do for you?

Doc

Just this benchmark please: http://www.philscomputerlab.com/486-benchmark-suite.html

With and without caches, or however else you configure your machine.

I just tried slowing down my slot 1 machine. 3dbench runs at about 1 frame per 3 seconds, took 15 minutes to finish, and yet still says 62.1 fps... uh, okay.

BTW we have some threads on here from a few years ago that explored what could be done with Slot 1 for making a machine with varied speed. A nice thing about Slot 1 is how fast you can change CPUs too. Unfortunately most of those people don't come by anymore.

Which Pentium IIs can be underclocked?
Slowing a 440BX based PC

swaaye wrote:

BTW we have some threads on here from a few years ago that explored what could be done with Slot 1 for making a machine with varied speed. A nice thing about Slot 1 is how fast you can change CPUs too. Unfortunately most of those people don't come by anymore.

Which Pentium IIs can be underclocked?
Slowing a 440BX based PC

Other good boards for slowing down a PII is the Gigabyte BX2000 and the BX2000+, they have a working 2X multiplier with L2 cache. It only works with Klamath CPUs though as my unlocked Deschutes gets the L2 cache disabled at multipliers below 3x.

The downside is the same as with the Asus board, dip switches so routing jumpers to the front panel of the case for easy speed changing wont work. Not sure if these boards support any FSB below 66 MHz but I have not mapped out the 4 FSB dip switches yet so its a maybe.

Doom timedemo just finished after nearly 2 hours. Timed 2134 gametics in 233910 realtics, so that's 0.32 fps. Without underclocking 😀

What do I win?

philscomputerlab wrote:

Sure, please share your machine!

Thanks for the kind words. I know my thinking is often a bit non-mainstream, but I also know than many have similar thoughts. And even if you don't, there is always something to learn and apply to your own project 😀

OK! Then a new little bit non-mainstream in another project for free knowledgebase about "multi-period" and "multi-OS" machines with 100% compatibility.
As I said its most compatible period is 1993-2009. Its slowest mode with L2 disabled in DOS benchmark is similar to Athlon-700, its fastest mode is Dual Core at frequency 3GHz with L2=4MB. Also this computer can be used as a modern "inet-surfing" "office" system with OS Windows 7.

First, motherboard.

Tertz wrote:

Highend DOS PC is P3 600 MHz or may be even a little higher, - the fastest until ISA existed in MBs and issues appeared with sound and video, some from pre-Tualatin times.

Sorry, but.. YES and NO at the same time. More NO than YES. The latest and the fastest chipset that you can find with soldered ISA bus and Legacy DMA function is Intel 865/875 with ICH5 SouthBridge. "Issues appeared with sound and video" are taking their reason in FSB and CPU clock frequency. If i865 chipset is working at 100 MHz FSB and lower frequencies at CPU we can see a trouble-free work with an old games. Also I found that configuration FSB400/DDR266x2 in 3D tests (Windows XP) has almost exact perfomance as FSB800/DDR400x2. Therefore I leave FSB400 as constant.
The mobo is Itox/DFI G7S620-N. Here it is:

Now the CPU. I chosen Core 2 Extreme X6800 because:
1) It can work at 100MHz FSB400.
2) It has unlocked multiplier, the range is 6-31 (!), at clock 100MHz we can get 600-3100MHz with minimal step 50MHz between 600-1400MHz and steps 100MHz from 1400 up to 3100MHz.
3) It can easy disable its L2 cache (for DOS). And the cache is large, 4MB. It is very well for Windows XP games!
Of course this mobo doesn't support Core 2 CPUs. It supports only Pentium 4 and Pentium D in default. Its BIOS was modded for Core 2 support by LLC and White. Many thanks for them! And: many thanks to i8088, he wrote for me the DOS programs which switch L2 en/dis and set multiplier.

The RAM - DDR 4x1GB. Dual Channel. Comments: Windows XP can use 3,2GB. Windows 7x64 can use all RAM volume. About Windows 98 it is necessary to talk a little more. I want to say for all, never use MaxFileCache/MaxPhysPage parameters in system.ini if you have 1,5-2GB and more plugged physical memory! Don't ask me why, it is very big and difficult subject, if you have real interest please read it especially. In short I recommend to use a memory driver burnmem.sys because it is the only driver that lets you to use after its own loading a standard himem.sys driver. When using burnmem.sys it's better to limit 512MB, sometimes 1024MB (not always, need to check).

Video: there are two cards. First for Win98/DOS7, second for WinXP/7.
"1st" PCI 3dfx Voodoo 5500 64MB. Direct3D, OpenGL, Glide. No comments.

"2nd" AGP8X Radeon HD3850 512MB. Windows XP DirectX9 driver, Windows 7 DirectX 11 driver. The fastest AGP card! No comments.

Later I will tell more. Thank you.

I noticed you used the Gigabyte GA-5AX.
I happen to own the Gigabyte GA-5AA (with an AMD K6-2 450 MHz currently installed), which is very similar to the one you have, apart from some small differences:

• Different ALI chipset and
  My motherboard has a dual AT/ATX power connector, which makes it ideal to be installed in an older AT case (mine is currently installed in an AT case).

However, despite the case (and motherboard) having a turbo switch connector, it doesn't quite work that well so, the method you've described in your tutorial is the best route to be able to slow down the PC in different "modes".

I agree that 128 MB is sufficient, as some games (like Ultima VIII) doesn't work too well with more than 128 MB of RAM installed and, games from that era did not require more than 128 MB of RAM.

The only other thing I would consider installing as well would be an "intelligent" mode MPU-401 MIDI interface, hooked up to a Roland MT-32 or compatible module, which you can then feed back into the sound card's line input (ideal for all those old DOS games that did support the MT-32 or compatible for music playback).
The fact that the sound card has a General MIDI compatible wave table synthesis on board, makes it easier for General MIDI supported games.

One will just need to add some extra menu options (in the boot menu) to be able to route the (MT-32) MIDI sounds via the "intelligent" mode MPU-401 MIDI interface and bypass the sound card's MPU-401 UART MIDI interface.
I used to have such a setup in place (on my AMD 486DX4-100) a while ago before I bought my Roland SC-55 - now I route all my MIDI sounds via my "intelligent mode" MPU-401 and completely disable my sound card's MPU-401 interface.
Only thing I'm not sure about is how a Roland MPU-401 or later models (like your MPU-IPC-T) will "behave" in such a fast computer.

Just thought I'd share my results of benchmarking my SS7 using the same overall config of Phil's: 66MHz FSB, 6x multiplier, 2x in every mode but full speed through software.
K6-III+ 400MHz
FIC PA-2013 motherboard, uses VIA MVP3 chipset, has 2MB L3 cache on-board
Matrox Mystique 220
2x256MB PC100 RAM, CL2

I have also optimized the BIOS to give the best overall performance, and surprisingly it's quite stable. Didn't bother with making the video BIOS and system BIOS cacheable, and disabled video BIOS shadow. Needless instability there.

386 mode: 386DX-25
3DBench: 9.7
PCBench: 2.6
Doom: 4.03
Quake: 1.6

486 mode (L1 + L2 disabled, L3 enabled): somewhere between a 486DX-25 and 486DX-33
3DBench: 20.4
PCBench: 6.0
Doom: 9.68
Quake: 3.6

Pentium mode: equivalent of Pentium 120
3DBench: 134.1
PCBench: 49.7
Doom: 74.24
Quake: 25.4

Full speed: equivalent of Pentium II-400
3DBench: 285.5
PCBench: 108.1
Doom: 101.90
Quake: 54.4

Overall, it seems to be slower than Phil's setup in the two fastest speeds, and about the same, give or take, in the two slower speeds.

I originally had this system always running with 100MHz FSB with a 4x multiplier. It is a bit faster this way with disabling caches. I think I'll leave it at 66MHz FSB though, as it works just as well with not a whole lot of performance difference.

I like that Super Socket 7 build; it makes many builds redundant. However, there is an even more flexible build based around just a Socket 7 board that has a working Turbo function (and of the right type of Turbo - there are many implementations), an AMD k6-III+ CPU and a Socket 7 adapter.

This can give a smooth range of CPU speeds starting from an equivalent speed of around 4.77MHz - 450MHz; so can replace an 8088, 8086, 286, 386, 486, 586/ P1 and early P2 systems. Some boards can go as slow as around 1.4MHz even...

The IBM XT challenge: How slow can you go with i386+ (IA-32) CPUs?

The other flexible type of build is using a P4 ISA system, where disabling caches can get even Ultima 7 working at the appropriate speed (the L1 auto-enabling cache issue isn't present). This type of build starts around a 386/486 with all caches disabled and appropriate VGA cards, but this isn't a smooth transition upto high P4 speeds (has gaps in the lower hundreds-MHz).

jesolo wrote:

I agree that 128 MB is sufficient, as some games (like Ultima VIII) doesn't work too well with more than 128 MB of RAM installed […]
Show full quote

I agree that 128 MB is sufficient, as some games (like Ultima VIII) doesn't work too well with more than 128 MB of RAM installed and, games from that era did not require more than 128 MB of RAM.

The only other thing I would consider installing as well would be an "intelligent" mode MPU-401 MIDI interface, hooked up to a Roland MT-32 or compatible module, which you can then feed back into the sound card's line input (ideal for all those old DOS games that did support the MT-32 or compatible for music playback).
The fact that the sound card has a General MIDI compatible wave table synthesis on board, makes it easier for General MIDI supported games.

One will just need to add some extra menu options (in the boot menu) to be able to route the (MT-32) MIDI sounds via the "intelligent" mode MPU-401 MIDI interface and bypass the sound card's MPU-401 UART MIDI interface.
I used to have such a setup in place (on my AMD 486DX4-100) a while ago before I bought my Roland SC-55 - now I route all my MIDI sounds via my "intelligent mode" MPU-401 and completely disable my sound card's MPU-401 interface.
Only thing I'm not sure about is how a Roland MPU-401 or later models (like your MPU-IPC-T) will "behave" in such a fast computer.

Yes! The Windows 98 boot menu in config.sys by menuitem option, we should type there in DOS section 64-128MB memory size limit and in WIN section 512MB memory size limit (burnmem.sys driver).
And don't doubt and worry about MT-32 Intelligent ISA controllers on fast systems. Be sure they 100% work! Even on i865+ICH5.

jwt27 wrote:

I just tried slowing down my slot 1 machine. 3dbench runs at about 1 frame per 3 seconds, took 15 minutes to finish, and yet still says 62.1 fps... uh, okay.

This is an issue with 3dbench. There are too versions.

1.0c is part of the 486+ benchmark suite, this is the one used in the VGA Benchmark database project. It works great for fast machines, and ok for fast 386 machines, but slow machines it glitches out.

Version 1.0 glitches out with fast machines and it counts over after 99.9 frames, but it's much more accurate with slow computers: http://www.philscomputerlab.com/386-benchmark-suite.html

15 minutes is a very long time. What processor did you use?

I think using a RAMDRIVE instead of something like "burnmem.sys" could be a more interesting approach, since you could still put your swapfile there and somewhat still use that memory.

Try out Warcraft 3, I'm very curious on how well it runs on this system. 😀

Skyscraper wrote:

swaaye wrote:

BTW we have some threads on here from a few years ago that explored what could be done with Slot 1 for making a machine with varied speed. A nice thing about Slot 1 is how fast you can change CPUs too. Unfortunately most of those people don't come by anymore.

Which Pentium IIs can be underclocked?
Slowing a 440BX based PC

Other good boards for slowing down a PII is the Gigabyte BX2000 and the BX2000+, they have a working 2X multiplier with L2 cache. It only works with Klamath CPUs though as my unlocked Deschutes gets the L2 cache disabled at multipliers below 3x.

Ah, good to know! I've got such a board.

PARUS wrote:

OK! Then a new little bit non-mainstream in another project for free knowledgebase about "multi-period" and "multi-OS" machines with 100% compatibility.
As I said its most compatible period is 1993-2009. Its slowest mode with L2 disabled in DOS benchmark is similar to Athlon-700, its fastest mode is Dual Core at frequency 3GHz with L2=4MB. Also this computer can be used as a modern "inet-surfing" "office" system with OS Windows 7.

Very nice! Some high end rear you got there.

jesolo wrote:

I noticed you used the Gigabyte GA-5AX. I happen to own the Gigabyte GA-5AA (with an AMD K6-2 450 MHz currently installed), whic […]
Show full quote

I noticed you used the Gigabyte GA-5AX.
I happen to own the Gigabyte GA-5AA (with an AMD K6-2 450 MHz currently installed), which is very similar to the one you have, apart from some small differences:

• Different ALI chipset and
  My motherboard has a dual AT/ATX power connector, which makes it ideal to be installed in an older AT case (mine is currently installed in an AT case).

However, despite the case (and motherboard) having a turbo switch connector, it doesn't quite work that well so, the method you've described in your tutorial is the best route to be able to slow down the PC in different "modes".

I agree that 128 MB is sufficient, as some games (like Ultima VIII) doesn't work too well with more than 128 MB of RAM installed and, games from that era did not require more than 128 MB of RAM.

The only other thing I would consider installing as well would be an "intelligent" mode MPU-401 MIDI interface, hooked up to a Roland MT-32 or compatible module, which you can then feed back into the sound card's line input (ideal for all those old DOS games that did support the MT-32 or compatible for music playback).
The fact that the sound card has a General MIDI compatible wave table synthesis on board, makes it easier for General MIDI supported games.

One will just need to add some extra menu options (in the boot menu) to be able to route the (MT-32) MIDI sounds via the "intelligent" mode MPU-401 MIDI interface and bypass the sound card's MPU-401 UART MIDI interface.
I used to have such a setup in place (on my AMD 486DX4-100) a while ago before I bought my Roland SC-55 - now I route all my MIDI sounds via my "intelligent mode" MPU-401 and completely disable my sound card's MPU-401 interface.
Only thing I'm not sure about is how a Roland MPU-401 or later models (like your MPU-IPC-T) will "behave" in such a fast computer.

Intelligent mode can enabled through SoftMPU. Works very well with the Audican 32 Plus, no hanging note bugs either.

Yesterday I tested some new tools. Throttle seems to work fine with my PII-333. I am at the beginning, but it seems that all games shown in the 4:1 video will run perfect on my PII too. I do not need my SS7 machine. More to come.

More interesting for benchmarks would be Topbench as it benches the CPU, memory and graphics subsystem independently. Usually this becomes quite unbalanced when slowing down a faster PCI based system compared to a 386 with ISA.

Target: Monster Bash

- Getting the Animation smooth
- Playing the Intro
- Getting Music and Soundeffects (dig-samples)

My PII-333 has issues with this game:

- OutOfThe Box with Himem and EMS

Works:
- Game runs smooth
- I have sound (Adlib Music and digi-Sounds

Not Working:
- no Intro 🙁

Now Testing:
- Cpucache ON/OF (therefore I need to use qemm instead of EMM386)
- Moslo (only trial version available)
- Throttle

Doc

Great updated "Time Machine" video Phil! I'm still rocking my original time machine setup after following your guidance in your original video. Just curious - do you plan on installing your MPU-401AT for connectivity to external modules?

philscomputerlab wrote:

Intelligent mode can enabled through SoftMPU. Works very well with the Audican 32 Plus, no hanging note bugs either.

SoftMPU works very well now with all or almost all SBs and compatibles. Hanging note bug is absent on non-Creative cards and it doesn't matter if SoftMPU is used or not.
One more thing about SoftMPU: for best usable in most games we need IRQ2. The true is that all real Intelligent controllers can use IRQ9 on any motherboard by jumper settings. But if we install SB/compatible card for SoftMPU on newer motherboards we usually can not do so because this IRQ is used by ACPI system and sound card initialization fails. Remember that please. You need to disable ACPI (so bad for Windows) or initialize another IRQ.

I decided this issue by another "non-mainstream" way. My BIOS modded for Core 2 Duo by LLC includes ACPI mod also. Now the ACPI system uses IRQ10! I chosen exactly 10 because this IRQ is not typical for using by ISA sound cards.

OK, let's go on about i865+Core2+DDR+AGP8X+ISA.
Now ISA.
I use a few basic standards for best sound in all games. There are Sound Blaster/Pro, SB16, GUS (GF1), EMU8k, Roland LA, Roland GM.

"Sound Blater/Pro"

Terratec EWS64 XL. S/PDIF IN and OUT! Resources: IO=220 IRQ=7 DMA=1 FM=388 MIDI1=300 MIDI2=320. On the MIDI1 channel I use Dream Synth with its own factory sound banks. On the MIDI2 channel I use MIDI daughterboard Roland GM. Here it is:

Roland GM

Roland SCB-55.

"Sound Blaster 16"

AV310 Audio Excel 3D. S/PDIF IN and OUT! Resources: WSS=dis FM=dis IO=240 IRQ=5 LowDMA=0 HighDMA=5 MPU=330. 100% SB16 standard compatible. On MPU channel Roland LA is connected. It is:

Roland LA

Roland MT-32. No comments.

GUS GF1

Gravis Ultrasound ACE. Resources: IO=250 IRQ=3 DMA=7 FM=dis.

AWE EMU8000

AWE64Gold. S/PDIF OUT! Resources: IO=260 IRQ=9 LowDMA=3 HighDMA=6 MPU=dis FM=dis AWE=640. This card plays through spdif only EMU8k sound. The digital Sound FX in most cases doesn't present on spdif out. Therefore I never use AWE64Gold as SB16. Only as EMU8000 AWE.

If I need Intelligent mode I load SoftMPU by using Sound Blaster IO260 IRQ2 MPU330.
All cards are plugged in 5-slot ISA riser.

Signal Lines Connection.
----------- ------- ---------
GUS Ace MT-32 64Gold
----------- ------- --spdif out
| |
V V
analog in
--------------------spdif in
EWS64XL
--------------------spdif out
| s/pdif
V
--------spdif in
AV310
--------spdif out
| s/pdif
V
Digital Receiver DAC Amplifier.

This is my best DOS sound system.

dr.zeissler wrote:

please test this for me: […]
Show full quote

please test this for me:

- Does "Bodyblows" work with sound and no issues on the K6-III+ ?
- Does "Desert-Strike" run without problems?
- What about "pinball illusions"
- Has JazzJack2 smooth Hardwarescrolling with 640x480 or with 640x400 ?

Doc

I had the CD with Pinball Illusions at home, so I was able to test it today.

The game works fine in Pentium mode and Boot menu option 2. At 400 MHz the sound setup would not initialize, so using Pentium mode fixed that.