VOGONS


Welcome to the updated VOGONS

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Reply 40 of 743, by Jabberwock

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Hello.
Let me speak like the original vogon from the Douglas Adams book - conservative, brick-headed old fart.

New design looks like some hipster have tried to design something "abstract retro" without any idea about retro UI.

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and most confusing of all is this:

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I had relatively strong 8 symbols password and could not login. What the hell?
I hate when somebody is telling me what to do with my passwords. There are MY passwords, anyway! Let ME balance them between security and comfort.
My new password will become something like "new design is stupid".

P.S. But 2Fa is a relly cool feature, yes.

Last edited by Jabberwock on 2019-12-27, 23:08. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 41 of 743, by binarymaster

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Dear god why... the new design hurts me.

I changed zoom ratio to 80% in my browser, it become a bit better. I've seen somebody already suggested here to change settings in forum profile, I'll try that.

by Stas'M

Reply 42 of 743, by imi

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thanks, I hate it.

pretty much all of my worst fears came true.

but worst of all are the unreadable fonts used and the lack of clear seperation between site elements as opposed to the old design.

it's really hard to notice any positives if the main purpose of the whole site (reading things) is as hard as it is now.
I'll have to take a step back for now because this is hurting my eyes unfortunately 🙁

Reply 43 of 743, by Bruninho

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I am just missing the active topics link. Other than that... I need more time to think about

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.
READ: Right to Repair sucks and is illegal!

Reply 44 of 743, by gerwin

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I changed everything to small and old skool in the display settings. At least I am glad these display options are there. Now it is OK I guess.
No fan of the dithered backgrounds. Also I prefer crisp / unsmoothed fonts, but I suppose that is not feasible anymore in this time.

For the people that have trouble with it and are generally sensitive about how to comfortably read digital texts, consider this:
- "Blank your monitor / Easy Reading" addon for older FireFox up to 52.
- Dark Reader addon for new Firefox or Chrome.
If someone knows better ones, then please share.

--> ISA Soundcard Overview // Doom MBF 2.04 // SetMul

Reply 45 of 743, by pewpewpew

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gerwin wrote on 2019-12-27, 23:19:

If someone knows better ones, then please share.

Perhaps not 'better', but will mention Firefox has a built-in Reader View. Ctl-Alt-R.

It's not offered on all types of pages. When available, you have an icon in the URL bar. It's available for threads here. It's NOT made for threads, but at least the body text is more readable...

Very sorry to need to say so, but this is awful. These white fonts are too narrow/bold and kinda glow harshly on my eyes. It's quite nasty to read. My eyes are old yup, and I'll have to compare on other displays... but I'm already comparing it to all my apps and all the other stuff I read here... This is a bad default. It's squinty. I find I'm enlarging it not to make it bigger per se, but to make it wider, to push the squintiness away.

This is basically why you need to avoid hard white letters for body text. That needs the display & lighting conditions of The Designer's display. It's nowhere near as portable as black text and dark grey text are.

Anyway, somebody asked about Active Topics -- here's a link to bookmark while that's being fixed.
search.php?search_id=active_topics

Reply 46 of 743, by Horun

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gerwin wrote:

I changed everything to small and old skool in the display settings. At least I am glad these display options are there. Now it is OK I guess.

I changed my profile > Display too. It will take me a bit to get used too but it is OK !

Actually the Blue looks better than Old Skool now that I have browsed a bit.

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 47 of 743, by gerwin

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pewpewpew wrote on 2019-12-28, 00:03:

Perhaps not 'better', but will mention Firefox has a built-in Reader View. Ctl-Alt-R.

I heard about it but never gave it much of a try.
* tries it *
I suppose the advantage is that it disables downloadable fonts. But besides that I strongly prefer the "blank your monitor" addon. Then I can select my own colors (black text on gray background) and the page structure/layout remains unchanged.
Would also like to have an addon to quickly toggle downloadable fonts in older firefox (52 or older). It is not practical to keep changing gfx.downloadable_fonts.enabled in about:config. And one has to change it since the tool icons are part of the downloadable font.

pewpewpew wrote on 2019-12-28, 00:03:

Anyway, somebody asked about Active Topics -- here's a link to bookmark while that's being fixed.
search.php?search_id=active_topics

Seems exactly the same as 'New posts'?

--> ISA Soundcard Overview // Doom MBF 2.04 // SetMul

Reply 48 of 743, by Bruninho

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It's not that bad in desktop mode and a modern browser. I'm on Safari and macOS Catalina. As with everything, it will take time to get used to it. The active topics link is now "your posts", and it's shown in desktop mode but not in mobile mode.

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.
READ: Right to Repair sucks and is illegal!

Reply 49 of 743, by pewpewpew

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gerwin wrote on 2019-12-28, 00:38:

Seems exactly the same as 'New posts'?

Sure. But I think the point is it's not a link on the front page anymore. ...OH. Until you sign in. I see now, thanks. Hope there's not a lot of that - I usually graze without signing in.

Reply 50 of 743, by verysaving

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This make me say Trallallero Trallalla

Reply 51 of 743, by roytam1

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any chance making theme compatible with old/retro browsers? retrozilla loads site unstyled right now.

Reply 52 of 743, by pan069

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Congrats Vogons team! I think overall it's a great improvement.

Some small suggestions though:

1. The inner border of the purple box (the content box?) please reduce it. The same width as the lighter purple border would be better. On narrow screens atm it just becomes a waste of precious space.

2. The avatar column is taking up way to much space. The Turn of off avatars option just hides the image but the width of the avatar column is simply to wide. Font size can be reduced significantly here as well.

3. Reduce the contrast on the lines. It now looks super blocky. Subtle would probably be better. 😀

Reply 53 of 743, by Bruninho

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Works fine with New Moon 28.8.0a1 so far, on Windows 2000 Professional.

EDIT: Also tested editing on SeaMonkey 2.49.5, Windows 2000 Professional. Both browsers running thanks to BWC Kernel extenders.

I have only one issue: dithered backgrounds make it harder to read.

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.
READ: Right to Repair sucks and is illegal!

Reply 54 of 743, by leileilol

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It was hard to figure out how to log-in. Should have a fitting "DON'T PANIC!" link at the top pointing at clarifying the sudden UX changes.

on the bright side though, it's definitely far more readable with white on purple!!! Helps my advanced age eyes that had to crank up the size over time on the old board. Also the javascript works on this necessarily aged browser so not succumbing to the JS creep artificial regressions of the modern web's also good

I know everyone's not a fan of this new design, but what matters most to me is site functionality and i'm glad that wasn't really stripped in the upgrade process as i've originally feared (since leaving certain forums after their 'upgrades' making it hard to read and post). Does feel more claustrophobic somehow though....

at least it's not vanilla with half of the images offloaded to a google-owned server with megabytes of fonts cached per page load 😉

EDIT: what's with the creative commons link on all the posts AND attachments? That could be making quotes from other pages/ sources and/or attaching screenshots/software be 'relicensed' illegally or so. It'd also probably void any GPL-licensed patches for dosbox too 😖 This is probably my biggest issue with the update since it implies there is no such thing as fair use.

Last edited by leileilol on 2019-12-28, 02:02. Edited 7 times in total.

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long live PCem

Reply 55 of 743, by Cobra42898

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It's like Vista all over again.

Searching for Epson Actiontower 3000 486 PC.

Reply 56 of 743, by wirerogue

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i like the new logo and the party hat.

Reply 57 of 743, by SPBHM

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thank you for all the effort with the upgrade and for keeping the site going

so far it seems to be working well, I have to admit that I miss the old interface, but that has been the case with every single forum I visit over the years (I feel a little weird at first and later get used to it), but the old skool and the 2 small options as mentioned on the FAQ seem to work well for me.

I have to wonder if the site still works in old browsers? perhaps the https added a while back already broke that?

Reply 58 of 743, by debs3759

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Can't say I like the new theme, even with "old skool" settings, but I guess I'll get used to it. I just don't like change 😀

See my graphics card database at www.gpuzoo.com
Constantly being worked on. Feel free to message me with any corrections or details of cards you would like me to research and add.

Reply 59 of 743, by Snover

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Lots of great comments here! I will try to answer things where I feel like I can provide useful feedback (I tried to pick just one if there were multiple comments of the same kind, so your question might be answered here even if you don’t see your original comment):


jesolo wrote on 2019-12-27, 21:39:

How do I view the latest "active topics"?
Previously, there was a link at the top you could click on that listed the latest active topics.

I analysed server logs when deciding which links should be there, and the ones you see are the ones that were shown to be regularly used. “Active topics” was not used very often at all, surprisingly! When I did the analysis, I was so sure that the “your posts” link would have been the one nobody used, but people actually use that a lot. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The “new posts” and “active topics” are almost the same thing—new posts will show you what you haven’t already read, where the “active topics” is just a limited list of topics on the site sorted by last post time. So “new posts” should be more helpful since it will filter out things for you.


Shagittarius wrote on 2019-12-27, 21:34:

Agree, the dithered background adds extra flicker on local dimming displays when you scroll, was just looking for the option to change the color.

Huh, I’m sorry about that! Several people looked at the design on different monitors (I personally reviewed on an IPS LED, retina Mac, retina iPad, and Samsung OLED) and I don’t remember anyone mentioning flickering problems due to the patterns. I’d guess this is probably due to panel overdrive on some panels, so I guess it is not really solvable other than to make it possible to replace the patterns with a solid colour when that happens. I’ve put a note on my list about this.


ATauenis wrote on 2019-12-27, 21:43:

But on a 17 "monitor even with small font size it still very cumbersome. May be need to get accustomed to it, but old design was definitely easier to use (required less scrolling).

Hey, sorry to hear that it feels like everything is too big. Unfortunately, it is difficult to make it perfect for everybody, so the default targets the most common devices: mobiles and 1080p+ monitors with a higher dpi. If you size down the whole site to 80% using your browser’s full page zoom (control-plus and control-minus) that should probably make it “correct” for you, since I’m guessing that monitor is probably closer to 72dpi and so the pixels are pretty large compared to new screens.


Jabberwock wrote on 2019-12-27, 22:56:

I had relatively strong 8 symbols password and could not login. What the hell?
I hate when somebody is telling me what to do with my passwords. There are MY passwords, anyway! Let ME balance them between security and comfort.

I fixed the stand-alone login page not accepting formerly valid passwords; sorry about that! Sometimes one tries to DRY out some code and accidentally adds constraints where they aren’t meant to be.

Unfortunately, most people will just type in something like “password”, given the chance. Also, unless a password database is using a properly configured high-cost password hashing algorithm, an 8 character search space is now small enough to be brute forced in human scale time periods. The GRC Password Haystacks calculator gives a very general idea of the strength of different passwords based on length and complexity; more technical detail on the practical speed of brute forcing hashes can be found by searching about Hashcat.

I think the most secure and comfortable way is to use a password manager which generates strong random passwords that are different for each site, but please do what works for you! 😀


ATauenis wrote on 2019-12-27, 21:49:

[…]on top of the page a new error is appearing:

[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/ext/vogons/tos/event/main.php on line 507: Invalid argument supplied for foreach()
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/ext/vogons/tos/event/main.php on line 507: Invalid argument supplied for foreach()

And attachments are not visible for guests.

Oops! This was unintended. These two things were actually related, and are now both fixed. Thank you for noticing!


ATauenis wrote on 2019-12-27, 21:43:

Why not to add theme selection like most of phpBB forums and add the the old theme as an option for registered users?

This is an excellent question. The answer is simply that there is not enough manpower for this. I know it seems silly on its face—like, hey, the old theme exists already so why can’t it just always exist?—but believe me when I say that phpBB is not as modular and customisable as it seems. Themes are not drop-in replacements, especially across different phpBB versions. Even in patch releases, the phpBB team adds, deletes, and breaks features and this often involves changes to the templates. The templating system is also super broken architecturally; among other things, it sends generated HTML to the templates to be injected instead of passing the raw model data, so things like the language files, which should be totally independent, end up needing to be rewritten to match the theme. It’s absolute lunacy, but it’s what we’re working with here.

VOGONS also has some added customisations which would need to be restyled and tested for every theme, so trying to make that all work across multiple themes would also increase the manpower requirement for maintenance. Since the only reason why this upgrade finally could happen was because I became temporarily disabled due to a medical condition so had the free time to do it, you can see how the desire to keep the maintenance cost low is a pretty strong one.


blurks wrote on 2019-12-27, 22:12:

Is this color theme supposed to be as close to the C64 as it gets or am I missing something here?

Originally it was darker and bluer, but Qbix impressed upon me the importance of purple in the identity of the site, so it became more purple. The lines are the same purple from the old theme. It was a happy coincidence that these colours were close to the C64, and so that became another part of the design.

I really tried to pull in different fragments from the technology and gaming world of the 80s and 90s so the design represented the essence of the site. This is why there is dithering instead of flat shading (the patterns are from CP850), the border (C64!), the intense colours (EGA! also, every magazine from the late 80s), the font (an open source clone of FF Meta, which was super popular in the mid-90s), the use of snake lines and connecting lines in general (also super popular in mid-to-late 90s graphic design), the mouse cursors (Win9x!), etc. It’s hard to tell since this is an in-thing now, but even the thin bordered round buttons took some inspiration from Palm OS.

It’s supposed to be an amalgam, reminiscent of many retro things, not just one thing. This is spoilt largely by accommodations to modern technology and sensibility, and limitations of the web platform:

1. You would definitely murder me if I’d gone all brutalist design and created something that felt like it fell straight out of 1996. You have no idea how much I wanted to do this though. So, so much. You’re welcome I guess.
2. Modern touch devices have tiny screens, and modern humans have fat fingers. So, icons get used more often than text because of the tiny screens, and the buttons (and the spacing around them) gets increased to make sure you can use them. This is pretty not-retro, since early computers didn’t have memory for lots of graphics,
3. Web browsers really don’t want you to be able to do things like draw text without antialiasing. Or lines without antialiasing. Or anything without antialiasing. This is probably for the best when it comes to actually not getting fatigued reading lots of text, but it does take away from that retro feeling. (Also, because this is a forum with user-generated content, it would be basically impossible to do this correctly with a fake-aliased font, since those don’t do what old bitmap fonts did when it comes to making text bigger/smaller.)
4. In the late 80s, desktop publishing became a thing, and boy was that an exciting way for magazine designers to suddenly create insane bespoke layouts on every page. Unfortunately since this whole place is user-generated content it’s not possible to do that.


blurks wrote on 2019-12-27, 22:12:

I especially don't like that I'm unable to directly access the last pages of certain multipage topics from the topic list. Feels counterintuitive to me.

The link in the last post column does still go to the last post of the topic. Is there something else you want to see here? If so, please send it over to the feedback thread.

OK. That is it from me for now. This post is too long so I will follow up with remarks on some of the new posts that exist here since I started writing this in a separate post 😀

Yes, it’s my fault.