Abandonware and Dosbox

Having problems with a specific game or application? Post your problems here!

Re: Abandonware and Dosbox

Postby MiniMax » 2007-3-19 @ 15:54

Spikey wrote:I'm curious now- what's the actual VOGONS policy on locking/deleting threads where someone posts asking for help but mentions an illegally obtained game?

I don't know if we have an official policy, except for this text which is attached to every page here:
This site hosts no abandonware. There is no material that is knowingly illegal here.
zetafleet.dom will not be held responsible for users' posts.
This disclaimer is brought to you thanks to the BSA.

I might have locked a thread or two in my time, but most of the time I simply ignore that particular thread.

Most of the time, the people that uses these illegal obtained copies, has absolutely no clue about DOS. They don't know what a CD or DIR command inside DOSBox will do, if the game comes with an installer it gets installed outside DOSBox and only when it won't run, does DOSBox come into play. And by then, the generated paths in the game config are screwed up beyond repair, and I have to go into the whole story about mounting virtual drives in DOSBox.

Most of the time after that, the thread is abandoned by the original poster, because it was - after all - a free download, so why would s/he invest time in getting it to run? With someone who has spent $10-20 on the game, there is a much greater incentive (on both parties) to find a solution.

Just my opinion.
DOSBox 0.73 ReadMe | DOSBox Wiki | DOSBox 60 seconds guide | How to ask questions
_________________
Lenovo M58p | Core 2 Quad Q8400 @ 2.66 GHz | Radeon R7 240 | LG HL-DT-ST DVDRAM GH40N | Win 10 Pro
User avatar
MiniMax
Moderator
 
Posts: 5128
Joined: 2004-1-18 @ 04:15
Location: Stockholm, Sweden, Europe, Earth Interests: Old games & young women

Re: Abandonware and Dosbox

Postby DosFreak » 2007-3-19 @ 16:01

Usually we aren't too friendly when people mention that they are using an "illegal" copy. It really depends on the moderator who responds.

Discussions about where to get the copy or links to the copies are definetly no no's. Although mentioning whereabouts is sometimes reasonable if it's pretty obscure or ancient. (I've done it a couple of times when mentioning the retrograde site).

Problem is if the user doesn't mention that they are using an "illegal" copy and we try to troubleshoot the problem and it is caused by an "illegal" copy....then we just wasted alot of time.

I generally don't have a problem with users mentioning if they have an "illegal" copy or not as long as they do not flaunt it.

There's also the problem with noob users who use the term "downloading" when they are installing a program.

I see this alot over at NTCompatible when you see users say "I downloaded Sims 2 and now it doesn't run!!! HELP ME!!!!). Almost 95% of the time they were "downloading" from their CDROM/DVD.

Every time I see those kind of posts I think of Nick Burns. :D
User avatar
DosFreak
l33t++
 
Posts: 10354
Joined: 2002-6-30 @ 16:35
Location: Your Head


Re: Abandonware and Dosbox

Postby Hazekel » 2007-3-19 @ 16:06

DosFreak wrote:Every time I see those kind of posts I think of Nick Burns. :D


Who is Nick Burns?
Edit : Okay, saw the link just after I posted. :surprised:

BTW,I Love Loveless DOSfreak.
Last edited by Hazekel on 2007-3-19 @ 16:07, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Hazekel
Member
 
Posts: 228
Joined: 2004-1-06 @ 17:32

Re: Abandonware and Dosbox

Postby Dominus » 2007-3-19 @ 16:07

There's also the problem with noob users who use the term "downloading" when they are installing a program.

really? well, that's food for thought then, never imagined someone would say that to installing. Must keep that in mind :)
User avatar
Dominus
DOSBox Moderator
 
Posts: 7943
Joined: 2002-10-03 @ 09:54
Location: Ludwigsburg

Re: Abandonware and Dosbox

Postby MiniMax » 2007-3-19 @ 17:58

Just to illustrate (yes, they are real posts - not from VOGONS though) the alternative intelligence some people have:

(deleted) wrote:Hey everyone !! I already donwload the game SupaPlex and I need help

I cant run it and I dont know why ...
I love this game !!

can you help me please ?

And 5 minutes later:
(deleted) wrote:maybe I need a dos program ??

can someone give me a link to download this dam dos ?
DOSBox 0.73 ReadMe | DOSBox Wiki | DOSBox 60 seconds guide | How to ask questions
_________________
Lenovo M58p | Core 2 Quad Q8400 @ 2.66 GHz | Radeon R7 240 | LG HL-DT-ST DVDRAM GH40N | Win 10 Pro
User avatar
MiniMax
Moderator
 
Posts: 5128
Joined: 2004-1-18 @ 04:15
Location: Stockholm, Sweden, Europe, Earth Interests: Old games & young women

Re: Abandonware and Dosbox

Postby leileilol » 2007-3-19 @ 19:01

Abandonware sites + (digg + myspace) = disasterous results of new "DOS gamers"

It's a shame that not many "BIG DOS GAMER"s own real dos games.
by the way, DOSBox is not for running Windows 9x
User avatar
leileilol
l33t++
 
Posts: 9775
Joined: 2006-12-16 @ 18:03

Re: Abandonware and Dosbox

Postby avatar_58 » 2007-3-20 @ 01:20

leileilol wrote:Abandonware sites + (digg + myspace) = disasterous results of new "DOS gamers"


Except you'll find the majority of abandonware websites are run by aging gamers who have 'been there' so to speak. Your short sighted generalizations are tad over the top don't you think? I don't understand why you are bent on trying to start an argument here.

Honestly I don't get all these general statements. Abandonware exists just to prevent these games from vanishing forever. Just because you personally own the game doesn't mean everyone else does. I guess that means tough luck eh? The hell with anyone who didn't manage to buy it? I think not.

Theres a reason why the Sierra Compilations and the Command & Conquer Collection exists you know. While you bitch about how the 'evil' EAgames or VU has screwed you over, it's supposed to be for those who never had a chance to play the classics. People who wouldn't notice the defects or issues, and just want to see where their genres/IPs came from. Yet some people can't see past their own faces to the good in preserving classics. It makes me laugh considering this whole damn forum exists solely to keep the memory of old games alive via helping users with problems.

Most people who owned these games ages ago are knowledgeable enough to fix their own problems. Therefore I got news for you - 80% of new posts asking about why Ultima complains about memory are from people who downloaded the game they heard so much about but couldn't purchase it from EAgames anymore. You might consider this sad and immoral, but I smile every single time I know a new gamer has discovered the joy of the classics.

So call me a pirate all you wish, it won't my attitude any. Not while there are dozens of jackasses who steal new games daily. One guy came onto another forum I visit and admitted to stealing STALKER before it was even released. That, my friends, is piracy. This is just a technicality.
User avatar
avatar_58
Oldbie
 
Posts: 955
Joined: 2005-2-02 @ 02:11
Location: Canada

Re: Abandonware and Dosbox

Postby Spikey » 2007-3-20 @ 01:20

Nice, Leileilol.

I guess although I'm 20and so Windows-oriented, I benefited from using a Windows 3.1 machine where DOS was important, and before that an Amstrad where everything was DOS based, so cd, dir, cls, edit and the works are pretty second nature to me.


I think the point about paying for something is perfectly valid- think of how many people buy a shitty game and want to finish it to get 'value for money', yet wouldn't want to try and use DOSBox because they're 'not a tech genius' or whatever.

I run the major Space Quest forum, and you guys should check out the tech support questions. I've been answering them for 5 years now. Admittedly DOSBox has meant there's a LOT less tech support questions, but the new collections with DOSBox loaders have zillions of people stumped apparently.


Hey Avatar, you need to calm down. I'm totally on the same page as you, I like the fact that the new Sierra collections allow more people to play them. But Vivendi pisses me off more than pretty much anything, even my (Australian) and the US Governments combined, which is a pretty hard ask given I'm a paid-up political Labor Party member.

Bottom line, I think these above posts are a tad harsh about new gamers. And if you're 20 or under (generally speaking), you'll never have used a DOS machine.

But, I also sympathise with their posts as it's highly frustrating to *help* people when they put no effort into helping themselves.

Years ago in the SQ community, I used a modified version of Snover's 'Guidelines before posting for help' thread to stop the crap, which worked (somewhat). They stole it at the other SQ forum before too long. :)

Regards,
- Spike
User avatar
Spikey
Member
 
Posts: 254
Joined: 2003-2-04 @ 10:36
Location: South Australia

Re: Abandonware and Dosbox

Postby avatar_58 » 2007-3-20 @ 01:48

Hey Avatar, you need to calm down. I'm totally on the same page as you, I like the fact that the new Sierra collections allow more people to play them. But Vivendi pisses me off more than pretty much anything, even my (Australian) and the US Governments combined, which is a pretty hard ask given I'm a paid-up political Labor Party member.



I'm calm, no worries. I'm just rather passionate about what I believe in and I don't really like it when abandonware is lobbed together with piracy. As if people are saying those downloading unsold games are no better than someone who pirates a game that sits on the shelf today.

Bottom line, I think these above posts are a tad harsh about new gamers. And if you're 20 or under (generally speaking), you'll never have used a DOS machine.



I'm 21 and all my life I've used DOS machines. Wink For many years I preferred good old dos to windows. I've just learned to move on due to the wonderful progress that is DOSBox. However if you start chatting away about the good old days of Sierra Online and 8086 machines I'll be right there geeking it up with the best of them. Very Happy Don't mistake me for some CS kiddy, heh.

I do think a few people are rather closed minded around here when it comes to this though. People need to loosen up and stop making dos games a clique. We should welcome newbies no matter when they were born and whether or not that 20 year old diskette game they have is downloaded or not. Theres bigger things in life to worry about.
User avatar
avatar_58
Oldbie
 
Posts: 955
Joined: 2005-2-02 @ 02:11
Location: Canada

Re: Abandonware and Dosbox

Postby Spikey » 2007-3-20 @ 02:39

I guess the thing is, I'm not a regular (50-odd posts in 4 years ;) ). The communities I hang out in are Sierra-based, and sure, lots of my friends can use DOSBox. But that's through effort and self-teaching, not through a lifetime of DOS usage.

I definitely agree about DOS games cliques, and it's probably why I don't hang around this place. I don't think of video games as property- well, I do, but not with defunct companies like Sierra, where the creators are completely different to the owners.


On downloading games, I'll briefly reiterate. I don't think you can validate it by letting every moron who posts like Dominus illustrated, making it tough to help them (through lack of info) while admitting a download, but I also think it's wrong to turn away someone who has a valid tech help request but mentions a download somewhere in the post.

I guess like all matters, it's about balance.

And on VOGONS' disclaimer down the bottom about no abandonware and illegal material, I don't think allowing people to help downloaded game users would be inconsistent with this. Especially given the "zetafleet.dom will not be held responsible for users' posts." disclaimer.


But I personally take it on a case by case basis, as I've done for 5 years now.


On a final note, I agree with your last comment, Avatar. Much bigger things to worry about. I've never understood why video game sites allow "IP" holders so much damn power over them and try and satisfy their every whim- just get on with the job and move servers if you have to (note: I'm not talking about this forum).

- Spike
User avatar
Spikey
Member
 
Posts: 254
Joined: 2003-2-04 @ 10:36
Location: South Australia

Re: Abandonware and Dosbox

Postby Paratech » 2007-3-20 @ 04:45

Well I've been working with PCs since 1994, starting with DOS 5.0, and to be honest, I have a good number of DOS games, legal, on CD, but I am still somewhat new to DOS Box, and running those games in Windows XP.

So far people haven't accused me of pirating the games I've asked for help with, but I'd like to believe that just because I'm new to DOS Box and Windows XP doesn't mean I'm downloading DOS games. I try to buy whenever possible.

I have the Ultima collection, ditto with King's Quest, Leisure Suit Larry, and Police Quest, I've collected a large number of RPGs and Adventure games legally throughout the years I've owned a PC.

I was typically able to run DOS up until last September when I bought an upgrade to XP, but I've been hoping to learn more about DOS Box and to install some of those games,,,

So please don't generalise so much, there are people trying to install ancient games on XP who need a hand with getting them to run.

I'm not going to slam abandonware either, but as some members said, DOS BOX can't be connected to piracy in any ways no matter how immoral it might be to let software companies hold on to the rights of games for decades.

But please stop equating technical ability to run DOS Box to piracy, that isn't true...

:sealed:
Paratech
Newbie
 
Posts: 12
Joined: 2007-3-04 @ 04:02

Re: Abandonware and Dosbox

Postby DosFreak » 2007-3-20 @ 10:27

I do think a few people are rather closed minded around here when it comes to this though. People need to loosen up and stop making dos games a clique. We should welcome newbies no matter when they were born and whether or not that 20 year old diskette game they have is downloaded or not. Theres bigger things in life to worry about.



Err, no we shouldn't. VOGONS is for those who help themselves.

As for "There's bigger things in life to worry about", You can say that about anything when you want to claim that what people are complaining about is not worth complaining about. I spend my free time helping out people here and I do not want it littered with whiners/abandonware kiddies or the other cruft of the web. If your refering to the "newbies" who don't expect to be babysat then yes they are welcome. If your referring to the "newbies" who expect to be babysat then they can go **** themselves. Literally.
User avatar
DosFreak
l33t++
 
Posts: 10354
Joined: 2002-6-30 @ 16:35
Location: Your Head

Re: Abandonware and Dosbox

Postby avatar_58 » 2007-3-20 @ 13:48

DosFreak wrote:

Err, no we shouldn't. VOGONS is for those who help themselves



Thats funny, because I don't see any disclaimers. I can't seem to locate the rule that states "Please have at least some prior DOS experience" anywhere.

Quote:

I spend my free time helping out people here and I do not want it littered with whiners/abandonware kiddies or the other cruft of the web. If your refering to the "newbies" who don't expect to be babysat then yes they are welcome. If your referring to the "newbies" who expect to be babysat then they can go **** themselves. Literally.



So now you group whiners and abandonware "kiddies"? Whats with the hostility? Once again - most of the people on this forum have most likely downloaded many of their dos collection. Including the regulars. Unless your room looks like a museum chances are the ones who know so much about every game haven't paid for even half of them. So being hypocritical isn't going to make you look any better than those "kiddies".

You are welcome to prove me wrong by posting your gigantic wall of game boxes and discs, but chances are I have a very large point here. Abandonware serves it's purpose. If your quarrel is with the uninformed rude users who come here expecting people to bend over backwards for support then yes I agree - they can go **** themselves. I've seen quite a few posts that make you want to pull your hair out. However don't go generalizing and assuming they are all pirates or that all abandonware supporters are the same.
User avatar
avatar_58
Oldbie
 
Posts: 955
Joined: 2005-2-02 @ 02:11
Location: Canada

Re: Abandonware and Dosbox

Postby MiniMax » 2007-3-20 @ 15:42

Whatever....
DOSBox 0.73 ReadMe | DOSBox Wiki | DOSBox 60 seconds guide | How to ask questions
_________________
Lenovo M58p | Core 2 Quad Q8400 @ 2.66 GHz | Radeon R7 240 | LG HL-DT-ST DVDRAM GH40N | Win 10 Pro
User avatar
MiniMax
Moderator
 
Posts: 5128
Joined: 2004-1-18 @ 04:15
Location: Stockholm, Sweden, Europe, Earth Interests: Old games & young women

Re: Abandonware and Dosbox

Postby DosFreak » 2007-3-20 @ 16:06

Thats funny, because I don't see any disclaimers. I can't seem to locate the rule that states "Please have at least some prior DOS experience" anywhere.


No disclaimer. Just the way it's been since the beginning.


So now you group whiners and abandonware "kiddies"? Whats with the hostility? Once again - most of the people on this forum have most likely downloaded many of their dos collection. Including the regulars. Unless your room looks like a museum chances are the ones who know so much about every game haven't paid for even half of them. So being hypocritical isn't going to make you look any better than those "kiddies".


Abandonware kiddies in references to script kiddies. Basically noobs who don't know what they are doing and think they are "l33t" because they can run a program to hax0r a system or get something to work.

Sadly I cannot provide proof of my purchases because:

1. I don't keep game purchase receipts after 30 days.
2. I throw away the boxes and cases.
3. I make backups of all of my CD's and occasionally over the years my originals have gone bad.


You are welcome to prove me wrong by posting your gigantic wall of game boxes and discs, but chances are I have a very large point here. Abandonware serves it's purpose. If your quarrel is with the uninformed rude users who come here expecting people to bend over backwards for support then yes I agree - they can go **** themselves. I've seen quite a few posts that make you want to pull your hair out. However don't go generalizing and assuming they are all pirates or that all abandonware supporters are the same.


I never disuputed what you said earlier about "abandonware" serving a purpose. Calm down man, of course "abandonware" supporters are going to get a bad rep just like anything else the "man" doesn't like. No need to blow a fuse.

Sadly VOGONS has to take a certain stance due us having a higher profile than some "abandonware" site. It's the price we pay for the quality of service we provide and for associating with the best DOS game emulator ever created.



Grrr, keep on editing posts instead of quotes. That's what I get for digging into VPN/Cisco routing today...
User avatar
DosFreak
l33t++
 
Posts: 10354
Joined: 2002-6-30 @ 16:35
Location: Your Head

Re: Abandonware and Dosbox

Postby leileilol » 2007-3-20 @ 17:50

I'd like to take the time to quote what I said that I still hold it as a very valid point on why we don't do abandonwarez on this forum:

leileilol wrote:basically

games from your own own legal copies' media = okay, preferred and recommended

games ILLEGALLY OBTAINED FROM ABANDONWARE SITES, most possibly TAMPERED and "pre-fixed for XP" = BAD BAD FOR DOSBOX TECHNICAL SUPPORT

Get what i'm saying? Pure genuine game copies prevail.


If you don't get that, you're sad.
by the way, DOSBox is not for running Windows 9x
User avatar
leileilol
l33t++
 
Posts: 9775
Joined: 2006-12-16 @ 18:03

Re: Abandonware and Dosbox

Postby red_avatar » 2007-3-20 @ 19:03

Wow a lot of hostility in here!!

Anyway, my two cents:

Abandonware is good since it preserves the history of PC gaming
Abandonware can be bad for Dosbox because it means badly ripped versions and bad cracks causing errors that are not Dosbox's fault.

Abandonware is not legal most of the time but I know that most developers don't mind. It's the old publishers that do. Developers like their games to still be played after all - they take pride in that. Morally, as long as games are no longer sold, it's pretty clear that there's little problems with that. I personally buy as many old games as I can, but some are just impossible to get hold of.

About people coming here to help: there's a lot of people who never used Dos and expect Dosbox to be a kind of miracle product. There's those that really make an effort and there's those that better steer clear of Dosbox, but in the end, if they can't get it to work, it's 99% chance due to them not trying enough. Considering 98% of all Dos games now work fine in Dosbox (at least out of the 900 I tested and going by the games database) Dosbox users should need little help if they try hard. The correct term would be "Dos newbies", not "abandonware newbies" by the way.

So basically, I think you all are right in some way from what I read.

And avatar58, if you want i can send you my gigantic wall of game boxes and discs. Abandonware still serves its use of course, but just to let you know that it's well possible to buy a great deal of the classics people now download.
User avatar
red_avatar
Oldbie
 
Posts: 1053
Joined: 2004-4-12 @ 13:24

Re: Abandonware and Dosbox

Postby avatar_58 » 2007-3-20 @ 20:28

red_avatar wrote:Wow a lot of hostility in here!!


Why do people keep saying that? You are reading too deeply into my posts. Seriously, maybe if I use more emoticons or something? :sweatdrop: I'm not trying to start a war here, I'm just stating my opinion as honestly as I can. I'm sorry if it comes off as "hostile". :s-face:

Anyway, my two cents:

Abandonware is good since it preserves the history of PC gaming
Abandonware can be bad for Dosbox because it means badly ripped versions and bad cracks causing errors that are not Dosbox's fault.

Abandonware is not legal most of the time but I know that most developers don't mind. It's the old publishers that do. Developers like their games to still be played after all - they take pride in that. Morally, as long as games are no longer sold, it's pretty clear that there's little problems with that. I personally buy as many old games as I can, but some are just impossible to get hold of.

About people coming here to help: there's a lot of people who never used Dos and expect Dosbox to be a kind of miracle product. There's those that really make an effort and there's those that better steer clear of Dosbox, but in the end, if they can't get it to work, it's 99% chance due to them not trying enough. Considering 98% of all Dos games now work fine in Dosbox (at least out of the 900 I tested and going by the games database) Dosbox users should need little help if they try hard. The correct term would be "Dos newbies", not "abandonware newbies" by the way.

So basically, I think you all are right in some way from what I read.


You understand exactly what it is I say. No one is asking for dosbox's undying support for abandonware though, just to quit labeling any newbies as automatic "pirates". It's also quite rude to fluff them off as if they've done something wrong by not understand everything. Believe it or not but many people aren't intuitive enough to "RTFM" as they say. :oops: As sad as that is it's true for many people. In fact some people think going to the internet is the equivalent of doing it themselves and is somehow 'better' than reading the readme.

And avatar58, if you want i can send you my gigantic wall of game boxes and discs. Abandonware still serves its use of course, but just to let you know that it's well possible to buy a great deal of the classics people now download.


I don't doubt that. I know someone who owns well over 1000 old games and has the pictures to prove it. I have hundreds myself, unfortunately I only have the discs to prove it. Some are burnt in the manner Dosfreak described, because those damn floppies don't last. However I also have quite a few games which were obtained through 'other' means because they simply aren't available from their original developer/publisher. I'm not afraid to admit it, nor will I pretend it's legal.

One day I forsee the copyright law being re-written. Right now, if anyone is aware, the law for books carries over to games. 100 years. So basically in 2100 we can play the oringal games (assuming they aren't resold like VUgames so generously did) and it would be legal. Would you consider that any more moral than me just ignoring that technicality? I sure as hell don't, and listening to the original dev's opinions they don't either.

The best solution? Freeware. 3DRealms (Joe Seigler Mostly) releases games every few months to the public. Thats how you do it. That way you keep your old fans happy, and new fans can see what the fuss was about.
User avatar
avatar_58
Oldbie
 
Posts: 955
Joined: 2005-2-02 @ 02:11
Location: Canada

Re: Abandonware and Dosbox

Postby exofreeze » 2007-3-21 @ 00:25

leileilol - your such a 'dos gamer elitist' it's ridiculous.

When did you start trying to run dos games?

I'm positive that statistically speaking you are a 'newer dos gamer' then a lot of other people on these forums.

At what point did you decide that you were so experienced that everyone who came after you is simply a "new dos gamer" who isn't worthy of playing older games? Who isn't worthy of tech support on the boards?

Then you go back to quoting yourself and stating that anyone who doesn't agree is "just sad".

Your rhetoric sounds a lot like those 'abandonware kiddies' everyone is on about, only difference being your playing the straight-edge forum police.

In response to Avatar, I own original copies of 1,600+ games, mostly dos, although about %15 is w95 or newer. So yes, there are some people out there who actually have museums for game rooms. Although, Avatar is still right in that I have an external 500gb drive with backed up copies of every game I own, and some I never could find. Most of them were downloaded from abandonware sites, to simply save me the time of ripping them. Occasionally I find one of my downloaded versions is missing movies, speech, or some other feature - at which point I re-rip it myself and replace it in my master directory.

Point being - there are people out there with massive collections whom still rely on abandonware to fill out the blanks and provide piece-of-mind that I can still play all my old 5 1/4 floppy games. And I don't know if if little leileilol judges newbies by their post count, but if so you've got the wrong person - I don't post often simply because I don't need assistance often - so save your holier then though old school dos gamer bull for someone else.
User avatar
exofreeze
Member
 
Posts: 351
Joined: 2007-3-19 @ 17:55
Location: Dallas, TX

PreviousNext

Return to DOSBox Games/Apps

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 2 guests