HunterZ wrote:

No idea what "hidden mode" is, but ADC means "Analog-to-Digital Converter" which refers to the card's ability to record from or pass-through Mic, Line In, and/or CD inputs.

Damn so the Low and High Filter applies to whatever recording input you select...

I just did some more digging in the SBPRO folder and found a tool called SBP-SET.EXE which has a output filter switch. Just doing some recordings, this time with the Steam version of SQ4 because it has FM and speech 😀

Ok so I used the tool SBP-SET.EXE in the SBPRO folder and it game me options for setting the mixer and one option seems to turn the output filter ON or OFF:

SBP-SET.EXE command options

Boot message confirming the mixer and filter settings!

So I did a recording of the SQ4 intro because it has FM and speech. However I struggle to detect a difference 🙁 If you guys can hear anything of interest please let me know! I'm also wondering what the default setting for the filter is. I take it it's ON?

http://www.mediafire.com/?11tpxwf9wahzsdc

Monkey Island 2 recording: http://www.mediafire.com/?f8lnevabxdeqyzz

Yea I struggle to detect any difference. If anyone has more answers please let me know 🤣

Since I managed to fix up my Packard Bell Legend 316SX as a simple DOS gaming box for games with speed issues on fast computer and I have no other sound card with a discrete YMF262, I'll put my SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 into the 316SX.

Would there be any way to induce the same distortion of my OPTi 82C929A's YMF262 on the SoundBlaster Pro 2.0's YMF262? I like the extra distortion of the 82C929A's YMF262 which I can't seem to get on the SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 even with a software mixer.

You are definitely the "distortion man"... Can't help you here...

From what I can tell, I'd probably need to physically alter the SoundBlaster Pro 2.0's YMF262 audio amp since on my OPTi 82C929A, the YMF262's sound output is loud enough to exceed the bandwidth of the quad op-amp on the sound card used to amplify the YMF262's audio output. I believe the 82C929A has weaker resistors or none at all on the YAC512's outputs. I'd need to put together some schematics for each sound card's YMF262 audio amp.

And FYI, the distortion doesn't always result in good sound. I used to use my 82C929A for a little emulation on MAME v0.36 since that version can use the YM3812s or YMF262s on sound cards for games that have either sound chip on the original arcade boards. Zero Wing, which uses a YM3812, sounded nasty with the 82C929A's distortion. Other DOS games like the floppy disk edition of X-Wing have zero distortion(haven't tried any other arcade games that use a YM3812 or YMF262 on MAME with the 82C929A).

By the way, is there any way to make a SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 not sound like it's outputting downsampled digital sound?

I'm gonna go a little off-topic here: what specs does a computer need to have to run Zero Wing full speed in MAME v0.36?

Ace wrote:

By the way, is there any way to make a SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 not sound like it's outputting downsampled digital sound?

For DOS Games? Hmm I can't say I experienced this. The Pro 2.0 has a rather nice speech / digital sound output.

In my "Sound Card comparison - Digital Speech - DOS Game Wing Commander II" I tested a bunch of cards and ranked the SP Pro 2.0 second, just behind the AWE64 GOLD, but ahead of the ESS Audio Drive and SB 1.5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3Zj1sioBBk

A few post higher I also have recordings of the Space Quest 4 Introduction, which uses extensive digital speech and I was very happy with the quality. Maybe listen to those recordings and let me know what you think?

Now if you where happy to say good bye to FM and hello to General Midi I would recommend you an AWE64 GOLD for speech / digital sound + Roland Sound Canvas. Crystal clear digital speech / sound effects even over SPDIF if you want + excellent Roland Midi quality + no hanging notes bugs...

Now you could install a SB Pro 2.0 and AWE64 Gold in the same machine (SB Pro 2.0 for FM and AWE64 GOLD for speech / digital effects) but I'm not a huge fans of solutions like that although jumpering the SB Pro 2.0 to 240 / 10 / 0 will pretty much make it "disappear". FM sound will come out from both cards and you just mute FM on the AWE64 GOLD mixer.

PS: I'm still looking for differences between my recordings with the output filter ON vs. OFF. I am unable to hear any difference, but maybe others have better ears.

Maybe I should make another thread at a later stage?

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

In my "Sound Card comparison - Digital Speech - DOS Game Wing Commander II" I tested a bunch of cards and ranked the SP Pro 2.0 second, just behind the AWE64 GOLD, but ahead of the ESS Audio Drive and SB 1.5:

in your noisy soundcards thread it was the other way around?

I already have an AWE64 Value(still need a RAM module or some way to adapt a 72-pin SIMM slot to the sound card without having to buy the SIMMConn), so I'm set on that end.

I actually had problems in one of my computers combining the SoundBlaster AWE64 and SoundBlaster Pro 2.0. I got the SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 working perfectly by itself, but as soon as I mixed it with my SoundBlaster AWE64, I lost all audio on the SoundBlaster sound options in the floppy disk edition of X-Wing(that game gives me hell with many sound cards).

Not to mention, my AWE64 has a "stuck PCM" bug with the floppy disk edition of X-Wing, which you'll notice in 3 of my 4 videos of the floppy disk edition of X-Wing where I used the AWE64 with any of the SoundBlaster sound options, be it alone or combined with another sound card(my SoundBlaster 16 WavEffects also has the same bug). It seems to stop playing a sample of digital sound too soon and never finishes playing the sound byte unless I pause and unpause the game.

I don't know about you, but I find the floppy disk edition of X-Wing has pretty lousy digital sound on my SoundBlaster Pro 2.0. Even the Collector's CD-ROM edition has lower-quality sound effects on the SoundBlaster Pro 2.0. I'll record some samples of various digital sounds from both the floppy disk and Collector's CD-ROM editions of X-Wing played on the ISA sound cards I use most(OPTi 82C929A, HP AZT1008 with Aztech 2320 chipset, SoundBlaster Pro 2.0, ESS AudioDrive ES1868F, SoundBlaster AWE64 Value, SoundBlaster 16 WavEffects).

gerwin wrote:

in your noisy soundcards thread it was the other way around?

Yes it was! Different reviews looking at different things using different criteria and testing methodology...

Ace wrote:

I'll record some samples of various digital sounds from both the floppy disk and Collector's CD-ROM editions of X-Wing played on the ISA sound cards I use most(OPTi 82C929A, HP AZT1008 with Aztech 2320 chipset, SoundBlaster Pro 2.0, ESS AudioDrive ES1868F, SoundBlaster AWE64 Value, SoundBlaster 16 WavEffects).

Sounds good! Are you going to mute / disable FM to make it easier?

Of course! I'll mute X-Wing's music and just record the digital sound.

Say, from the recording of the Collector's CD-ROM edition of X-Wing using the OPTi 82C929A I uploaded to YouTube, just how distorted does the music sound like to your ears compared to a real SoundBlaster Pro 2.0?

That's the thing I don't have "FM tuned" ears it seems...

Part 3 is the OPTI right?

What I found is that that card is noisier than Part 11 (AWE32). Both cards have a level of hiss which you can hear but the OPTI has that typical "computer thinking noise".

But I struggle with the distortion bit. Might he because I don't know this game that well but seriously how is distortion a good thing? You might prefer it, but is it really authentic? The OPTI card is really an exotic sound card (compared to Creative), wouldn't you agree and I would think that Lucasarts used mostly Roland and Creative gear for their composing work...

IMO it doesn't get any more authentic than on a SB Pro 2.0 (although you might still prefer the OPTI). One could prefer the sound of the Creative OPL3 clone on a AWE64 over any other card, but that also wouldn't make it authentic. Authenticity isn't usually the "best" whatever "best" means. But it's the experience most people back in the day had (because most had a Sound Blaster card)

Regarding music, I prefer part 11 over part 3 any time of the day. I like Midi a lot. When there is the option of using Midi, why settle for FM.

Regarding sound / speech well it's close to be honest but I'm also leaning towards the AWE32 as well.

But mostly it's the "computer thinking" noise which puts me off...

I was using cheap cables up to Part 5 that are practically falling apart. The 82C929A is not a very noisy card at all. The noise comes from the use of cheap cables and possibly even the motherboard because in other computers, I hear no noise or very little noise.

I'll just recap what sound cards are used in all 19 parts for you:

1- ESS Maestro-2
2- SoundBlaster AWE64
3- OPTi 82C929A
4- SoundBlaster Live! 5.1
5- SoundBlaster AWE64
6- SoundBlaster AWE64
7- C-Media CMI8738
8- C-Media CMI8738 and OPTi 82C929A
9- SoundBlaster AWE64
10- SoundBlaster AWE64
11- SoundBlaster AWE64
12- OPTi 82C929A and SoundBlaster AWE64
13- SoundBlaster Live! 5.1
14- SoundBlaster Live! 5.1
15- SoundBlaster Vibra128
16- SoundBlaster Vibra128
17- SoundBlaster Live! 5.1
18- SoundBlaster Vibra128
19- Crystal CS4235

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

But I struggle with the distortion bit. Might he because I don't know this game that well but seriously how is distortion a good thing? You might prefer it, but is it really authentic?

It's a personal preference because the only experience I had with a sound card containing a discrete Yamaha YMF262 before getting the SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 was the OPTi 82C929A, and I always played my games with distorted FM Synthesis thinking it was the real thing. And this is why I prefer distorted FM Synthesis: I got so used to it I can't put it down. I even think X-Wing's music sounds like it's got something missing when played on a sound card without distorted FM Synthesis. Listen to Part 8, which has the closest sound to true OPL3 out of all my sound cards without a real YMF262. I feel there's a little something missing in the music unless it's got the distortion of the OPTi 82C929A.

However, what I really don't like from the SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 is the digital sound, like I told you before. It just sounds downsampled; not very pleasing to my ears.

And by the way, I can adjust the level of distortion using the 82C929A's mixer from very heavy distortion to none at all, just like a SoundBlaster Pro 2.0. I did notice weaker filtering on the 82C929A compared to the SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 in the FM Synthesis, however. Now, I like bass-heavy sound, but I just can't ditch the 82C929A for the SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 simply because of the damn digital sound.

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

When there is the option of using Midi, why settle for FM.

Because I've been around FM Synthesis almost non-stop for over 4 years playing games on the Sega Genesis and emulating arcade games that make heavy use of FM Synthesis. And sometimes, I really don't like the sound of the MIDI. I actually am not too fond of the AWE64's MIDI, in fact, at times it sounds like absolute crap. General MIDI in X-Wing using the AWE64 is just awful. AWE32 MIDI on the Collector's CD-ROM edition, on the other hand, sounds a fair bit better, but I can't figure out how to reduce the amount of reverb, which is the main reason why I'm not fond of the AWE64's MIDI: it's just too damn echoey and I was only able to reduce the amount of reverb for General MIDI, but not AWE32 MIDI. I prefer my AOpen AW32 Pro for General MIDI. It uses a Crystal wavetable which I like a fair bit, but I get a few garbage notes mixed in with the music on the left audio channel.

I need a Roland SoundCanvas wavetable, damn it!

Ok the nostalgic factor I totally understand now...

Hey did you listen to the Space Quest 4 recording I made a few posts up? It has digital speech and sounds just fine (to my ears).

I'd love to record X-Wing Collectors with AW64 GOLD for speech / FX and Roland Sound Canvas (IMO the pinnacle of mid 90s Retro gaming 🤣), but I don't have that game 🙁 Nothing on GOG or Steam either...

PS: Thinking about it I feel similar regarding Monkey Island 2 and Fate of Atlantis. 4 weeks of holiday work as a kid got me my first Sound Blaster. It was a MONO Sound Blaster though I don't know which model. It must have been a 1.5 I think...

Although Monkey Island 2 and Fate of Atlantis sound excellent on Roland, nothing but FM music brings back all those memories. Still I'm slowly getting used to Roland as I spend more time with the modules I have...

Unfortunately Lucasarts skimped on many sound effects on the Roland version. Only way around this is with ScummVM which has a Roland / Adlib mixed mode.

So yea first time I found emulation to offer features beyond what the real machines can do 🤣

Seems like right now, the only way to get your hands on the Collector's CD-ROM edition of X-Wing is to buy the original disc off eBay or some other auction site.

And no, I didn't listen to the Space Quest 4 recording. I'm in the middle of listening to your comparison of digital sound between the SoundBlaster 1.5, SoundBlaster Pro 2.0, ESS AudioDrive ES1868F and SoundBlaster AWE64 Gold. I'll be giving my opinion and any differences I spot while I listen.

PS: same for Wing Commander. Although I finished it on a 286 with PC speaker as a Kid and man nothing beats the laser sound on PC speaker. It's just so Raw 🤣

Still MT-32 is something totally different. The funeral score is nothing short of amazing. There is also a video of that on my channel...

Ace wrote:

I'm in the middle of listening to your comparison of digital sound between the SoundBlaster 1.5, SoundBlaster Pro 2.0, ESS AudioDrive ES1868F and SoundBlaster AWE64 Gold. I'll be giving my opinion and any differences I spot while I listen.

You can bump the thread for that video if you like: YouTube: Sound Card comparison - Digital Speech - DOS Game Wing Commander II

Will do. I'll go post my thoughts there.

A mate of mine has the Floppy version and I got my hands on it and doing some recordings. I am recording the whole intro sequence (Has music + speech) and you will likely know it inside out 🤣

One recording will be with my Sound Blaster Pro 2.0 (selecting Sound Blaster Pro and Compatibles in the INSTALL) the other one with my AWE64 GOLD + Roland Sound Canvas SC-55 (selecting General Midi with Sound Blaster).

Watch the space...

EDIT: Here we go!

It's the complete intro sequence and also the beginning of historical mission 2 (just like on your recordings). But no game play, I just shot the lasers a bit and that was it...

General Midi + AWE64 Gold: http://www.mediafire.com/?ajdic2kicgth9ds

Sound Blaster Pro 2.0 http://www.mediafire.com/?o8c619cp33sfi93

Certainly sounds downsampled on the SoundBlaster Pro 2.0. Maybe due to its extra clarity compared to the SoundBlaster AWE64(did you disable the SoundBlaster Pro 2.0's filtering, by any chance?)? For me, anyways, I think it has to do with the fact the SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 plays 8-bit digital sound whereas the SoundBlaster AWE64 can play both 8-bit and 16-bit digital sound. I believe due to the limitation of the SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 to 8-bit digital sound, the digital sound comes out very "tinny" compared to other sound cards. I believe the clones of the SoundBlaster Pro are 16-bit sound cards. I know my OPTi 82C929A is perfectly capable of playing 16-bit audio. I'm assuming on those sound cards, the bit rate is brought up from 8-bit to 16-bit, hence digital sound that doesn't sound downsampled. Pay close attention to the TIE sounds in the introduction. If you listen close enough, you will hear the SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 having a more "tinny" sound compared to the AWE64, which has higher-quality sound. Same goes for the speech, but it's not as noticeable. You will hear the speech sound more "tinny" on the SoundBlaster Pro 2.0.

Yea AWE64 Gold for speech / effects + Roland Sound Canvas FTW 🤣