indirect sound

Getting old Windows games working.

Re: indirect sound

Postby jonpol » 2018-7-11 @ 17:38

UCyborg wrote:
jonpol wrote:I was surprised to find that none of the characters showed up! Since I've never played it and only use it to test IndirectSound I'm reasonably sure that I haven't changed any of the game files (and it's GOG and not Steam so they shouldn't auto-update), which makes me wonder if something with Windows 10 or an NVIDIA driver has messed it up. :depressed: )

That's a famous bug that happens if you play the second game before the first. It happens because both games store graphics config in registry at HKLM\Software\(WOW6432Node)\Surreal\Riot Engine, in SettingsDX105. I changed the second game to use SettingsDX106 and both games to use HKCU instead of HKLM to avoid permission issues/invoking of registry virtualization.


Haha, that's funny, so I guess I messed it up when I tried the second game to fix the FX error messages and haven't tried the first one again until just now :blush: .

UCyborg wrote:
jonpol wrote:It seems like it would be interesting to play this part with a SoundBlaster. It's possible that Microsoft's software reverb implementation is poor, and just sounds like a delay, but the original intent and result was different. Have you tried that already?

I would try if I had one, but the last time I had a PC with a dedicated sound card was in the previous century. The only things I still have from that ancient PC is the Windows 95's manual and the manual of that PC's sound card (the front page says SF16-FMP 16-Bit Sound Board with FM Radio), which specs boast compatibility with Adlib, Sound Blaster 2.0 and Sound Blaster 16.

Watching some videos from the console versions does indicate that part might actually sound different, see this.

But if you do find the time to mess with The Suffering: TTB, particularly on the PC with the actual Sound Blaster (you still have it, right?), I would appreciate if you let me know whether that FX code actually does something useful or is it safe to skip it without compromising anything.


Yeah, I still have my X-Fi in my old XP machine that I keep around to test things for IndirectSound, and since I have The Suffering: TTB on GOG I should be able to transfer the installation files there and get it working without having to connect to the internet. No promises on timeframe but I will let you know what I find. (From your description it sounds like this happens within the first few minutes of the game and it should be easy for me to get to, right?)
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Re: indirect sound

Postby UCyborg » 2018-7-11 @ 18:12

jonpol wrote:From your description it sounds like this happens within the first few minutes of the game and it should be easy for me to get to, right?

Correct, as soon as you gain control (can move around) and one of the inmates opens the gate so you can escape, you'll come in a hallway where you'll see two inmates kicking the guard, that's where the difference should be heard, if the PC version isn't otherwise messed up in that regard.

And don't forget to turn on VSync, it's off by default in the second game, the unpatched version doesn't have the frame limiter and things get messed up when you go above 60 FPS. My guess is It should run at 60 Hz refresh rate if you set it to desktop's resolution and you've set your desktop to run at 60 Hz. While you can try patched version, maybe going with unpatched first might be a good idea just in case that EAX checkbox actually makes any difference.
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Re: indirect sound

Postby ZellSF » 2018-7-12 @ 16:06

jonpol wrote:
ZellSF wrote:Any chance you can look at Elite Starfighter and Thandor: The Invasion?

Elite Starfighter currently requires Creative ALchemy as there's audio distortion natively and with IndirectSound.

Thandor: The Invasion has audio distortion problems natively and with IndirectSound, Creative ALchemy seems to be missing sounds (but the sounds it does have doesn't sound distorted).


I don't have either of those, and it doesn't appear that they're available digitally.

Have you checked the dsound.log files when using IndirectSound to see if any errors or warnings are reported?

No errors or warnings in dsound.log.
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Re: indirect sound

Postby jonpol » 2018-7-12 @ 18:10

ZellSF wrote:
jonpol wrote:
ZellSF wrote:Any chance you can look at Elite Starfighter and Thandor: The Invasion?

Elite Starfighter currently requires Creative ALchemy as there's audio distortion natively and with IndirectSound.

Thandor: The Invasion has audio distortion problems natively and with IndirectSound, Creative ALchemy seems to be missing sounds (but the sounds it does have doesn't sound distorted).


I don't have either of those, and it doesn't appear that they're available digitally.

Have you checked the dsound.log files when using IndirectSound to see if any errors or warnings are reported?

No errors or warnings in dsound.log.


If you want you can email me at:

  • indirectsound@gmail.com

I can make a custom IndirectSound DLL with lots of debug output and send it to you. Looking at the resulting log files might reveal something unusual about the buffers causing the distortion. It's a long shot, but might be worth trying.
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Re: indirect sound

Postby lowenz » 2018-7-13 @ 22:01

Any news about LiteTech fix? (Blood 2, NOLF 2, etc.)
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Re: indirect sound

Postby jonpol » 2018-7-13 @ 22:12

lowenz wrote:Any news about LiteTech fix? (Blood 2, NOLF 2, etc.)


No, sorry, I haven't made any progress since last we talked about it :depressed: . I'm really stumped on what could cause the game itself to delay making DirectSound calls.

I was going to install NOLF 2 on my XP machine to see if I could get any insight by paying attention to how it behaves on real hardware, but I can't find my discs. I know they must be around somewhere since I just installed it not too long ago on my Win10 machine (as you know), but I don't know where I put them heh.
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Re: indirect sound

Postby lowenz » 2018-7-14 @ 07:23

You could try Blood 2 too (same problem) !

https://www.gog.com/game/blood_2_the_chosen_expansion

(And it lovely works with dgVoodoo2)
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Re: indirect sound

Postby UCyborg » 2018-7-26 @ 16:09

I've come to the conclusion that the FX code in The Suffering: Ties That Bind can be skipped without negative side effects. I tested IDirectSoundBuffer8::SetFX method and it works fine on modern Windows.

IndirectSound's website and ReadMe should mention dependency on Microsoft Visual C++ 2010 SP1 Redistributable Package (x86). Not everyone is informed that installing all vcredists is a good idea. Well, all of them between 2005 and 2017 with the exception of 2015 since 2017 is binary compatible with 2015.

There is another buggy game with which IndirectSound works well: Interstate '76.

jonpol wrote:I don't remember why (I think it was a thread on this site, actually), but I made a little demo program a few years ago that people could use to hear the differences between the different 3D software methods on different versions of Windows. If you're interested in trying it out it's still hiding on my website:

http://www.indirectsound.com/downloads/3dSoftware.exe


Do you still have it somewhere? I didn't download it the day you posted the link and then it disappeared.
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Re: indirect sound

Postby Blackbird88 » 2018-7-26 @ 19:06

If you check the folder itself there are two binaries of some tests
http://www.indirectsound.com/downloads/
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Re: indirect sound

Postby jonpol » 2018-7-27 @ 17:13

Blackbird88 wrote:If you check the folder itself there are two binaries of some tests
http://www.indirectsound.com/downloads/


Ah ha, you've cracked my heavy security! :blush: I sometimes use that folder for debug versions for people helping me try to fix bugs, so if anyone downloaded a debug version (that I've just removed) please don't distribute it. I'll have to use an even more secret directory in the future :sweatdrop:

UCyborg wrote:
jonpol wrote:I don't remember why (I think it was a thread on this site, actually), but I made a little demo program a few years ago that people could use to hear the differences between the different 3D software methods on different versions of Windows. If you're interested in trying it out it's still hiding on my website:

http://www.indirectsound.com/downloads/3dSoftware.exe


Do you still have it somewhere? I didn't download it the day you posted the link and then it disappeared.


Blackbird88 is correct, and I guess I remembered the name wrong. It is still there but with a different name than I had said:

http://www.indirectsound.com/downloads/Software3d.exe
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Re: indirect sound

Postby jonpol » 2018-7-27 @ 17:19

UCyborg wrote:
IndirectSound's website and ReadMe should mention dependency on Microsoft Visual C++ 2010 SP1 Redistributable Package (x86). Not everyone is informed that installing all vcredists is a good idea. Well, all of them between 2005 and 2017 with the exception of 2015 since 2017 is binary compatible with 2015.


When I first started working on IndirectSound I figured that I wouldn't have to worry about anything like this because everyone who would use it would necessarily already have DirectX installed. This is no longer true with the latest Windows versions, of course, so you're correct that I need to update things. I've been procrastinating a bit thinking that the new WASAPI version written using VC2017 would require updated instructions anyway, and I was hoping to avoid having to do it twice. I should probably at least add a short blurb, though, since a few people that I know about have run into this and so there are probably many more that I haven't heard from. Thanks for mentioning it!
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Re: indirect sound

Postby UCyborg » 2018-7-29 @ 16:03

I don't think anything changed in the recent years. Visual C++ Redistributable is separate from DirectX. When it comes to installing DirectX, it's really about DirectX extras from DirectX June 2010 Redistributable that aren't part of the OS. If the user only plays retro games, probably nothing has installed the latter components. Also, the presence of Visual C++ Redistributable is dependent on whether the user has anything else that needs it.

Some devs resort to static linking, which I think is ugly or just bundle it with an application. It's still better to have a shared copy loaded from system directories. I felt this was worth mentioning because some big fuss was made about those redistributables in the past.

I didn't think of trying to browse for the 3D sound test program. Indeed, it's not universally allowed. So the link just had a wrong name. Thanks!
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Re: indirect sound

Postby deton24 » 2018-8-06 @ 17:51

Hi folks.
I know that some of you here use dsoal.
It is not updated since 2011, but user IDrinkLava on YT shared with me version with ready HRTF tables to set, and probably something on OpenAL library side is updated.
Anyway, I give you all in one package with instruction. Result effect is really stunning.
https://yadi.sk/d/JfWiYFTT3ZebL6
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Re: indirect sound

Postby Osprey » 2018-8-15 @ 15:29

deton24 wrote:Hi folks.
I know that some of you here use dsoal.
It is not updated since 2011, but user IDrinkLava on YT shared with me version with ready HRTF tables to set, and probably something on OpenAL library side is updated.
Anyway, I give you all in one package with instruction. Result effect is really stunning.
https://yadi.sk/d/JfWiYFTT3ZebL6

That really is impressive. EAX seems to be working, since there's noticeably more reverb. The HRTF is working, too. I tested in System Shock 2 (the updated, NewDark version) by standing next to one of the air vents at the very start and looking around. The hissing sounds different when your back is turned to it than when facing it and it moves more naturally from one ear to the other when turning (i.e. it feels like it's coming from a location a few feet away and moving around you in a circle, rather than just going straight through your head from one ear to the other). It's also noticeable in the outdoor street area just up the nearby elevator. You hear the ambient noise, but it's not nearly as clear which earphone the sound is coming from. Overall, it's pretty impressive and the closest that I've heard in 15 years to how I remember these old games sounding with my old A3D cards. That's exciting. Thanks a lot for bringing it to our attention, deton24.
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Re: indirect sound

Postby Davros » 2018-8-21 @ 20:06

Osprey wrote:That really is impressive. EAX seems to be working, since there's noticeably more reverb.

theres more but does the amount change dependant on environment size?
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Re: indirect sound

Postby Osprey » 2018-8-23 @ 08:34

Davros wrote:theres more but does the amount change dependant on environment size?

It's hard for me to tell. The games that I'm testing have environments that sound different even when EAX is turned off.
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Re: indirect sound

Postby tf2 » 2018-8-30 @ 07:21

Hi guys!

I've just registered just to show you something.

https://www.reddit.com/r/stalker/commen ... _does_not/

Someone used DSOAL to bring back EAX 2.0 in stalker series.

And also in halo and...new vegas apparently

https://opencarnage.net/index.php?/topi ... s-alchemy/

https://community.pcgamingwiki.com/file ... 173-dsoal/

Can somebody test it and compare sound quality, please?

DSOAL vs Indirect sound vs alchemy software emulation vs real deal x-fi hardware support on win xp

Is it technically possible to use DSOAL with games like F.E.A.R, Doom 3 or Bioshock and bring back true eax?

I'm no programmer and no tech guy - I just love old games ;) super exited that maybe someday I gonna enjoy these awesome games on win 10 without creative cart with eax support sounding as great as on my x-fi extreme gamer back in 2006 ;)

have a nice day guys :)
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