X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Getting old software/games running on older hardware.

X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-05 @ 18:15

This post is often edited.. its work in progress, so its related to last posts in this thread.

Project history and machine goals:
=============================
- If you want to know some philosophy behind this build read this thread.
- If you want to see some progress problem solving and some discussion if it make sense and some etc - read thread from the start.
- If you care about specs details, look here HP z400 x58 collumn in first 2 tabs - tab switcher is in left down corner. // There is also some info about modern OSes on this machine
- Similar X58 machine - Agents007 thread
- because machine XP+ compatibility is same as any new machine virtuality 100%, Windows 98 is great too (Win98 DosBox excluded its working too, because pure DOS is working, i do not care too much now), im mainly interesting in post reports are discuss pure Dos 7.1 compatibility.
- PCI sound cards vs. Chipset compatibility sheet from Kamerat unfortunaly no too much new chipsets (not when if even older chipset are not working, its not good sing) and lots of magic abbreviations without legend
- i cant test it but Yamaha 72x would have very similar or same results
- Do you think that this post is long? Look at PC compatibility table sheet

HW Specs short summary:
========================
HP O.E.M - x58 board, Xeon X5660 - 6c/12threads, 8 GB (MB supports up 24 GB) ECC DDR3 1333 MHz, HDD - WD Raptor 160 GB(future - SSD), PS mouse and keyboards, DOS+W98 GPU, - ATI 800 XL GPU (GV-RX801256V) for DOS and Win98, for modern OSes there is Geforce 730 (placeholder) - its able to boot to Dos too - primary GPU slot selection option is in HP O.E.M Bios, AOPEN AW744L II Yamaha XG YMF744 YMF724 OPL3 PCI, - IDE DVD-RW connected throught cheap Sata to IDE dongle, because Sata DVD drivers haven audio header + CD-ROM DOS audio is working - with analog audio cable,no floppy, but i have floppy on board header, NIC - Broadcom Gigabit - 5721M.
On board LAN (Broadcom something not Win98 compatible) disabled and Audio (Realtek 265=HD) is enabled (it was disabled to majority of testing, but it has not influence on compatibility) for Windows 7 and newer OSes later.
Its such X58 machine, you could also add third PCI Graphics Card for DOS, if it would help, i cant use my second PCI slot is cover by second GPU cooler, case havent place for use of PCI extension cable.
Update: added PCI ATI MACH 64 2 MB for pure DOS testing, its working, but it not helped any from 30 not working game at the time, so i would say than PCI videocards for pure Dos are overrated. There were whole 3 games from 115, which had some issues with newer cards and one of them not working at least at one of modern cards without any Univbe etc magic.
- here is Linux "lspci -v" output with device - note because of debugging i used Geforce 210 card because of cooler shape (free slots) instead of Geforce 730 and ATI Mach 64 2 MB

Future HW plans to make machine better:
==================================
- Gigabyte (because of primary Videocard selection) X58 MB - with Bios profiles support and native IDE port and OCs support, DD3 triple channel, more slots (how i cant use PCI Video card for Dos only, because second GPU covers first PCI slot)
- better case and PSU - now im using HP z 400 cases - i need more more space for better cooling, i have ready Yessico Passively cooler 500W PSU - i like silence
- 12+ GB faster DDR3 ram
- Faster 115-130W TDP CPU for better Single and games performance in modern OSes, there is some discussion(this post and below) which CPU is best - Core i7/ Xeon, Xeon in normal desktop boards support, Xeon overclocking etc..
- CPU closed water cooler for more silence, now i have some HP O.E.M cooler, its not silent
- 240 GB SSD, i dont care about not working Trim, rLoew has some patches for it, but its probably cheaper to buy new SSD i would destroy it
- pure Dos only PCI videocard as S3 Virge
- test theAureal Votex 2 - if it has better or worse pure Dos compability than Yamahas Sound cards + drivers, good it that driver is running without EMS in Real mode (himem loaded, no EMS loaded) or Protected mode (no Himem, NO EMS loaded) are possible with sound. Info from ZanQuance: The AU8830 will only operate on newer machines if they still have LPC support on the chipset, looks like the X58 does. Details
I wound mind if someone would donate PCI S3 Virge or Aureal Vortex 2 :)
- alternative X800 XL cooler - with gigabyte one its get quite hot and there is not good possibility how to add some 80/92 mm fan

My Dos related config highlights:
=================================
- pure Windows 98SE 7.1 DOS on FAT32 parition shared with Windows 98 installation
- CPU HT disabled, all 6 cores enabled .. My machine not supports Bios profiles as others non O.E.M X58 do, so lazy to disaling and enabling core for different number of cores, for now im testing with all 6 cores enabled. I tried some problematic games with 1 core setting, but it doesnt help.
- for Yamaha 744 sound im using - alternative driver for TSR DMA ( details here , i tried Yamaha with Z97 board too, its not working, if it doesnt matters there links for different drivers)
- on board Sata controller in IDE mode, native IDE controller would be probably better
- Yamaha - setupds editing utility is working only in real (Himem loaded, EMS no loaded) mode or protection mode (no himmem, no ems)- config branch, with ems or noems branch it could be started, but it crash on save settings - its only annoying but - 1 more reboot, not block any games from playing..
- i bios chipset settings - PCI VGA palette snoop - enabled, PCI SERR# Generation - enabled - i dont sure about palette, SERR# was regarding of some info necesary for Creative sound cards, but im not sure about Yamahas?
- HimemX.exe is used instead of himem.sys to limit ammount of memory to 64 MB, to make windows 98 working (safe mode) you have to also patch io.sys with Rayers patch, i case of new WIndows 98 SE installation, do it as first reboot, memory error crash (if you have 512+ MB of RAM) and edit config to use HimemX.exe instead of Himem.sys + system.in .. after you would be able finish installation. You can check out my config file for this line. With HimemX.exe you could use Windows 98 up to 1100 MB (i dont remember exact values, its online) of ram, for even more ram you could buy rloew patches, he supporting up to 2 GB and has even some ramdrives for use 64 bit address space for all rest of unused memory..
- some info about smartdrive usage, i have it i my configuration ( LH C:\Windows\SMARTDRV.EXE /L /X /X -Disables write-behind caching for all drives; L - Prevents SMARTDrive from automatically loading into upper memory blocks (UMBs), even if there are UMBs available. You can use the /L switch if upper memory is enabled for use by programs. If you are using SMARTDrive's double-buffering feature and your system appears to be running slowly, try adding the /L switch to the SMARTDrive command in your AUTOEXEC.BAT file.), i never fully understand it, it could be source of problems . Smartdrive parameters description., some very detailed smartdrive article for how to tune it If is this info right on machine with 6MB+ of memory its using 2 MB + 2 MB as cache with is not cache size specified, or maybe only 2 MB, i dunno know how it counts.
- some info how to have all os on storage device

Win98 SE on same machine few notes:
=================================
- its not target of this thread, but few notes to make it working too
- besides of too much memory fix (above), if you board has only Sata, no Pata(im using IDE wrong wording for that, but im used to) you would need to fix disk transfer speed, you use IDE PCI/PCI-E controller.. or you need rLoew paid sata patch, even yours Sata controler is in IDE mode (it will work but without DMA - 3/4 MB/s transfers that is PITA), after patch installation you have to enaled DMA by the hand for every used drive - its known mistake to not do it and bitching about speed..
- there is some myth that Windows 98 PCI-E GPU should be in first or topper slot that second GPU for modern OSes, if you have board if primary GPU slot selection (Gigabyte and some HP O.E.Ms - maybe made by GB too i dunno, HP not doing anything HW by their own) has such feature, i proven it least with GB Z97 board, that PCI-E could be any PCI-E slot - if it is primary

Knowledge PIT - what could help make machine more compatible
==============================================================
- of course most important is knowledge of this forum members, i never was Dos settings expert
- DOS graphics cards vs games compabitility sheet - newest Nvidia tested - nVIDIA GeForce 6800GS; newest ATI (ATI Radeon DDR) - newest cards arent tested - but this could help, compatibility probably wouldnt be better with newer cards, the would be same or worse.
CPU Slowdowners / Speed limiters info:
CPU Tuning, Throttling - MSRED + CACHECTL, -8 // MSRED untest with X58,Cachectl c => reboot, regarding of info byFalcoSoft its not running under EMS386, so i would say that is not what we want.
MSRED additional info: 1, 2
SetMUL from gerwin - // L1 cache disable is working; L2 not - some segfault registry error. egarding of info byFalcoSoft its not running under EMS386, so i would say that is not what we want.. but L1 still looks like working, Setmul is working with EMS386 loaded, so MSRED is not mandatory.
- Speed difference is brutal - path_bench which is normally running- 3s, is running 893s and that is result between 386 DX/40 and slow 486.
- Some tool with better than nothing but some scalability would be great.
- Throttle - not working unsupported chipset message
- SlowDOS - its at the bottom of Throttle page - line above - its working at least with benchmarks with default value internal - 12, i get benchmark which is normally running - 3s to 27s. So this could probably scale about CPU speed.. but question is if there are not some conflicts. I fixed with it too fast Battle Arena Toshinden.
- What is UMBPCI - Falcosoft: For configurations that do not require EMM386 for SB emulation, using UMBPCI instead of EMM386 can be a much more compatible setting. It basically makes the same as your EMM386 NOEMS config so you can use upper memory blocks (that means more available conventional memory for programs) but it does not switch the CPU into protected /V86 mode.
- How EMS386 works: EMM386 switch your CPU into protected/V86 mode (it's true even for the configuration with the NOEMS parameter). In protected/V86 mode no user programs/games can use privileged instructions anymore. That's why you get 'unrecoverable privileged operation error' messages and that's why setupds freezes on you. Programs that require direct low level hardware access can not work when EMM386 is loaded. thanks Falcosoft for explanation
- "All the programs that use their own 32-bit DOS extender (DOS4GW, DOS/32A etc.) do not require EMM386 per definition. It's true for Doom, Quake, Duke Nukem 3D, Blood, and all the games that use the Build engine, also Warcraft II etc. For these games using EMM386 causes no harm at the best case. But with EMM386 loaded you cannot use low level optimization tools such as FastVid, MTRRLFBE, MSRED, CACHECTL etc. And e.g. for playing Build games in high resolution modes enabling LFB write combining is a must even on the most modern[url=viewtopic.php?f=61&t=59266]systems.[/url]" thx FalcoSoft for explanation
- If games work with your EMM386 NOEMS config then the answer is that they definitely do not need EMS, just more free conventional memory (thx Falcosoft)


Knowledge PIT => wisdom -solutions / discoveries:
===========================================
- Runtime error 200 => too fast CPU - Setmul L1D - fix it //Setmul L1E to make cpu again fast..
- Dos games need usually set sound setting through some ulity - typical names are - setup.exe, setsound.exe, but also install.exe! (name could be missleading) or imuse.exe
- Most of game problems are related to sound, so there are not really too much problem with too fast CPU and platform itself (except its sound possibility limitations)
- For lots of games which are not working with sound - is not important if sound card is set in setup, but if or not is sound driver loaded or not.. Without sound or with PC speaker often are games working. So its good to have some Start branch without Sound driver loaded to test it.
- some evil games, saving their configurations in binary data formats, so if setup not working, or setup is possible only during installation you are f*cked
- Geforce 730 (Nvidia Kepler same as G9xx) has broken EGA color palette
- all problematic games were tested with PCI ATI MACH 64 2 MB
- how to exit old games - ESC,ALT+X,CRTL+X,ALT+Q,CTRL+Q,ESC+CRTL,CRTL+Pause.. if there others tell me..
- Most compatible settings for games is EMS, so you someone would tell you that you almost dont need etc, its not true
- There not really too much games which are running to fast in my tested set its < 20% and was able to fix for now all of them with Setmul or SlowDos.
- When game starts and could go to gameplay and dont have any stability issue or occasional crashes - games behavior is always some - thanks good
- too get some Dos Memory usage info you can use these commands: MEM /C/P and MEM /D/P - you can saved result to file by this command: MEM /C /P > MEMCP.txt
- how branched Autoexec.bat and config.sys - Working? - First is executed Config.sys, there are defined menu with branches, in config are also defined modules for individual branched, which could be reused. These submodules - could have config.sys and autoexec.bat parts with same name and both are executed.. In autoexec.bat are config.sys branches initialized by this line GOTO %CONFIG% For make config boot menu visible when you using pure Dos 7.1 on one parition with Windows 98, you also need to edit msdos.sys - its just text file - more info here.
- because is autoexec and config quite long you will not see output all command on screen at the end and with fast machines, you will not see processing on the fly.. but you cant use Pause key to stop it.. unfortunatly there some commands, which will not recover from this pause - for me its ctmouse driver - only solution is reboot and try to hit pause after or before such command processing.. Afaik Pause command in autoexec.bat not working during boot, if you want it to use you need some special util to load at the start of autoexec.bat
- Why care about JEMM instead of EMS? Short version is better. Long verions by Falcosoft: JEMM386 is more advanced than EMM386 in many aspects. Emulating some of the privileged instructions can be a very handy feature since this way some of your programs that refused to work because of privileged instruction errors can work (including some of the above mentioned low level optimization utilities). Also it uses less memory so in best case you will have more free conventional memory than with EMM386. EMM386 has no such good compatibility that you should be afraid of replacing it :) Personally I have not found situations where JEMM386 caused more problems than EMM386. JEMM386 can fix some of EMM386 problems but not all. gdjacobs: SOFTMPU being incompatible with JEMM

Common repeating problem of not working games:
===========================================
a) EMS error during game start - EMS386 - Unrecoverable privileged operation error or Was detected EMS error at address XX.. i never got that EMS error, after game started, if is starting.
b) Black screens - no error, often soft reboot is working, i never met situation when i would heard music and sound + have black screen, it could be graphics card related.
c) Audio device during game start - sound card not find by game + some old games without any setup utility with build in sound card autodetection, also some games start only when are set to no sound or sound driver is not in memory - otherwise dont start, freeze during start / in menu or reboot computer
d) Audio not working in game - game start, its set to use Sound card / or auto detect it, game starts but no sound or pc speaker sound.
e) DOS4GW error 2000 or 2001 - 0Dh problems
f) games which are using dpmi*.ovl - Jazz Jackrabit 1 and Xatax not working, same error AUX Loader error 25: cannot initializ, these games not even starting with no sound.. sound card is still detected and i got this error.. its stupid implementation.
d) General failure reading drive D.. together with "Your program caused a divide overflow error" during game start. - I discovered, that was EMS problem, without EMS start memory range conflict - its working.

My config files:
==================
- branched config - 9 Dos configuration branches, 3 most important for you:
a) NOEMS (HimemX (or burnmem) + EMM386.EXE noems),
b) EMS(HimemX (or burnmem) + emm386.exe RAM),
c) Protection mode (HimemX loaded, no EMS loaded) , no sound because Yamaha TSR - DMA driver requiring EMS/NOEMS)
d) First 2 are Windows 98 boot and Windows 98 safe mode boot, last 4 are debugs for testing games with / without Sound / CD-ROM/ Smart-Drive/ driver loaded and two with SB IRQ 7 - because it matters.
- im using doskey 2.8 - i have that is not source of some incompatibility
- there is mouse driver and CD ROM driver loaded
- for now no DOS4GW extender fix, not slowdown utilities, now UNIVBE etc.. - this has to ve discovered and checked, i dont know how about these topics
- used drivers+utils- Yamaha 744 + mouse + cd-rom + some free utilities, SB !Live / Audigy drivers are as bonus, when you uncomment Creative lines in my autoexec.bat and commnect that for yamaha - you could use them (if you have compatible chipset (up to I865) or for testing)
- if you want to use my config files, you would need (or just REM Them) some utils which i dont included, because i not sure about licenses - Doskey,HimemX,File Wizzard.. there aslo used some utils like SMARTDRV.EXE, EMM386.EXE and MSCDEX.exe - where is expected C:\Windows - Win98 installation directory.
- Stable - Old version without config "error", some antivirs could have problem with *.bat
- My autoexec.bat - stable // If you want to use it, you need also i think fixed io.sys to not load WIndows 98 automatically, if you have Windows 98 installed too..
- My config.sys - stable
* All stable config files using bad and missleading names for branches - Protected mode is actually Realmode (Himem loaded, EMS not) thx Falcosoft for correction
- new experimental config files - so much better funcionality, proper branch names, better comments, but there is some error - which probably has not effect on function, it depends on which branch is used is repported on different line, it point to include of my common block, but i dont know - help is welcome..
- if you prefer something simple and dont mind if some your games will not just work without trying to press F8 at start of Dos loading:), you can use these config files from Dr_St(ems branch only).

For now few(= a lot) questions / todo:
1) Could someone with Yamaha 744 and older platform retest problematic games and say if problem are sound card related or MB+CPU platform related?
2) Could i just copy DOS4WG from one game to other, its universal? What is newest version? It seems to working, but i actually fixed only 1 game from 100+ with it, same as Dos32a, its working same as with older version.. fixed Dungeon master 2 games + Syndicate start warning.
3) General midi is not working in pure DOS - setup is able to detect it - play sample without error - but no sound from speakers. SB and Adlib music is playing fine. Im curios if Agent had same problem? Has means that General midi for Yamaha 744 - means only usage of external device, mini is not inbuild as in case of SB Audigy and !Live?
4) Slowdown utilities and their settings - i have setmul and slowdos working, but i wouldnt mind something with more features.
5) I will try DOS/32 extender, any hints? It look like that some DOS4GW games has start problems. I never used it, its fix per game or global? Need i other exe files in package or just dos32a.exe? Its dos32a (game.exe) right usage? It run the games, but i didnt discover any differences..
6) Some Vesa setting to improve compability, some games just give me black screens, could be problem there? I never understood any Dos Vesa tuning utilities. After my testing with ATI MACH 64 PCI, there is not game with would not work on at least on from Geforce 730 / or ATI x800 - actually only 4,5 games (Warcraft II, Dark Forces,CastleVania, Prehistoric2) for more 100+ games tested has such issues. Update: At least big part of blackscreens were due EMS memory conflict.
7) Autoexec and Config tuning for better compatibility - i never was good with that, check it pleas.
8) EMS setting to proper load sound driver in EMS mode - in need these parameters, could someone explain them, or tune them for me:
DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\EMM386.EXE 16384 D=64 FRAME=E000 /I=B000-B7FF RAM , only DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\EMM386.EXE RAM wasnt enough im trying to use 64MB of RAM. When is loading im getting warning: Option ROM or RAM detected within page frame, but without it Yamaha sound driver is not loaded.. I needed it for Creative drive on same machine to.
I also discovered when i tried to make EMS not Sound driver config branch, than without these parameters i have only 530 KB of free memory, what is not sufficient to run lots of games, with it i have 580/590KB , so this line is important even for other thing. EMS syntax info- i dont fully understand it.
/D - means this: Specifies how many kilobytes of memory should be reserved for buffered direct memory access (DMA). Discounting floppy-disk DMA, this value should reflect the largest DMA transfer that will occur while EMM386 is active. Valid values for nnn are in the range 16 through 256. The default value is 16. Its 64KB optimal for my setup?
/Frame -Specifies the page-frame segment base directly. To specify a specific segment-base address for the page frame, use the frame switch and specify the address you want
/i - Specifies a range of segment addresses to be used (included) for an EMS page or for UMBs. Valid values for mmmm and nnnn are in the range A000h through FFFFh and are rounded down to the nearest 4-kilobyte boundary. The x switch takes precedence over the i switch if the two ranges overlap.
These explanations really dont helps me to really undestand, what values are good.
Update: I now im sure that this warning is sub- optimal, i have new EMS settings without warning which could make previously not working games working.. but is not silver bullet, some previously working games are not working and i have much less conventional memory, new line:
DEVICEHIGH=C:\WINDOWS\EMM386.EXE I=B400-B7FF NOTR I=CA00-CBFF RAM HIGHSCAN VERBOSE
Im still working on it, any hint is welcome. Thread about my EMS setings details.
9) Im looking for some testing utilities to figure out where are compatibility problems.. I know lots of utilies for windows, but almost nothing for Dos, i tried HWinfo, i never managed it to get working on this machine.
11) Burnmem (download thx to PARUS) instead of HimemX? Would it be better, more compatible? Update: Tested seems to work the same.. Its not better or worse with compatibility, afaik.. I never tested it with Windows 98, maybe you could save time with io.sys patching - needed for HimemX.
12) Only other Sound Card, which make sense to try on X58 machine is Aureal Vortex 2, im right? ESS 1938 (Solo-1) is not working with anything newer than i865, its true?
13) Is there some good Dos CD image mounter? I hate juggle with CD roms and big boxes, i have plenty of space on FAT32 partitions for images. I would like to have working, physical and virtual cd at once.. i saw that some utils probably working as replacement of physical CD drive, that is not what i like..
14) What is default SB IRQ 5 or 7? Could be Yamaha 744 se to IRQ7 for some for now incompatible games? => Update - Dosbox is using IRQ7, i found few games -5 of 100 of something like that were is audio working only with IRQ - mostly older games, it did not tested all in reverse - i dont know which games are working only with IRQ5. I not sure, but i still think that some game has IRQ5 as default.
15) Gta 1 dos - High res - give me unsupported video chip message - its working, but it could be problem with other games - its possible use some Vesa enchancer to bypass it?
16) Its possible to log whole autoexec+ config boot sequence output to file?
17) Tune config files for more conventional memory - i placed everywhere LH and DeviceHigh - afaik it should be better, but i dont understand any fine memory tuning, have 580-590 KB free is enough, it make some compatibility problems?
19) Its possible to create some batch to test if is SB on IRQ 5 or 7? Because some games working with 5 some 7, so would be great to create start script, which would be say you.. hey sorry you have to reboot with right IRQ setting.
20) I have some issue with File Wizzard is not probably machine related, i first cmd command after reboot is simply ignored, details here. If we fix it, i would a bit speed up testing..
21) I have older CuteMouse - 1.9.1 make sense to upgrade it? Would be more compatible to run mouse in serial mouse mode? I have PS2 Logitech mouse.
22) Test JEMM386 instead of EMM386 - we just started
23) Make HWinfo running in my machine, it has 2011 dos port, but im getting not enough memory or EMS complaints etc.. if im always kicked out to DOS without reboot screen.. Is there solution or machine is just too new?
24) Will my Broadcom 5721M Network card work with Dos?
25) Are dos long file names utilities compatibility safe?

Dos compatibility - Work in progress:
======================================
Disclaimer: For modern big games like Warcraft II / NFS / Stonekeep, im lazy to juggle with CDs, so im using no cd "enhanced" versions, i hope that is not against rules? or deGoged Gog versions. My Gog games list of someone doubt about my games ownership i made it public, but my main collection is on Steam, lots of old games i have from magazines covers, im not box guy - i only want Quake 3 steel book, Daggerfall, Dungeon Master 1 and few others.
Games are usually not patched, installed once from floppies or cds, from era before internet as just copied - so there could be some old configs, but patches etc..

Games which are working (include sound, if is sound and music, is game has it dosnt working, its not listed):
================================================================================================
- with EMS or NOEMS boot branch (im brackets after game name in list bellow is used mode) - configs and drivers are above. by EMS i mean (Himem loded, EMS enabled), by NOEMS (Himem loaded, EMM loaded with NOEMS - EMS memory disabled)
- quick test just test if game and sound are running, start game and play for minute, i cant guarantee, that game will not freeze later
- with game has only PC speaker sound and its working - its logically listed too
- with game supports SB Pro, no Adlib fallback is tested, is far i understand Sound cards, SB Pro is superior, for now Adlib is not tested..
- if i get crash and i will retest game more deeply and if crash will appear once more i will remove game from this category
- no glitches policy

Working games list:
  1. Golden Axe(ems)
  2. Doom II(ems),
  3. Quake(ems),
  4. Blood(ems+NOEMS) - discovered that if is some audio cd inserted before game loads, i getting freeze on title screen, i dont know if this happens on other machines..
  5. Duke3D(ems),
  6. Dungeon Master I(ems),
  7. Ultima 0,
  8. Albion (ems),
  9. Raptor(ems),
  10. Settlers 2,
  11. Warcraft I,
  12. Wizardry 1,
  13. Jagged Alliance I,
  14. Z(demo,SVGA is working),
  15. Mortal Kombat III,
  16. Perverse Doom (ems,Doom I reskin),
  17. Doom1(ems),
  18. Mortal Kombat II,
  19. Might and Magic V,
  20. Fable - Telstar 96,
  21. Caesar II (ems),
  22. TeenAgent - polish game
  23. Dark Sun: Wake.. (ems),
  24. Street Fighter II (awful port),
  25. Castlevania-1990 (EMS, working with ATI, Nvidia bad color, SETMUL with L1D has to be used),
  26. Wacky Wheels,
  27. Need for speed 1(EMS, i need to find right version, some keyboard arrows problem, so no DOS audio),
  28. Descent I(ems),
  29. Redneck Rampage(ems),
  30. Wolf3D(EMS only freeze on quit),
  31. Rise of the Triad (EMS only freeze on quit), Body Blows (ems,Setmul L1D required),
  32. TES: Daggefall (version ems,1.07.213, if you using z.cfg for no CD-set Cheatmode to 0, otherwise is game way to fast),
  33. Heretic(ems),
  34. GTA Dos (NOEMS, EMS is freezing on title screen, SVGA mode - give me unsupported SVGA chip message but its working),
  35. CDman (NOEMS, with setmul L1D),
  36. Destruction Derby I (ems),
  37. Ducktales, Abuse (ems, setup.exe is freezing you have edit sound config file manually with info from ini file),
  38. EarthWormJim(ems),
  39. Gods (ems),
  40. Arkanoid (ems, setmul l1d needed),
  41. Theme Hospital (ems),
  42. Battle Arena Toshinden(ems, slowdos /d3 with 640x400(set it in arena), without slowdos is unplayable fast, you could tune the value, for me it give me 40 FPS),
  43. Strife(ems),
  44. Duke Nukem1(ems),
  45. Lost Vikings (ems),
  46. Battlechest (ems,need setmul l1d),
  47. Anvil of Dawn (ems),
  48. Grand Prix Circuit (ems),
  49. Grand Prix - The Cycles (ems),
  50. Indycar (ems),
  51. Grand Prix 2 (ems),
  52. Prehistorik (ems),
  53. Street Rod 2(ems),
  54. Street Rod 1(ems),
  55. Center Court Tenis (ems),
  56. Warlords (ems),
  57. Terminal Velocity (ems),
  58. Simcity 1 (NOEMS),
  59. Winter Games (ems,needs setmul l1d),
  60. Summer Games (ems,needs setmul l1d),
  61. Command and Conquer 1 (ems),
  62. Lotus III (ems, you have select SC inside game with SB its working),
  63. Primal Rage(ems), Ski or Die (ems),
  64. SW:Dark Forces(ems, working with ATI x800,not working with Geforce 730),
  65. Simon the Sorcerer 2 (NOEMS+EMS),
  66. Steel Panthers(ems),
  67. Simcity 2000 (NOEMS+ems,setup not working on ATI, with Nvidia has glitches, but there is cfg or you could configure game through Dosbox),
  68. Carmageddon (ems),
  69. Magic Carpet (ems, with slowdos and value around /d15 its working),
  70. Double Dragon 3 (ems, SB IRQ7 has to be set, with IRQ 5 SB not found),
  71. Lemmings (ems needs setmul l1d slow down to play music),
  72. Hexen I (ems, if you have problem with bad brightness / gamma press F11),
  73. Syndicate (NOEMS - music is working with IRQ5, but sound+music only with IRQ7, Dosbox is behaves same),
  74. Blake Stone (Ems - working only with IRQ otherwise map loading freeze),
  75. Wizzardry 7(ems - needs setmul l1d - otherwise there in RUntime error, it needs to be installed in very short path, because string for saves are very short
  76. Full throttle (EMS) - i had some issues with demo - i made by had disc cd version its huge and its working, i only wonder if its possible to turn on subtitles?
  77. X-Com Enemy unknown - EMS, i have issues with some versions - only music, so i did deGogation, its working fine
  78. Heroes of Might and Magic I - EMS
  79. Kyrandia2 (NOEMS) - when i try ems - i got reboot, working with IRQ5 and 7
  80. Nhl 95 (ems) - SB IRQ5, not slowdown utility needed
  81. Nhl 97 (ems) - working with Nvidia too
  82. Warcraft II demo full (ems) - I discovered it by accident is working when Geforce 730 is used, but not with ATI x800 (blackscreen and back to Dos), working with ATI MAch 64 2 MB. Even at slowest speed - keyboard map moved is too fast (i would need patch or slowdown utility like slowdos). Technical Sound card is fine, platform is fine, its video chip problem.. Tried setmul l1d, even not maximal speed, is key scrolling in smallest map to slow, so you have to use slowdos - optimal value is arround /d10.
  83. Kyrandia 1 (ems) - i tried with sound, no sound, sound driver - everytime hang on taking advantage of memory, i did some ems386 tuning, add min=4096 and scanhigh and buffers=>buffershigh and files=>fileshigh and it helped, or maybe i only managed get few more free kilobytes of conventional memory free..
  84. Epic pinball (ems), SB IRQ5
  85. Dungeon Keeper Gold (ems+NOEMS, SB IRQ5) - now i can finally slap imps its highly enlightening..
  86. Descent II (ems) - arrow keys are too sensitive without slowdown, for 320x200 is slowdos /d2 good, for 640x400 you need lesser value - 1 or 1.5 but minimal step you delay is value is 0.05 so there is not problem.
  87. Scorched earth (NOEMS)
  88. Terminator: Skynet or Demo (EMS+NOEMS) - IRQ5
  89. Prince 1 (ems)
  90. The incredible machine 1
  91. Wolfenstein - The spear of destiny
  92. Lion King (ems)
  93. WIng Commander 2 (ems) -its working with new EMS line without memory conflict warning, setmul l1d or other slowdown program needed
  94. NHL93 (required ems) -its working with new EMS line without memory conflict warning, not setmul l1d needed
  95. Space hulk (reg ems) with new ems settings,
  96. TES Arena (req ems) - a.exe is no sound start, for start with sound you will neeed a.bat - (@A -sa:220 -si:7 -sd:1 -ma:220 -mq:5 -md:1 -ssbdig.adv -msbfm.adv) - i dont understand what are mq:7 a md:1 parameters, it would be somethere in manual probably.. but music and sounds are working (with new ems settings), so i dont care.
  97. Transport Tyccon Deluxe (ems)
  98. Terminator - Future shock (ems)
  99. System shock (ems) - i used Gog floppy version (i dont wanted to use cd and save space), its working out of box without ingame digital sound, only music, i would like to edit sound settings, but when is start install.exe there are some placeholders except all characters is same in all versions of Dosbox which i have tried, i tried luck and find right value in cyb.cfg for FX - digi_card 1
  100. Master of Orion 2 (ems)
  101. Stonekeep (ems)
  102. Ugh (ems)
  103. Dynablaster (ems+NOEMS) - with Geforce - freeze during start, with ATIs i get right picture, with new memory settins its working fine
  104. Dune I - with new memory setting its working fine, im using smaller no speech, no cd version
  105. The incredible Machine 2
  106. Sam & Max demo (ems) - i have only demo..
  107. Ultima Underworld I (req ems) - with new memory setting game is working
  108. Ultima Underworld II (req ems) - with new memory setting game is working,
  109. F29 Retaliator (ems) - music is from sound card, sounds form pc speaker, Dosbox behaves same.. Tell me if it is wrong, i know that is quite liked game, but i never liked it.

Games which are not working for now:
================================
- Im retesting problematic titles in DosBox, if game installation was retested in Dosbox(2015-1-3 ykhwong's build - i know its a bit broken) and vanilla Dosbox, Dosbox-X, Gulikoza Dosbox 2011 + Dosbox ECE, - SB is IRQ5 too for transfer of games and testing 1on1, is in // section
- for some i added info how much of error conventional memory is needed to play the game (its from game setup info or game not enough memory starting message), what means EMS, NOEMS and XMS could be misleading.. by EMS i mean (Himem loded, EMS enabled), by NOEMS (Himem loaded, EMM NOEMS EMM loaded, EMS mode disabled), XMS = himem loaded, no emm load aka Real mode.

Not working games for now- any hints welcome:
  1. Dune II (v.1.07) (ems,602 KB)- It has problem with SB Pro enabled when i selected house and nothing happens when is enabled extended memory mod, music is still playing, when in setup was enabled use of expanded memory.. when expanded memory is disabled game with SB sound is running - music - ok, some sounds ok, but no units speech sounds, i tested it with 610 KB free. I managed to get it working at least with Adlib (both setup memory options are working), no speech on Adlib i thing that is hardware limitation. Setmul l1d doesnt needed, irq 5/7 too. Kamerat with Asus P5B-Deluxe, C2D and Y744 reported same problems, same as someone with ASUS TX97-XE..// Dosbox:Ok
  2. Dungeon Master II patched and new audio drivers(ems) - i managed to get working demo (with replacing DOS4GW with new version), but full game has after logo some video and before it i get black screen, its using IBMIOP.exe . WIth Nvidia no even logo, with Realmode (no sound drive) or EMS - no loaded sound driver, i got error message instead of intro, but game is running (without sound). Problem is probably intro sequence - yeah i was right when you move intro files away its working with sound, they videosequences really lackluster (only intro and outro) - intro has 15 secs, so its not compatible, but with help of youtube you can get full experience.. Intro / game is executed by some special ibmiop.exe utility - maybe is there some replacement, better version? // DosBox:OK
  3. Ultima VIII (NOEMS+EMS)- with sound enabled cmd line freeze (after ~10 set its back) - Error message: CPRPOMEM.C 1559 Program halted by code., no sound driver loaded boot - its running. You have select install to save config settings. No Adlib support. // Dosbox: OK
  4. Wing Commander: Armada (EMS required?) - it doesnt start, i got EMS driver is no VCPI complaint. message in ems mode, i tried min=4096 in EMS line, doesnt help, i dunno where is problem, in real mode - get issuficient dos memory available message (only 504 KB of conventional memory, 256 MB extended) In EMM NOEMS - im getting Protected mod driver not responding to EMS function calls. Make sure than EMS using RAM parameter. In realmode (Himem loaded, EMM not - i get insufficient DOS memory available..) here i have (517 KB conv. + 260 MB of free), Protected mode same message (in have 546 KB conv. and 3400 Kb free mem..)// Dosbox:ok (with EMS=false in dosbox.conf)
  5. Crusader: no Remorse v1.01 (NOEMS /EMS) - just soft reboot - when sound driver is loaded, no sound driver - setup is running, games is running with no sound. //DOSbox:ok
  6. Darklands v 483.07 (EMS mod required, 576 KB)- with new memory setting i could get ingames, music is playing, but after some loading events (like combat) i get black screen. Hmm even in mode without sound driver with PC speaker sound, i still get every time that black screen problem - it could be graphics card related.. 620 KB of convMem should be good for everything.. //Dosbox: ok
  7. Fallout 1 (v1.1 Dos patch + some additional files (ems+NOEMS)- Some registry error on loading screen, there is some sound setting in cfg files, but i dont understand values as -1 so maybe its only problem of settings, setmul not help, except show error message DOS4GW - error 2001 - ODh - general protection fault, IRQ7 is not solution // In Dosbox is working
  8. Xatax (ems), there is also sharware version for testing - require Setmul L1d or runtime error 200, even them, working with PC speaker only, SB Pro found, game is unable to load with it enabled - AUX, cannot initialize .. error 25 // Dosbox: Ok
  9. Jazz Jackbit 1(ems) - AUX, cannot initialize .. error 25.. with sound driver loaded, Kamerat with (Asus P5B-Deluxe, Core 2 Duo,Y744 - reported same problem),
    even with no sound setting in setup i have same problem // DosBox:OK
  10. Ultima VII (NOEMS only) - NOEMS - intro is playing with sound, but after in get black screen. NOEMS not loaded sound driver is the same. EMS - message remove expanded memory manager before playing Ultima. Protected mode - unreadable error message. Realmode - goes in game, but of course without sound. Its fast as hell, so i would need slowdown. //Dosbox:ok
  11. Comanche: Maximum Overkill (ems+NOEMS) - EMS386 - Unrecoverable priviliged operation error - press Enter to reboot, same without sound driver loaded and with PC speaker sound, in folder are autoexec.xms and config.xms so it should run in realmode.. //Dosbox: OK
  12. Duke Nukem 2(ems) - games sound and music is working, but im not quite sure, but there are some silent moments 1-2s, which are not in Dosbox, when you do something, its like only 1 channel would be used for music, Setmul - doesnt solve that, IRQ7 doesnt helps too. NOEMS - not sound at all. //Dosbox:OK
  13. Ishar 1 (92) (ems + NOEMS its the same) - when i select sound blaster - only pc speaker sound is playing, game is running fine, IRQ7 is not solution, with Adlib music and FX working // DosBox: Ok - sound and music is playing through SB..
  14. Ishar 2(93) (ems + NOEMS) - when i select sound blaster - i get that 23000 bytes of executable memory needs to be freed otherwise sound capabilities would be limited - only pc speaker sound is playing, game is running fine, this game needs 605 KB.. With Adlib and more free memory - music playing but no FX, even on PC speaker and its way to silent.. // Dosbox: ok - - sound and music is playing through SB..
  15. Ishar 3 (94) (ems+NOEMS) - after setup and Sound blaster selection - Interupt 0DH, general protection fault - possible illegal address, no sound driver and no sound setting, slowdowns nothing, iRQ7 is not solution, Ishar3 has not Adlib or PC speaker options.. //Dosbox: with Gulikoza 2011 - working with all modes with Dosbox-X, with Ykn- 2015 - its working only in NO-XMS, EMS- False Mode with Sound and Music
  16. Monkey Island 2 (ems+NOEMS) - to configure sound setting you have to run game with "/?" parameter, with IRQ5 nothing, with IRQ 7 Adlib is working, SB doesnt. // Dosbox:ok
  17. Master of Magic (req ems) - setup graphics is half broken on Ati cards on Nvidia just glitches. With SB PRO for both and music - game is with working, but sound and music are broken, very similar to Dune II when expanded memory is enabled, before it crash. With Adlib for music and SB pro pro sounds its perfect, if we would game guideline, i would say working game.. Its there really difference in Adlib and SBpro Music because some games have Adlib / SB settings as 1 item? //Dosbox: Ok
  18. Worms (ems+NOEMS) - i getting freeze at menu screen, without loaded sound drivers its working // Dosbox: ok
  19. Civilization 1 - v474.04 (ems) - tried everything IRQ 5/7, slowdowns, no sound, not loaded sound driver etc.. im always stuck atd Microprose logo and intro play when i press key and i got freeze - menu should load.. Same problem reported even on P3 450 / I never was familiar with Hex editors and exe editation, but perhaps someone is, on that link is a fix. I tried slowdowns at slimer speed still nothing./ Dosbox: ok
  20. Screamer - (ems), when i run it with startl its working fine, when i use starth for bigger resolution, i see some introscene in highres, but after got noise and crash, i maybe Ati videochip related. Both ati cards + nvidia tested. //Dosbox:ok
  21. BlackThorne (req. ems) - With new memory setting, sounds are working, music doesnt, even Adlib not working //Dosbox:ok
  22. Prehistoric 2 (ems) - Working, but sound is crackling, it tried some slowdown for now without success //Dosbox:ok
  23. Alladin (ems, noems,realmode,protected mode) - always same error XMS allocation error //Dosbox:ok


Future list plans
- with Aureal Vortex 2 would make sense move results into online table form and after than it would be problem add also column with version of tested game and ems, NOEMS, realmode, protection mode matrix to make results more clear..

Dont like tested games selection?
If you want to test some game with is free or has demo, you can create test package, i will run it. It should be ready to run, except sound setting (i have SB PRO IRQ5, LOW-DMA1,388-Adlib - classic), i will not read some install guides etc, im will just fast and furious..

As you probably find out, im not good with letters+grammar in every language, i never had brain for that i was always better with numbers, sorry. If something is not clear just ask.

my X58 pure Dos compatibility conclusion with Yamaha 744 soundacrd
===================================================================
- TBD, waiting to result of JEMM386 testing..

Guides for responses:
When you address some issue use Game Name or issue number from list or common problems letter(a),b) etc..), thanks.

The knowledge must flow!
Last edited by ruthan on 2018-7-16 @ 01:14, edited 284 times in total.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby Kamerat » 2018-7-09 @ 16:27

I made a little compatibility list for the YMF744 using the DSDMA TSR a couple of years ago if you're interested (done on the older P965 chipset though). I listed Warcraft II under compatible, but it still got issues with scrolling like you did. Pinball Fantasies needs disabling of cache for smoother sound.

ruthan wrote:Games which are not working for now:
...
Dune II - At least in XMS mode - i select house and nothing happens.. Music is still playing, PC Speaker mode is working fine, with sound driver its working. Setmul l1d doesnt help. // Dosbox:Ok

Seems like Dune II struggles with the YMF744 even in DDMA mode.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-10 @ 02:42

Ok, i completed testing of all games which i wanted to test, i sure that i will add few more games later, but there is not rush.

I still have some ideas what to try to make problematic games working and thread to read, but its mainly about community, because i never was Dos settings expert and im almost sure that some advanced users will find lots of errors in my configuration files and lots of ways what to try to fix games problems. If need some logs from my machine etc, just ask for them, i will provide them..

Lets bug hunt begins!

For now are final numbers:
Fully working games : 65 (when i counted at the end of good games was - Magic Carpet, it will help with recounting)
Not fully worked games: 32
=> X58+ Yamaha 744 Pure Dos Platform success ratio for Dos - 67% for now..
Im old goal oriented goat, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos and prejudices etc.. Its about gaming, not hoarding, hoarding is sickness. If you want respect, you should gain it by your behavior, out of box you get benefit of the doubt.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-10 @ 03:27

@Kamerat:
Dune II - ok, we have problem, i added note that its not only problem of my machine, same as for Jazz Jackrabbit.
Warcraft II - its hard case its working from perspective you sound and MB and CPU, but i look this at whole machine - true / false - ATI x800 is my primary Dos videocard and it would like to solve this problem..
Im old goal oriented goat, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos and prejudices etc.. Its about gaming, not hoarding, hoarding is sickness. If you want respect, you should gain it by your behavior, out of box you get benefit of the doubt.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby dr.zeissler » 2018-7-10 @ 07:16

Thx for this thread. My No1 PCI-Soundcard is the ESS-Solo1 (ESS1938) it's a fantastic card especially with a waveblaster-upgrade. It does not require EMS loaded either.

Some Dos-Soundengines do have problems with it. I never got into why.
- Doom1 is working fine (old version before 1.666)
- Doom2/Hexen/Heretic/Duke/Blood/Shadow-Warrior all have a dma-issue while sound-test. (they do work in win98se with wdm-drivers on that same card, but I love the vxd-drivers because then I have FM in Dos and MIDI with wavetable in windows; wdm-driver does not support the waveblasterupgrade on the card within win98se)
- Pinball-Dreams/Pinball-Fantasies etc. do lock up the machine "klack,klack,klack", but do work in "adlib" mode if the machine is not too fast otherwise a sweeping strange noise occurs while playback.

Would be nice if someone has additions tipps how to fix these issues.

Greetings
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby dr_st » 2018-7-10 @ 09:06

ruthan wrote:Hexen I (ems) - its working with sound on IPS 4:3 LCD where other games are ok, are wayyy too bright - i wonder if something could be done with it? For now only game with this problem
Maybe it's just stuck on high gamma? Try pressing F11 a few times.

ruthan wrote:Lemmings (ems) - only pc Speaker sounds // Dosbox:ok, music playing
This is a known bug in the Lemmings audio detection routine - if the CPU is too fast it fails to find the sound card and only PC speaker works. DOSBox has the same problem if the cycles are set too high.

dr.ruthan wrote:For now are final numbers:
Fully working games : 65 (when i counted at the end of good games was - Magic Carpet, it will help with recounting)
Not fully worked games: 32
=> X58+ Yamaha 744 Pure Dos Platform success ratio for Dos - 67% for now..
Good summary. And DOSBox success ratio is much higher, right? Out of the box, on the same system, without the many hours of tinkering and fine tuning that you spent on the pure DOS setup.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-10 @ 17:22

Lots of Doctors here and i dont even have f*.. PhD :)

@DR_ST -
Good summary. And DOSBox success ratio is much higher, right? Out of the box, on the same system, without the many hours of tinkering and fine tuning that you spent on the pure DOS setup.

Tinkering phase just started, before i just did reboot marathon for initial testing, i didnt even start to google my issues, this morning i finished some Yamaha guide on this forum, to find some more info about compatibility.
I would never expect that overall compatibility would be better than Dosbox, but guess that if games are working, there is usually little bit better feeling from gaming experience. You my knowledge even Dosbox is not without issue, i would say that in DosBox i have around 85% success ratio without some research and googling with it, i could get up to 95%.
Yes there is definitely more work to make pure Dos machine happen, but my skill is growing, i could create some inteligent batch files to start games more quickly.. With but my quide, it would be easier for new users.. and other users are doing research in other areas to make space great again:)

Thanks (2 games fixed)- Hexen1 - fixed, i dont know about F11 gamma settings, Lemmings - hmm, i forget that this problematic game with L1 cache disabled.

I also added some SB IRQ7 boot branch and it fixed Double Dragon 3.

@ dr.zeissler -
Thx for this thread. My No1 PCI-Soundcard is the ESS-Solo1 (ESS1938) it's a fantastic card especially with a waveblaster-upgrade. It does not require EMS loaded either.

The most important question is how ESS1938 working with new chipsets, could it work with X58/ICH10, which chipset you are tested it? No EMS need for driver - that is great.
You sound problem - there are lots of variable is very easy to set something work or sub-optimal and lots of unknow magic /research involved. Do other users with same card same problem? Tried you different drivers versions, IRQ, DMA etc settings? Do you have some BIOS setting which you can fiddle?

Klack, klack, klack problem - i hit it too. once i need to reboot, setting so broken by some game which i played before.. sometimes slowdown helps to fix it.
Last edited by ruthan on 2018-7-10 @ 20:06, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ZanQuance » 2018-7-10 @ 17:58

ruthan wrote:12) Only other Sound Card, which make sense to try on X58 machine is Aureal Vortex 2, im right?

The AU8830 will only operate on newer machines if they still have LPC support on the chipset, looks like the X58 does.
Legacy SB/Adlib ports are hardware captured and need to be accessible.
The AU8830's do not make use of SB-LINK(PC/PCI), DDMA, TDMA, or the other hardware solutions other soundcards have, instead they trigger an interrupt to the driver TSR when it captures a supported SB command then reads the 8257 DMA controller registers for what it needs to program the AU8830's PCI BusMastering.

I'm not sure what can be done on non-LPC motherboards, but wouldn't these unsupported machines be far to modern for DOS and retro anyways?
All projects are currently on the backburner, but ARE being worked on.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-10 @ 18:51

SB IRQ7 fixed BlakeStone and Syndicate too.

Update: Updated confings for SB IRQ7 branch and retested all problematic games with that, also limitted max mem for XMS for 32 MB - more than 32 MB Afaik needs only Blood patched for 3Dfx.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby dr.zeissler » 2018-7-10 @ 20:34

ruthan wrote: Your sound problem - there are lots of variable is very easy to set something work or sub-optimal and lots of unknow magic /research involved.
Do other users with same card same problem? Tried you different drivers versions, IRQ, DMA etc settings? Do you have some BIOS setting which you can fiddle?
Klack, klack, klack problem - i hit it too. once i need to reboot, setting so broken by some game which i played before.. sometimes slowdown helps to fix it.


FM works on every chipset I have tested. Digi-Sound does work up to 865, with 915 and upwards the machine is locked when trying to play digisound.
SBpro never works with ESS-Solo in Pinball-Games. Only Adlib or Covox do work but sweeping noise is still there even when slowing down with "cpucache/throttle etc."

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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-10 @ 21:54

dr.zeissler wrote:FM works on every chipset I have tested. Digi-Sound does work up to 865, with 915 and upwards the machine is locked when trying to play digisound.
SBpro never works with ESS-Solo in Pinball-Games. Only Adlib or Covox do work but sweeping noise is still there even when slowing down with "cpucache/throttle etc."

On 865 works even SB Live / Audigy and Yamaha and Aureal are reported to work on 915 and modern chipsets.. so they are simply better and only cards for newer than i865 chipsets..
Im old goal oriented goat, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos and prejudices etc.. Its about gaming, not hoarding, hoarding is sickness. If you want respect, you should gain it by your behavior, out of box you get benefit of the doubt.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-10 @ 21:59

ZanQuance wrote:The AU8830 will only operate on newer machines if they still have LPC support on the chipset, looks like the X58 does.
Legacy SB/Adlib ports are hardware captured and need to be accessible.
The AU8830's do not make use of SB-LINK(PC/PCI), DDMA, TDMA, or the other hardware solutions other soundcards have, instead they trigger an interrupt to the driver TSR when it captures a supported SB command then reads the 8257 DMA controller registers for what it needs to program the AU8830's PCI BusMastering.

If im not wrong my Yamaha 744 its on my board working only with DSDMA.exe and that is TSR utility too..

ZanQuance wrote:I'm not sure what can be done on non-LPC motherboards, but wouldn't these unsupported machines be far to modern for DOS and retro anyways?

Its always nice to try push a bit further, why not if it would be possible. How to check if computer has LPC?
-------
Converted working and not working games list to bb list so you can more easily to watch progress and do compability calculation - now we reached 72%,
also added Civ1 - as not compatible.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby LSS10999 » 2018-7-11 @ 01:22

ruthan wrote:
ZanQuance wrote:I'm not sure what can be done on non-LPC motherboards, but wouldn't these unsupported machines be far to modern for DOS and retro anyways?

Its always nice to try push a bit further, why not if it would be possible. How to check if computer has LPC?


I think LPC should be there for most motherboards even current ones, as SuperIO chips (for legacy I/O ports like PS/2, UART, etc.) and most TPM ports use it.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-12 @ 03:52

I managed to add PCI ATI Mach64 2 MB videocard to machine for testing.. I tested all 30 problematic games with it, and results is interesting..
Exactly the same, no help, i expected at least something. Only Warcraft II get working, but it worked already with one of my videcards (Geforce 730).

I managed to get working 1 more game - its unrelated to videocards - it everytime hanged on taking advantage of memory, i did some ems386 tuning, add min=4096 and scanhigh and buffers=>buffershigh and files=>fileshigh and it helped, or maybe i only managed get few more free kilobytes of conventional memory free (likely..) I retested all games with this memory settings during videocard testing, it helped only with Kyrandia1, so not magic bullet.

So what it means, my problem have to be related to:
1) Yamaha Sound card and its driver and settings (im sure only about 3 games that there is soundcard proble - 2 of them use some dpmi*16.ovl driver (Xatax, Jazz) + there is Dune II). Maybe is somewhere new version of this ovl driver, it look like 3rd party creation added to games, it probably means - DOS Protected Mode Interface..
2) Overall platform limitation which i cant change - simply machine BIOS layer (lots of people would see clearly main reason, but i would be careful with that yet..)
3) Im more and more starting to think that AHCI controllers in IDE mode, is not native IDE controller - i have those strage General disk reads failures during game starts - never later when i playing to i would be memory mapping, driver stuff, in some mode only. There are X58 boards with IDE ports, there are IDE controllers, there are even overprices IDE SSD, or i can use some IDE to Sata convertor (but it possible source of other layer of problems).
4) My config files settings - its really my wild creation and there are lots of thing, which are unclear to be and few games already bitching about not enough of conventional memory, i really dunno if my 580-590 KB is not reason of lots of my problems, always remembered what we tried to have at least 600KB, but it was hard.
+ Of course combination of all of these.

But is too much "magic" even for me, some diagnostic testing utility which would test how much machine would be compatible and where is problem, which would prevent games to work would be really nice.

I also discovered that i can run Yamaha setup utility (3.14) from Ems / XMs mode its working.. but freezing when im trying to save settings - i only wanted to change volume of CD-IN audio - it was too silent.
Im old goal oriented goat, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos and prejudices etc.. Its about gaming, not hoarding, hoarding is sickness. If you want respect, you should gain it by your behavior, out of box you get benefit of the doubt.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-12 @ 20:26

I updated Knowledge PIT => wisdom -solutions / discoveries parth with some more info about config branching, smartdrive and some very quick Win98 on such machine info just for start, for people whose could have problems with it and show that its not problem on such machine.
Im old goal oriented goat, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos and prejudices etc.. Its about gaming, not hoarding, hoarding is sickness. If you want respect, you should gain it by your behavior, out of box you get benefit of the doubt.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-13 @ 01:41

I tested all problematic games without smartdrv.exe => 30 KB of more conventional memory..
It helped only for 2 games:
Wing Commander 2 -no complaining about not enough memory for speech, but its stuck on speech load
Ishar II - but SB sound is still not working..

I also tested few games with Adlib..
Ishar 1 - sounds and music are working
Ishar2 - music is working, no sounds

Epic pinball + Dungeon Keeper Gold added as working games.

I also added some more info to problematic games.

I also uploaded there new experimental config files at the start - line 54, but when i use other branch other line is reported, its strange, i did not managed to fix it something with branch, help is welcome.

We are also discussing my ems settings here:
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=61151&p=683857#p683857

Find some info to divide overflow error:
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=60921&p=681165&hilit=Divide+Overflow#p681165
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=29417&p=239061&hilit=Your+program+caused+a+divide+overflow+error#p239061
But for now i dont know that with it.. But im not alone it has even some Pentium 90, so i bet that lots of people had some problem and if someone is claiming that some K6-II Pentium III, even Conroe are great Dos compatible machines, he has to solve this.
There is mentioned some loadfix and divefix, i had not time too google them..
Im old goal oriented goat, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos and prejudices etc.. Its about gaming, not hoarding, hoarding is sickness. If you want respect, you should gain it by your behavior, out of box you get benefit of the doubt.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-13 @ 13:32

Added lspci -v log.. - note because of debugging i used Geforce 210 card because of cooler shape (free slots) instead of Geforce 730 and ATI Mach 64 2 MB, maybe it out be interesting for someone:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/83h08f5yiz7et ... 8.txt?dl=0

I also tried burnmem.sys, but i dont undestart what means its parameter.. and readme is Russian or Chinese or something like that, i example of config without comments is:
device=burnmem.sys 10000000
device=himem.sys /testmem:off

Its working, i thought than number means how much memory i want to have 10MB, but i works otherwise.. with this im getting in mem - 256 MB, but 20000000 - 512 MB and, when i originally tried 32768000 as for 32 MB of mem, i got crashing during some driver loading - i could debug it step by step, if is someone interested in..

I package is also - EXTINFO.exe utility, print only half of output or crashes - depends on magic number..

Some Dune II progress from not working with sound, new are not at working with Adlib and working with SB Pro except units speech sound.. problem is probably again memory related.
Im old goal oriented goat, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos and prejudices etc.. Its about gaming, not hoarding, hoarding is sickness. If you want respect, you should gain it by your behavior, out of box you get benefit of the doubt.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-14 @ 13:46

With help of dr_ST i managed to get working quite few of previously not working games.. because of change with EMS settings line, but there is problem in have less conventional memory and some games with worked with previous EMS settings are now not working.
EMS line:
Code: Select all
 DEVICEHIGH=C:\WINDOWS\EMM386.EXE I=B400-B7FF NOTR I=CA00-CBFF RAM HIGHSCAN VERBOSE


I will keep investigating, worst scenario is that you will need one config branch to make some games working.. What is important is feasible, to make those games working.. Im at the start of testing:
- but NHL 93 is working, Wing Commander II is running, Ultima Underworld 1 and 2, Spacehulk is working, Darklands + Master of Magic go to ingame, - are now running - there could be problem with sound with before it not ran at all.
Tes: Arena - working.

I also discovered that change setupds for Yamaha is working only in protected mod, probably because there is not load driver loaded, in ems and xms mode freeze on save settings and settings are not saved..

System Shock fixed, i find magic soundcard value, to bypass not broken setup graphics.
Im old goal oriented goat, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos and prejudices etc.. Its about gaming, not hoarding, hoarding is sickness. If you want respect, you should gain it by your behavior, out of box you get benefit of the doubt.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby Falcosoft » 2018-7-14 @ 19:57

ruthan wrote: I also discovered that change setupds for Yamaha is working only in protected mod, probably because there is not load driver loaded, in ems and xms mode freeze on save settings and settings are not saved..

test theAureal Votex 2 - if it has better or worse pure Dos compability than Yamahas Sound cards + drivers, good it that driver is running without EMS os Protected mode is possible with sound.
...
Protection mode (no memory manager, no sound because Yamaha TSR - DMA driver requiring EMS/XMS)
...
- Most compatible settings for games is EMS, so you someone would tell you that you almost dont need etc, its not true


Hi,
While I respect your effort to make an overall guide for others your terminology is sometimes very misleading:
1. Your only configuration when you are NOT in protected mode right at the beginning is the configuration that you usually call 'protected mode'...
EMM386 switch your CPU into protected/V86 mode (it's true even for the configuration with the NOEMS parameter). In protected/V86 mode no user programs/games can use privileged instructions anymore. That's why you get 'unrecoverable privileged operation error' messages and that's why setupds freezes on you. Programs that require direct low level hardware access can not work when EMM386 is loaded. Your only configuration when your CPU is NOT in protected mode but in real mode, is the one you call 'protected mode' :). In real mode programs are allowed to execute privileged instruction and make low level hardware changes.
Using JEMM386 instead of EMM386 can cure some of these problems because of this:
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=60428#p675230
JEMM386:
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=60451#p680332

2. HIMEM(x) is also a memory manager. So it's not true that your 'protected mode' configuration does not use any memory managers. But contrary to EMM386 that manages EMS memory HIMEM(x) manages XMS memory(and HIMEM does not switch the CPU into protected/V86 mode).

3. Because all of the above said stuff it's simply not true that 'Most compatible settings for games is EMS'. Quite the contrary. In your case since your soundcard's SB emulation requires EMM386 of course it's the most usable setting for you. But if someone has a soundcard that does not have this precondition for SB emulation (e.g. Aureal) it's not the most compatible mode.
All the programs that use their own 32-bit DOS extender (DOS4GW, DOS/32A etc.) do not require EMM386 per definition. It's true for Doom, Quake, Duke Nukem 3D, Blood, and all the games that use the Build engine, also Warcraft II etc. For these games using EMM386 causes no harm at the best case. But with EMM386 loaded you cannot use low level optimization tools such as FastVid, MTRRLFBE, MSRED, CACHECTL etc. And e.g. for playing Build games in high resolution modes enabling LFB write combining is a must even on the most modern systems:
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=59266

For configurations that do not require EMM386 for SB emulation, using UMBPCI instead of EMM386 can be a much more compatible setting. It basically makes the same as your EMM386 NOEMS config so you can use upper memory blocks (that means more available conventional memory for programs) but it does not switch the CPU into protected /V86 mode.
UMBPCI:
https://www.uwe-sieber.de/umbpci_e.html

Bye
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby dr_st » 2018-7-14 @ 20:40

Falcosoft wrote:3. Because all of the above said stuff it's simply not true that 'Most compatible settings for games is EMS'. Quite the contrary. In your case since your soundcard's SB emulation requires EMM386 of course it's the most usable setting for you. But if someone has a soundcard that does not have this precondition for SB emulation (e.g. Aureal) it's not the most compatible mode.
All the programs that use their own 32-bit DOS extender (DOS4GW, DOS/32A etc.) do not require EMM386 per definition. It's true for Doom, Quake, Duke Nukem 3D, Blood, and all the games that use the Build engine, also Warcraft II etc. For these games using EMM386 causes no harm at the best case. But with EMM386 loaded you cannot use low level optimization tools such as FastVid, MTRRLFBE, MSRED, CACHECTL etc. And e.g. for playing Build games in high resolution modes enabling LFB write combining is a must even on the most modern systems:
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=59266
I think the most succinct way to put it is that very few (any?) games are incompatible with EMM386/protected mode per se. Only when you venture into the realm of the low-level optimization tools that you mentioned does EMM386 become a problem, and you only need them for a handful of very specific scenarios, or so it seems. Is there anything else other than playing Build games on high resolutions that actually requires all this stuff?
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