Adlib To Midi

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Adlib To Midi

Postby anonyme-x22 » 2019-11-03 @ 17:07

Hi,

Can dosbox send the adlib message to a midi output ?
The goal is to use a synthetizer (TX81Z) to generate the sound instead of the dosbox adlib driver.

Thanks in advance,
Have a good day,
Rgds,
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Re: Adlib To Midi

Postby jmarsh » 2019-11-03 @ 17:19

It can send midi (MPU-401) to a midi output... adlib is completely different.
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Re: Adlib To Midi

Postby anonyme-x22 » 2019-11-03 @ 23:25

Hi,

I know this.

I would like to know if it's possible to send the adlib (opl2/3) emulation to midi.

Normally it's the adlib/SB driver in the game which have to be replaced in order to send midi message, but as dosbox emulate it, perhaps it's possible to modify the dosbox configuration to send midi messages when using opl2/3 driver...

I think the gravis ultrsound used trick like this to emulate the adlib.

Have a good day,
Rgds,
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Re: Adlib To Midi

Postby Scali » 2019-11-03 @ 23:29

The AdLib is not a MIDI device, and does not interpret any MIDI data.

The UltraSound intercepts writes to the ports that are mapped to the OPL2 registers on AdLib, and then translates this to instrument/note data for the GUS synth (which again is not a MIDI device).

In short: it isn't possible.
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Re: Adlib To Midi

Postby anonyme-x22 » 2019-11-03 @ 23:45

Hi,

I know.
It's exactly what i want, but instead of translating to data for the gus, i would like to translate then in midi data.
So i understand it's not implemented. Could be a new feature ?

Have a good day,
Rgds,
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Re: Adlib To Midi

Postby gdjacobs » 2019-11-04 @ 00:07

It would be more than a new feature. I'm not aware of any open program that performs this type of translation. There are MIDI synthesizers that output via FM synthesis, but it's definitely not the same thing.
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Re: Adlib To Midi

Postby anonyme-x22 » 2019-11-04 @ 00:24

Hi,

Of course there aren't. It will be a dosbox "exclusive feature".
The TX81Z has the YM2414B sound chip on board.
It can do 95% of the OPL2, because one wave is a little different but quite close.
it can also do 90% of the OPL3, because three wave are different, with 2 very different.
There are guys on youtube which use the tx81z to play OPL3 game music with pretty close and even better results on some instruments.
The sound of the tx81z is more fat.
And the more interesting thing is that you can add a configuration file to map the adlib paremeter to CC/Sysex for synthetizer like the MT-32 or sy-77 or DX-7 or whatever you want...

Have a good day,
Rgds,
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Re: Adlib To Midi

Postby ripsaw8080 » 2019-11-04 @ 04:30

You may find this of interest: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=42034

To summarize my points in the linked thread: DOSBox can capture AdLib at the register level into DRO files, and then you can convert DRO to MIDI with a separate utility program. To do such conversion in real time seems possible, but you'll have to find someone to code that if you won't be doing it yourself. ;)
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Re: Adlib To Midi

Postby Scali » 2019-11-04 @ 11:08

And that's only one part of the equation.
You may have your MIDI with note data, but you still need to map the AdLib instruments to your other FM synth's instruments.
None of this is standardized in any way, so extracting instruments from AdLib games in MIDI-like form is not really an option.
And unless you are using an actual MIDI-based FM synth to replay them, such as a Yamaha FB-01, there may be no standardized way to store the instrument data in MIDI anyway.
Let alone that you can translate from one format to the other automatically.

You'll probably end up having to hand-edit an instrument bank for each individual song and each individual playback-device.

In which case, I'm not really sure what there is to gain. For a lot of games you can already find a MIDI-version of their music. Either ripped from the game itself, or recreated by some fan. Might as well start from there.
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Re: Adlib To Midi

Postby anonyme-x22 » 2019-11-04 @ 18:17

Hi,

The goal is to use the closest FM synthetizer to OPL 2/3 which is TX81Z. (Two chained in fact to have 16 voice)

I'm not enjoying the emulated synthetizer or sound card, MT-32 real hardware sound better than any emulator, as for the sound canvas vst which is cold vs a SC-880. It is known that a real adlib or sb2 sound better than any emulated drivers. Unfortunately there isn't any other way today than to use a FM 4 OP synthetizer for the opl 2/3 emulation. The adlib card is an isa one. No Pci card exist and even if it was existing, not sure if i could be driven in the isa way.

Regarding the Instrument as i told:
For the standard instruments, you load a sysex file before adapted to the synthetiser or it can also be done in a configuratin file.
For the realtime instruments, you map the generators parameters to syssex/cc via a configuration file so when the game is modifying the instruments, it's directly send by cc/sysex using the configuration file.

It's useful for:
Game without general midi compatibility.
Playing any game with a real opl 2/3 rendering.

So if a deliberate one could add an option to dosbox (or any other svn build like dosbox x) in order to redrive the opl 2/3 data to standard midi note+CC+sysex (based on a configuration file), i would be greatly grateful to him in waiting for another way to ouput real opl 2/3 sound. (New PCi Opl 2/3)

As i told before it's a new exclusive feature, not like the dosbox video rendering improvement scalers whose are used in many other emulator, but a unique feature used nowhere.

Rgds,
Last edited by anonyme-x22 on 2019-11-05 @ 15:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adlib To Midi

Postby cyclone3d » 2019-11-04 @ 20:58

Any of the Yamaha YMF72x / YMF74x boards which are PCI should let you have real OPL3 in any system that has PCI slots. Not sure if using a PCIe to PCI bridge though.

Any game that supports OPL2/3 should work fine with it even if you have a system that doesn't have a chipset that allows the Sound Blaster emulation part to work. Except for maybe nVidia chipset based boards. I still need to test what exactly will/will not work on an nVidia based board.
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Re: Adlib To Midi

Postby anonyme-x22 » 2019-11-05 @ 07:43

Hi,

Regarding the AOpen Cobra YMF-744. It's not a opl2/3 Fm Chips.
It'a a more powerfull chips wich can be set to emulate the SB and other things.
Better going on sb pci in this case.

Rgds,
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Re: Adlib To Midi

Postby tpowell.ca » 2019-11-05 @ 14:11

anonyme-x22 wrote:Regarding the AOpen Cobra YMF-744. It's not a opl2/3 Fm Chips.


The YMF7xx series chips can natively handle OPL2/3 commands and have a built-in synth to do so.
It is one of the best solutions to getting true OPL synthesis on a PCI-based system.

No Creative SB PCI card has an OPL synth.
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Re: Adlib To Midi

Postby cyclone3d » 2019-11-05 @ 15:27

anonyme-x22 wrote:Hi,

Regarding the AOpen Cobra YMF-744. It's not a opl2/3 Fm Chips.
It'a a more powerfull chips wich can be set to emulate the SB and other things.
Better going on sb pci in this case.

Rgds,


No kidding it is a more powerful chip. The fact remains that it has integrated Yamaha OPL3 (register compatible with the YMF289B, which in turn is register compatible with the YMF262).

YMF744B datasheet:
YMF744B_datasheet.pdf
(301.95 KiB) Downloaded 21 times


YMF289B datasheet:
YMF289B_datasheet.pdf
(613.18 KiB) Downloaded 21 times
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Re: Adlib To Midi

Postby anonyme-x22 » 2019-11-05 @ 15:39

Hi,

Yes you're right no soundblaster after sb16 contains an original opl 2/3 chip.
But this card hasn't also an original OPL 2/3 chip. It may be compatible like the sb 64 or 128 pci in all the aspect of the opl 2/3 but will sound differently also. It's more a yamaha awe 64 card, than an adlib card. It's a good alternative through.
The tx81z dac is more closer to the old opl 2/3 series. The cleaner sound of the YMF7xx series should be quite the same as the dosbox driver + a little warmer sound due to it's dac and other component on the board, no way the warm fat, lowfi sound of the TX81z or original opl 2/3 chip with their 8-12 bit range dac.

@cyclone3d: thanks for confirming, that's not a opl 2/3 original but a compatible one, like the first sb pci (64-128).

Rgds,
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Re: Adlib To Midi

Postby tpowell.ca » 2019-11-05 @ 16:04

anonyme-x22 wrote:Hi,

Yes you're right no soundblaster after sb16 contains an original opl 2/3 chip.
But this card hasn't also an original OPL 2/3 chip. It may be compatible like the sb 64 or 128 pci in all the aspect of the opl 2/3 but will sound differently also. It's more a yamaha awe 64 card, than an adlib card. It's a good alternative through.
The tx81z dac is more closer to the old opl 2/3 series. The cleaner sound of the YMF7xx series should be quite the same as the dosbox driver + a little warmer sound due to it's dac and other component on the board, no way the warm fat, lowfi sound of the TX81z or original opl 2/3 chip with their 8-12 bit range dac.

@cyclone3d: thanks for confirming, that's not a opl 2/3 original but a compatible one, like the first sb pci (64-128).

Rgds,


You are incorrect. You can get cards as recent as the AWE32 with a genuine OPL3 chip. Only the AWE64 cards and above are guaranteed NOT to have an OPL3 chip anymore.
Also, the YMF7xx is nothing like an SB64/128. The YMF7xx has a genuine Yamaha OPL synthesizer and will sound like a nearly perfect copy of an OPL3 chip. The PCI versions of the Sound Blaster cards emulate FM using their own CQM which is quite different.

On a PCI bus, there is NO easier way to get a closer experience to an Adlib OPL2/3 than the YMF7xx cards.
As for the argument that the YMF7xx is "compatible" with the OPL2/3 registers only and isn't the same, well the OPL3 is also only "compatible" with the OPL2 chip.
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Re: Adlib To Midi

Postby cyclone3d » 2019-11-05 @ 16:17

Compare an ISA card with a Yamaha OPL3 with one of the PCI cards with a Yamaha YMF724, YMF740C, YMF744B or YMF754 (unsure of the YMF738) and they will sound the same except for the fact that the PCI card will have cleaner output.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_YMF7xx

It is genuine Yamaha OPL3. Why do you think Yamaha would change their OPL just because it is integrated into a single chip solution?

Same goes for the Yamaha YMF based ISA cards.

Have you actually tried one?
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Re: Adlib To Midi

Postby anonyme-x22 » 2019-11-05 @ 17:02

Hi,

@tpowell.ca:
Sorry only the sb pro 2 and some sb16 has the original chip. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Blaster_16
Yes it shoulb be a Genuine OPL3 chip in the YMF7xx, even if aren't specified.
Opl3 is of course compatible opl2. Do you know something with an opl2 chip on board except the adlib and the sound blaster 1.5 ?
It's possible that this card has better sound than a pci sound blaster, but in no way the same sound as the older card, dac and implementation story.
On pci bus, that why we are talking about midi adlib on YM2414B.

@cyclone3d: Cleared sound, don't interested. Want 8-12 Bit dac, warm, lofi, distorded, etc...
Of course your're right that's why all those genuine card don't sound like the old YM3812 chip. Yamaha use genuine chips for cheap sound card, and dedicated chips for synthetizer. Only the adlib to sb pro2 had dedicated chip, whose where also cheaper than the synthetizer version at that time.
Of course not, there isn't fully controllable fm midi on these board, plus the dac isn't a 12 bit. Better using the dosbox drivers for the subtle difference there will be for game. Plus after tried lot of vst and new compatible gear, when it's not implemented the same, the sound isn't the same, even if you don't heard the differences. (MP3 vs Wav)

Did you ever tried the adlib, with it's pot on the back. Dune pratically blow up my speakers at that time. The low frequency there and there... https://texelec.com/product/resound-opl ... 8-bit-isa/

Rgds,
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Re: Adlib To Midi

Postby Scali » 2019-11-05 @ 17:44

anonyme-x22 wrote:Sorry only the sb pro 2 has the original chip. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Blaster_16


From your link:
Wiki wrote:The majority of Sound Blaster 16 cards feature either a discrete Yamaha YMF262 OPL-3 FM synthesizer, or a CT1747 chip which has this synthesizer integrated. Some post-1995 cards (notably the CT2910) feature the fully compatible YMF289 FM synthesis chip instead.

Starting in late 1995, Creative utilized a cost-reduced, software-compatible replacement for the OPL-3 FM support termed CQM synthesis.[2] However, its synthesis was far from being entirely faithful to the OPL-3 chips, producing considerable distortion along with high-pitched 'squeaking' or 'ringing' artifacts in FM-synthesized music and sound effects. Boards utilizing CQM synthesis feature a CT1978 chip, or they may have CQM integrated in the case of ViBRA16C/X-based boards.


So most SB16s have the real chip, like an SB Pro 2, they have the OPL3 chip integrated into a larger ASIC, or they use the YMF289 instead, which is just a low-power version of the YMF262 (OPL3), all variations basicially being 'the original chip' in various packagings.
Only some SB16s from late 1995 and beyond, have CQM.

Here's an SB16 (CT1740) with the original YMF262:
Image
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Re: Adlib To Midi

Postby tpowell.ca » 2019-11-05 @ 18:06

Image
Image

That chip, the CT1747 contains a full, licenced, Yamaha OPL3 synth, not compatible-with, not emulated. The real deal and can be found on some SB16 and AWE32 cards.
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