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Reply 180 of 344, by dj_pirtu

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cde wrote on 2022-04-02, 16:55:

I have noticed some PCI slots can be more finicky than others. If possible, also try to change the PCI slot.

Forgot to say, that Geforce don't work at all. Even without any other cards. It looks like the card is broken but it works on my Pentium4 -system.

Edit: getting somewhere. In BIOS, AGP driving value to EA (default DA) and with that I got Quadro4 980XGL stable.

Edit2: swapped 6800GT in and tried older VIA drivers, WinXP own CPU to AGP driver. Different driving values, AGP 2X, aperture sizes, another PSU, nothing helps. After few minutes of gaming it crashes to desktop or reboots.

I don't know what to try next or just give up. If I remember right my previous v1.1 KT7A didnt work with Geforces either.

Last edited by dj_pirtu on 2023-10-22, 19:31. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 181 of 344, by mockingbird

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cde wrote on 2022-04-01, 16:52:

By the way, can I bother you with patching and sharing the 1.3 BIOS as well? My recollection is that it should be version A9 (latest for 1.3 boards) but I could be wrong.

Sure. You want the microcode update and the unhide disable ACPI, correct?

dj_pirtu wrote on 2022-04-03, 06:33:

I don't know what to try next or just give up. If I remember right my previous v1.1 KT7A didnt work with Geforces either.

I'll test it for you... Got several different 6800 cards... None of them are the AGP 2x capable variants, but that shouldn't matter.

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Reply 182 of 344, by cde

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mockingbird wrote on 2022-04-04, 03:55:
cde wrote on 2022-04-01, 16:52:

By the way, can I bother you with patching and sharing the 1.3 BIOS as well? My recollection is that it should be version A9 (latest for 1.3 boards) but I could be wrong.

Sure. You want the microcode update and the unhide disable ACPI, correct?

Yeah, that would be awesome 😀

Reply 183 of 344, by dj_pirtu

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mockingbird wrote on 2022-04-04, 03:55:
dj_pirtu wrote on 2022-04-03, 06:33:

I don't know what to try next or just give up. If I remember right my previous v1.1 KT7A didnt work with Geforces either.

I'll test it for you... Got several different 6800 cards... None of them are the AGP 2x capable variants, but that shouldn't matter.

Tried so far:
Geforce3 Ti200
Geforce4 Ti4200
Quadro4 980XGL
Geforce FX5900XT
Geforce 6600GT
Geforce 6800GT

None of those aren't fully stable. In FlatOut2 it's crashing in minutes or when idling in desktop. Sometimes blue screen, d3d9.dll error, sometimes screen freeze or reboots.
Radeon 9600, 9700, X800Pro are all fine, not one problem.

Last edited by dj_pirtu on 2023-10-22, 19:32. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 184 of 344, by rasz_pl

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Have you recapped all electrolytics, or only CPU ones? This might be AGP power problem, DC/DC converter for it is right next to the FAN connector with caps between the slots.

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 185 of 344, by dj_pirtu

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rasz_pl wrote on 2022-04-04, 09:00:

Have you recapped all electrolytics, or only CPU ones? This might be AGP power problem, DC/DC converter for it is right next to the FAN connector with caps between the slots.

All that are mentioned in KT7A premade capacitor kit at badcaps.net.

Reply 186 of 344, by rasz_pl

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You can always slap a scope (or multimeter in AC mode max/peak) on AGP power rail and run the tests that fail to reject power problems.
Other than that I would try fresh install if different OS.

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 187 of 344, by dj_pirtu

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rasz_pl wrote on 2022-04-04, 13:30:

You can always slap a scope (or multimeter in AC mode max/peak) on AGP power rail and run the tests that fail to reject power problems.
Other than that I would try fresh install if different OS.

Did some googling this seems to be a known problem. On Abit KT7A 3,3V rail is coming straight from PSU to AGP. Geforce3 didn't post at all but when I swapped to another PSU it gives picture.

So this really needs a super strong PSU and I have only 350W ones which gives ~200W combined on 3,3V and 5V. So, tried different way and lowered CPU and chipset voltages, and downclocked FSB and CPU so those are stable. This way I can ease power requirements from a PSU little.

Still crashing but not at all so often. Getting a medical grade 400W PSU from a friend and going to try with that.

Reply 188 of 344, by rasz_pl

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dj_pirtu wrote on 2022-04-05, 08:21:
rasz_pl wrote on 2022-04-04, 13:30:

You can always slap a scope (or multimeter in AC mode max/peak) on AGP power rail and run the tests that fail to reject power problems.
Other than that I would try fresh install if different OS.

Did some googling this seems to be a known problem. On Abit KT7A 3,3V rail is coming straight from PSU to AGP.

Thats not the case. AGP 2х (3.3V) and 4х (1.5V) means there is a DC/DC converter like I said next to additional FAN connector with caps between the slots, those need recapping too.

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Reply 189 of 344, by dj_pirtu

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rasz_pl wrote on 2022-04-05, 09:51:
dj_pirtu wrote on 2022-04-05, 08:21:
rasz_pl wrote on 2022-04-04, 13:30:

You can always slap a scope (or multimeter in AC mode max/peak) on AGP power rail and run the tests that fail to reject power problems.
Other than that I would try fresh install if different OS.

Did some googling this seems to be a known problem. On Abit KT7A 3,3V rail is coming straight from PSU to AGP.

Thats not the case. AGP 2х (3.3V) and 4х (1.5V) means there is a DC/DC converter like I said next to additional FAN connector with caps between the slots, those need recapping too.

OK... Well I tried bunch of different PSUs today and no help. I'm going to get medical grade 400W from a friend and try with that one.

Changing AGP Driving Value seems to make some difference but still not fully stable.

And yes, I have replaced all caps and that didn't help at all on anything, works the same as before and after.

Been reading old "Paul's KT7A FAQ" and there's alot stuff.

Edit:
but still I don't get one thing, if there's something badly wrong in my motherboard then why all the radeons are working without a single problem. This really drives me nuts.

Reply 190 of 344, by mockingbird

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dj_pirtu wrote on 2022-04-04, 08:36:
Tried so far: Geforce3 Ti200 Geforce4 Ti4200 Quadro4 980XGL Geforce FX5900XT Geforce 6600GT Geforce 6800XT […]
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Tried so far:
Geforce3 Ti200
Geforce4 Ti4200
Quadro4 980XGL
Geforce FX5900XT
Geforce 6600GT
Geforce 6800XT

None of those aren't fully stable. In FlatOut2 it's crashing in minutes or when idling in desktop. Sometimes blue screen, d3d9.dll error, sometimes screen freeze or reboots.
Radeon 9600, 9700, X800Pro are all fine, not one problem.

Tested so far a GeForce2 Ultra and a GeForce 6800GS, both pass a cycle of 3DMark2001SE (edit: 6800GS looped 3DMark for a couple of hours since I posted this, no issues).

Specs:
Abit KT7A V1.1
450W PSU (16A on 12V, 32A on 5V, fully re-capped)
Ahtlon XP-M Barton @ 16x100, 1.55V (16x133 or 2133Mhz crashes Win98 setup, I'll have to look into that)
256MB RAM
Win98SE, DirectX 8.1, VIA 4.43
Forceware 66.94, SBA disabled, FW disabled (6800GS had to be force-installed with 66.94 because the card was released after this driver came out)

Everything seems to be working fine... I can test something in-between the GeForce2 and the 6800, but I don't see the point...

I think you have a PSU and mobo cap issue.

One odd freeze I got was after my first reboot post Forceware install... I went into device manager to see if my GeForce2 was listed (I modded a Quadro2 with the resistor method so I wanted to see if it worked), and the mouse froze. I'll attribute that to a fluke for now, maybe VIA oddities, maybe the GeForce2, maybe because I had fast writes enabled (disabled after that happened), maybe JMicron to VIA southbridge IDE, I dunno... I never fully trusted VIA and I still don't. (Fixed. Mobile Barton needed 1.6V, not 1.55V). Well, not fixed... Mouse cursor froze again after a reboot post-unofficial SP install... Looks like this WIP continues. Ok, found the issue... Replaced the JMicron SATA adapter with the good Marvell one, mouse jerkiness is gone now as well.

EDIT: You might consider trying different RAM... I forgot that this board only likes Hynix RAM so far at 133Mhz. Micron and Infineon cause crashing but Hynix is perfectly stable. At 100Mhz, they all work fine.

Last edited by mockingbird on 2022-04-06, 04:11. Edited 5 times in total.

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Reply 191 of 344, by mockingbird

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cde wrote on 2022-04-04, 07:06:

Yeah, that would be awesome 😀

Here you are my good man.

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Reply 192 of 344, by rasz_pl

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dj_pirtu wrote on 2022-04-05, 15:48:

I'm going to get medical grade 400W

a medical grade ATX power supply? Is that like space grade nail polish? 😁 Power supply either works according to its specification, or doesnt.

dj_pirtu wrote on 2022-04-05, 15:48:

Changing AGP Driving Value seems to make some difference but still not fully stable.

"driving" here talks about logic level buffers in the chipset and steepness of rise/fall times (https://www.testandmeasurementtips.com/basics-eye-diagrams/), more is not always better as harder driving produces more emi and can be self defeating.
You can try bumping I/O voltage (afair 3.1-3.6 range) as this powers the chipset. You could also try limiting AGP speed to 2x.

dj_pirtu wrote on 2022-04-05, 15:48:

but still I don't get one thing, if there's something badly wrong in my motherboard then why all the radeons are working without a single problem. This really drives me nuts.

nvidia might be more sensitive to power problems. Guessing is useless. You need to arrange someone with a scope to look at AGP power lines (ripple, sagging), and maybe even logic (eye diagram, will require a fast expensive equipment).

B24 - 3.3V aux, no idea what its used for
9, 16, 25, 28 - 3.3V, this is main power line and this might be coming straight from ATX supply
34, 40, B47, 52, 58, 64 - 3.3V or 1.5V this is the DC/DC converter closest to AGP slot, critical for signal integrity

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Reply 193 of 344, by mockingbird

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rasz_pl wrote on 2022-04-06, 03:27:

nvidia might be more sensitive to power problems. Guessing is useless. You need to arrange someone with a scope to look at AGP power lines (ripple, sagging), and maybe even logic (eye diagram, will require a fast expensive equipment).

No need to interpolate the issue. You're on the right track. Radeon X800 has an approximate maximum TDP of 55W, while the 6800 series is 85W.

Always re-cap your old hardware people... Otherwise you keep chasing phantoms.

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Reply 194 of 344, by dj_pirtu

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mockingbird wrote on 2022-04-05, 18:32:
Tested so far a GeForce2 Ultra and a GeForce 6800GS, both pass a cycle of 3DMark2001SE (edit: 6800GS looped 3DMark for a couple […]
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dj_pirtu wrote on 2022-04-04, 08:36:
Tried so far: Geforce3 Ti200 Geforce4 Ti4200 Quadro4 980XGL Geforce FX5900XT Geforce 6600GT Geforce 6800XT […]
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Tried so far:
Geforce3 Ti200
Geforce4 Ti4200
Quadro4 980XGL
Geforce FX5900XT
Geforce 6600GT
Geforce 6800XT

None of those aren't fully stable. In FlatOut2 it's crashing in minutes or when idling in desktop. Sometimes blue screen, d3d9.dll error, sometimes screen freeze or reboots.
Radeon 9600, 9700, X800Pro are all fine, not one problem.

Tested so far a GeForce2 Ultra and a GeForce 6800GS, both pass a cycle of 3DMark2001SE (edit: 6800GS looped 3DMark for a couple of hours since I posted this, no issues).

Specs:
Abit KT7A V1.1
450W PSU (16A on 12V, 32A on 5V, fully re-capped)
Ahtlon XP-M Barton @ 16x100, 1.55V (16x133 or 2133Mhz crashes Win98 setup, I'll have to look into that)
256MB RAM
Win98SE, DirectX 8.1, VIA 4.43
Forceware 66.94, SBA disabled, FW disabled (6800GS had to be force-installed with 66.94 because the card was released after this driver came out)

Everything seems to be working fine... I can test something in-between the GeForce2 and the 6800, but I don't see the point...

I think you have a PSU and mobo cap issue.

One odd freeze I got was after my first reboot post Forceware install... I went into device manager to see if my GeForce2 was listed (I modded a Quadro2 with the resistor method so I wanted to see if it worked), and the mouse froze. I'll attribute that to a fluke for now, maybe VIA oddities, maybe the GeForce2, maybe because I had fast writes enabled (disabled after that happened), maybe JMicron to VIA southbridge IDE, I dunno... I never fully trusted VIA and I still don't. (Fixed. Mobile Barton needed 1.6V, not 1.55V). Well, not fixed... Mouse cursor froze again after a reboot post-unofficial SP install... Looks like this WIP continues. Ok, found the issue... Replaced the JMicron SATA adapter with the good Marvell one, mouse jerkiness is gone now as well.

EDIT: You might consider trying different RAM... I forgot that this board only likes Hynix RAM so far at 133Mhz. Micron and Infineon cause crashing but Hynix is perfectly stable. At 100Mhz, they all work fine.

Thank you for this, gives me hope.

Last night I struggled with Geforce4 -cards, some notes:
-Geforce3, no picture at all
-Geforce 4Ti4200, gives crap from VGA-out and nothing from DVI
-Quadro4 980XGL, works somehow but does that exact same crashing as 6600GT or 6800GT

Special note: 3DMark01SE goes through but Flatout2 is very prone to crash in minutes.

And all cards works on another machine with no problems. Maybe my new caps was already bad, maybe I broke something when I swapped those...
Really need to get that oscilloscope.

BTW, took my Abit BF6 with 1,4GHz Tualatin out. Runs @148FSB so 1,55GHz, Geforce 5900XT, Voodoo2, Vortex2, Audigy2, ESS SOLO-1 and Gravis Ultrasound. Not a single problem. Intel BX forever.

Last edited by dj_pirtu on 2023-10-22, 19:36. Edited 2 times in total.

Reply 195 of 344, by cde

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mockingbird wrote on 2022-04-05, 21:40:
cde wrote on 2022-04-04, 07:06:

Yeah, that would be awesome 😀

Here you are my good man.

Awesome! For reference here is the link to your 1.0-1.2 BIOS mod: Re: Abit KT7A (KT133A/VIA686B), Athlon XP Mobile 2500+

Reply 196 of 344, by Kaisersoze

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cde wrote on 2022-03-12, 18:06:
Kaisersoze wrote on 2022-03-12, 17:48:
Damn, my tbred 2600+ (AXDA2600DKV3C) seems to be locked ( i cannot change multiplier neither from bios nor via software ) to my […]
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Damn, my tbred 2600+ (AXDA2600DKV3C) seems to be locked ( i cannot change multiplier neither from bios nor via software ) to my epox 8kta3 pro+...
So i tried a mobile barton 2600+ (AXMG2600FQQ4C) that came factory unlocked, but as i feared, even with a 05-2003 bios release, i've got troubles: i've tried so far 5x and 13x ( which is automatically set to 12,5x ) and win98 seems to work, but when i try to install winxp, the system inexplicably keeps rebooting just at 6% of copying files process )

Now, being my epox apparently not working with xp-m, which desktop t-bred model should i get in order to pick an unlocked one?
NB: as you could understand, i wouldn't mess around with L bridges, ecc...

Have you tried lowering the voltage? In my case, Windows XP freezes too at a random point (the higher the voltage, the sooner). At 1.35v it does succeed in the initial file copy phase. I believe this could be caused by either a defective component on the MB or a underpowered PSU (mine is modern and can only output 24A on the 5V rail).

Tried a 1.65v barton xp-m 2600+ (AXMA2600FKT4C) and now everything goes fine, even with winxp. Unfortunately my epox cannot be undervolted much further to make a 1.35v barton work with winxp flawlessly.

Anyway, now my next target is to find someone who can do a generous recap on my abit kt7a 1.3.

Reply 197 of 344, by mockingbird

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dj_pirtu wrote on 2022-04-06, 08:30:

In FlatOut2 it's crashing in minutes or when idling in desktop.

I just tested FlatOut2 for you. You need to be patched to 1.2 version... 1.0 crashes to desktop after a few minutes with no errors. With 1.2, I finished the desert oil field map in single race mode without any problems, and that must have taken a good 15 minutes (again, same spec as before -- 6800GS, but at full 2.13Ghz now).

Sometimes blue screen, d3d9.dll error, sometimes screen freeze or reboots.

My system is perfectly stable... there is something wrong with your setup... I can test GeForce3 and GeForce4 for you if you want, but I don't see the point. Hey, try this: go into SoftMenu and change your FSB to 100Mhz... Did that fix it? If it did, then it's your KT7A being picky with RAM.

BTW, took my Abit BF6 with 1,4GHz Tualatin out. Runs @148FSB so 1,55GHz, Geforce 5900XT, Voodoo2, Vortex2, Audigy2, ESS SOLO-1 and Gravis Ultrasound. Not a single problem. Intel BX forever.

Had a BF6 back in the day, what a great board. Unfortunately it had Cheapo Teapo capacitors which were bloated and caused the board to be unstable.

BX is not that appealing for a retro system. With this KT7A, you can lower the multipler to 3x100 in DOS, plus throttle further. Then you can run full speed at 2-2.4Ghz with an XP-M in Win98 which will crush that Tualatin for games like FlatOut2 (which really isn't meant for this platform).

Also got tired of fiddling with socket adapters...

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Reply 198 of 344, by mockingbird

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dj_pirtu wrote on 2022-04-06, 08:30:
Tried so far: Geforce3 Ti200 Geforce4 Ti4200 Quadro4 980XGL Geforce FX5900XT Geforce 6600GT Geforce 6800XT […]
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Tried so far:
Geforce3 Ti200
Geforce4 Ti4200
Quadro4 980XGL
Geforce FX5900XT
Geforce 6600GT
Geforce 6800XT

Ok, you may be on to something.

GeForce3 Ti500 - crash to desktop
GeForce4 Ti4200 8x - crash to desktop
GeForce 4 Ti4600 (NV25) - won't load Windows when driver is installed

So the 6800GS working may tell us something - namely that when an external power source is used as opposed to the AGP slot, the problem is diminished... So maybe voltage droop on the AGP is the issue here.

I'm going to try my Quadro 1000 @ GeForce 5800 and see if that works ok, since it is also powered externally.

Next I will have to try some of my other Socket462 KT133A boards.

EDIT:
Ok, so the game works with the following two cards:
GeForce 6 6800GS (probably also with 6800GT - can test that too if you want)
GeForce FX 5800

No we're looking at two seperate issues here that cause the game to crash... First, the game will crash for me with either of those two working cards seconds into the race. Again, I am doing the single race, desert oil field track... Upon re-launching the game and trying again, it plays through the entire 4 laps without any issues... So that's a minor compatibility quirk between the game and GeForce... Not a big deal.

Next issue is that the KT7A has some compatibility issues with GeForce3 and GeForce4 cards... Looks like that was fixed with Geforce FX and later series.

I have three other KT133A board models I can test in the coming months to see if this problem is unique to the KT133A or strictly to the KT7A... I'll report back.

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Reply 199 of 344, by dj_pirtu

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mockingbird wrote on 2022-04-06, 20:04:
I just tested FlatOut2 for you. You need to be patched to 1.2 version... 1.0 crashes to desktop after a few minutes with no er […]
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dj_pirtu wrote on 2022-04-06, 08:30:

In FlatOut2 it's crashing in minutes or when idling in desktop.

I just tested FlatOut2 for you. You need to be patched to 1.2 version... 1.0 crashes to desktop after a few minutes with no errors. With 1.2, I finished the desert oil field map in single race mode without any problems, and that must have taken a good 15 minutes (again, same spec as before -- 6800GS, but at full 2.13Ghz now).

Sometimes blue screen, d3d9.dll error, sometimes screen freeze or reboots.

My system is perfectly stable... there is something wrong with your setup... I can test GeForce3 and GeForce4 for you if you want, but I don't see the point. Hey, try this: go into SoftMenu and change your FSB to 100Mhz... Did that fix it? If it did, then it's your KT7A being picky with RAM.

BTW, took my Abit BF6 with 1,4GHz Tualatin out. Runs @148FSB so 1,55GHz, Geforce 5900XT, Voodoo2, Vortex2, Audigy2, ESS SOLO-1 and Gravis Ultrasound. Not a single problem. Intel BX forever.

Had a BF6 back in the day, what a great board. Unfortunately it had Cheapo Teapo capacitors which were bloated and caused the board to be unstable.

BX is not that appealing for a retro system. With this KT7A, you can lower the multipler to 3x100 in DOS, plus throttle further. Then you can run full speed at 2-2.4Ghz with an XP-M in Win98 which will crush that Tualatin for games like FlatOut2 (which really isn't meant for this platform).

Also got tired of fiddling with socket adapters...

Yes, it's v1.2, we have played that version from the day it was released at our lan parties. Thanks for trying that out. It's quite obvious my mobo has some issues. Bad luck is that my previous V1.1 had issues and this too. I'm still going to try just one more PSU and see if there's any change in action.

I didn't try @100FSB because if it's stable @145FSB with Radeon then why not Geforce. While testing I took it down to 133FSB and upped/lowered voltage on chipset and CPU (multiplier too), lowered memory latencies, didn't make any difference.
And by the way, I'm using Micron-sticks because those are the only ones that do work. 😀 But, yes, I'll try other sticks too.

And that's true, KT7A with ISA-slot and Athlon XP-M with setmul makes it perfect all-arounder.
But I must disagree that Athlon will crush Pentium3 Tualatin.
There's not much difference in 3DMark01SE or Doom3 and reason is SDR memory. Doom3 is great example, P3 1,55GHz gives 37fps and Athlon 2,1GHz gives 40fps. Memory bandwith really limits here.
BTW, FlatOut2 is really smooth on Pentium3. Too bad BX-mobos eat only 3,3V AGP-cards.